Self-contained Chris Benoit and GWE Talk

[PhilTLL]

There's really no point in me going on about this, because I'm not going to change your mind, but driving to your doctor's office and taking pictures, and calling in sick with a complicated explanