Wrestling thoughts that probably don't deserve

[World's Worst Man]

Joe and Danielson are better than Chris Benoit if Joe and Danielson would achieve better results performing in the exact same environment. I'm not so sure that's the case, although I do agree that Joe and Danielson are having better matches simply because they're put in a position to have better matches.

Anything other than results is just speculation though. Although I'd prefer to look at it the other way and ask whether Benoit could have the same quality matches as Joe and Danielson if he were working ROH. Obviously, 10 years ago, Benoit smokes both of them. Now, I'm not so sure, since he's older, he's had to deal with injuries, etc. And again, it's all speculation, so I don't think it really matters in regards to who is better right now. If I was going to speculate, I would guess that Benoit would be at least as good as those two in a similar enviroment. But I don't take that into consideration when comparing them, because there's no real evidence to suggest that.

 

Misawa?I don't want to put this contentiously, but can you explain why you think that? Because I'm not quite sure what you mean by "better," and I can't think of any way any number of WWE guys aren't better than even a good prospect like Joe or Danielson.

The simple answer is that their matches are better. And once again, that point is mostly related to the fact that Danielson and Joe work in an enviroment more condusive to good wrestling. More in depth reasoning as to why I think that would be that Benoit's offense looks terrible (which isn't his fault, but it is what it is), and his important matches seem to be repetitive (again, not his fault, it seems to be a pattern with the WWE style). Potentially, Benoit might be better, I don't know. Potentially, Liger is the best in the world. In my opinion, Liger's matches aren't as good as they once were not because he's regressed so much, but because of how the matches and the whole junior division is being booked. So if he was in a different enviroment, I think he'd be a truly elite worker again. But when discussing the present, none of that matters, because there are no observations that can be made to back up the claim that Liger or Benoit would really be better in a better enviroment.

[Guest Kevin Cook]

Samoa Joe doesn't even know how to work as a heel yet. I'm not sure how someone who doesn't know how to work as a heel when that's how he's booked can be said to have high match quality.

[World's Worst Man]

Joe vs. Styles seemed to work well enough as a "heel beats down face" match. People don't boo Joe because they like how he wrestles, but that doesn't mean the match was laid out poorly, nor does it mean Joe wasn't playing his heel aggressor role well. It's more a mark on TNA's booking, that they make a likeable guy, with great offense into a heel. Joe basically uses the same offense as always (because that's what TNA seems to want), but he doesn't play to the crowd like he does in ROH. For Joe to be a good heel, he'd have to get rid of a lot of his offense and become a scrappy brawler. But that doesn't seem to work into his "Samoan submission machine" persona. It's TNA's screwup.

[Guest Kevin Cook]

I don't disagree with that, but if he was anywhere near as good as you're saying he is he'd know the tricks that would allow him to overcome that. It's the difference between being a really good young worker and a fully mature one who knows what he's doing. From what I can see the light is only now coming on over Danielson's head, and he's better than Joe.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Anyone mind if I put my two cents in?

 

I personally prefer Joe to Benoit at this point simply because Joe matches are less by the numbers compared to Benoit's since he took up the WWE style. I find him to be more entertaining and an engaging presence compared to Benoit who while still a quality worker is no longer a top worker in my view. He's as good as he is because of his experience rather than his actual in ring ability which has been handicapped under the WWE style. On the other hand, Joe is as good as he is because he's where Benoit was 10-15 years ago. He is still learning different styles and nuances to add to his abilities and in turn is more versatile right now compared to Benoit who has lost a step due to injuries and the constraints set out by managment.

 

Is Benoit a better worker than Joe? All round, that's a definite yes. Does Samoe Joe entertain me more than Benoit? Unfortunately, yes.

 

Now, your mileage may vary, but I'd rather watch Joe in a match than by the numbers Benoit running through his routine of key spots.

[World's Worst Man]

I really don't put any importance on whether or not a guy can work both face and heel. I doubt Kenta Kobashi could work heel, and if he did, he certainly wouldn't be even close to the wrestler he typically is. If Joe can't work heel (and he really can't, without getting rid a lot of what makes Joe, Joe), then it's the bookers fault for trying to force him into a heel role.

 

Joe knows how to get a story over in a match, his matches are paced well, he knows when and how to sell (although dramatically, his selling needs some work), and his offense looks believable. He may not be as versatile as some, but I'd have a hard time finding many who were as good doing their thing and also as technically solid as Joe. I'd probably give Danielson the edge over him at this point, just because he brings the technical aspects AND the versatility. But too many WWE guys are lacking the technical aspects to get any love from me. And the technical aspects by far, are what I put the most importance on.

 

because Joe matches are less by the numbers compared to Benoit's since he took up the WWE style.

Perfectly sums up one of my two big complaints about Benoit's matches right now.

 

Is Benoit a better worker than Joe? All round, that's a definite yes. Does Samoe Joe entertain me more than Benoit? Unfortunately, yes.

Depends what criteria someone is looking for in a worker. The way subjective arts are, there's no right answer. Joe is a much better worker to me, because I put importance on the technical aspects of a wrestling match, rather than the theatrical. Someone who cares more about the theatrics would say Benoit is better. And that's as far as it goes really, because there's no right or wrong. We can debate what goes on in the ring, but if someone says something like "Smart selling isn't important to me", what can you do?

[Guest Kevin Cook]

I really don't put any importance on whether or not a guy can work both face and heel. I doubt Kenta Kobashi could work heel, and if he did, he certainly wouldn't be even close to the wrestler he typically is. If Joe can't work heel (and he really can't, without getting rid a lot of what makes Joe, Joe), then it's the bookers fault for trying to force him into a heel role.

 

 

He's an ugly fat guy who scowls a lot and kicks much smaller guys in the face. If he can't get heel heat it's because he's doing something wrong, I'd say.

 

Joe knows how to get a story over in a match,

Not if he can't play heel when he's supposed to be doing so.

[Bix]

Women's wrestling fetishists creep me out.

[World's Worst Man]

He's an ugly fat guy who scowls a lot and kicks much smaller guys in the face. If he can't get heel heat it's because he's doing something wrong, I'd say.

Crowd reaction in TNA has nothing to do with anything. The crowd cheers who they want to cheer, even if they're acting like a heel. The only thing Joe could do to alienate the fans, would be to completely dumb-down his moveset, and start working loose, but then he doesn't fit the "Samoan submission machine" persona. So either way, I'm sure people would be complaining about him not playing his role properly.

 

Not if he can't play heel when he's supposed to be doing so.

He was playing a heel in Styles vs. Joe. It didn't gain him any heel heat because the crowd cheers who they want to cheer, but he certainly wrestled like a heel would (beating the shit out of the face, dominating the bulk of the match) and it certainly got face heat for Styles. TNA isn't even all that important. The bulk of Joe's good work is as a face in ROH, where the whole "can't work as a heel argument" becomes moot. And besides, saying a guy isn't a good story-teller just because he can't work heel is incredibly narrow sighted. There are plenty of ways to get a story across that doesn't involve a face/heel dynamic.

[Guest savagerulz]

From Torch:

 

The Great Khali is considered to be so bad in the ring that he's been labeled as a danger to his opponents and a risk to himself as well. His upcoming match with The Undertaker at Judgment Day just may be his only high-profile WWE match before he gets cut loose because he's said to be that inept. Khali's recent involvement at WWE shows has been limited to run-ins for the most part because management isn't too keen on him having actual matches.

[Guest Josh]

From Torch:

 

The Great Khali is considered to be so bad in the ring that he's been labeled as a danger to his opponents and a risk to himself as well. His upcoming match with The Undertaker at Judgment Day just may be his only high-profile WWE match before he gets cut loose because he's said to be that inept. Khali's recent involvement at WWE shows has been limited to run-ins for the most part because management isn't too keen on him having actual matches.

Shocking. This could've all been avoided if they'd watched even one of his New Japan matches.

[Guest savagerulz]

Or maybe quit signing people on appearance alone. Nathan Jones, anyone?

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

Hey, good thing they just had him squash Rey!

[Guest savagerulz]

You know what I don't get - and someone, anyone please explain this to me - why in the hell would you put a guy you want to make money with in the ring before he's at least capable? Why?

[Coffey]

I guess it's like the whole baseball theory. You don't know what it's like to play in the show until you're at the show. That's all I got.

[Guest savagerulz]

I don't know, maybe wrestling is perceived as easy, even by people in the business. So people who don't really know anything about it think you can just get in there and do it (the writing staff) and those that do wrestle think they can carry anybody.

[Coffey]

Kind of in the same vein but what I don't understand is why does WWE feel the need to change what's working for the guys in the developmental league? For example, why couldn't Damaja come up as Damaja instead of as a Basham Brother? It's not like debuting on national TV and the extra road schedule and ring time and arena fans isn't pressure enough. They basically have to start all over in more than one way. They have to get over again, in front of a new, larger, more critical audience AND they have to work with a completely new, usually bigger saddled gimmick.

[sek69]

Short answer is Vince wants to give guys a WWE-owned gimmick they control the copyrights to.

 

Longer, more hypothetical answer is that Vince seems to think any gimmick that a guy uses outside of the WWE is too bush league. Ironic considering the company line is that they'll listen to any input the worker has, yet the record seems to show they ignore that input and put the guy in a clown suit and demand he get over.

[Guest savagerulz]

Kind of in the same vein but what I don't understand is why does WWE feel the need to change what's working for the guys in the developmental league? For example, why couldn't Damaja come up as Damaja instead of as a Basham Brother? It's not like debuting on national TV and the extra road schedule and ring time and arena fans isn't pressure enough. They basically have to start all over in more than one way. They have to get over again, in front of a new, larger, more critical audience AND they have to work with a completely new, usually bigger saddled gimmick.

That is stupid. It's a problem when you have on staff "writers." Again, the old structured system made sense. Something you did at a smaller levels works and work well. You bring that person in and run the same gimmick to see if it plays to a bigger stage.

 

Hell, when the writers think of something new they should try it at OVW FIRST and see how it plays before doing it at Raw.

[Guest Dangerous A]

Nevermind

[The Thread Killer]

That's supposed to be a GOOD read?

[Guest Dangerous A]

*I* thought it was a good read. Sorry my tastes aren't up to yours. Guess I'll go back to retardsville where I dont' know what the fuck I'm reading, saying, or doing.

 

Excuse the fuck out of me for sharing.

[The Thread Killer]

Holy crap dude...chill out and take a rest already.

 

I'm hardly the authority on what's good and not good around here, however I found that article to be nothing more than a poorly written opinion piece where he made snide little smarky comments about why the new ECW was going to fail...without providing any actual insight or new ideas.

 

You could go to any messageboard, and find something equal to that, or in many cases superior. I'd wager that half the guys around here could write up a better column explaining why the new ECW will or won't work. If you're going to have an opinion, it would help if it's something you can back up with actual examples rather than "OMG Heyman is over rated!"

 

I have no idea if the new ECW is going to fail or not. If McMahon carries it out the way he's carried out every other idea he's had since WM 17 or so, then it probably WILL flop...but it's too soon to say and as I said, that article you posted provided NO insight whatsover. It was a couple of paragraphs of Bruce Mitchell making smarky comments.

 

Then again, I don't expect much better from the Torch.

 

And if you can't handle people questioning your opinion, or if you can't defend your opinion and throw a spaz every time somebody takes a shot at it, maybe you should go back to TSM...but I wasn't saying you should.

 

I was saying that column wasn't a good read...and it wasn't.

[sek69]

Tony Soprano's new baby niece (Janice and Bobby's daughter) is played by Tommy Dreamer and Beulah's twin daughters.

[Strummer]

I was just reading a Figure 4 Weekly Flashback and can anyone tell me why Alvarez hates Mark Jindrak so much? That is such a random guy to constantly shit on.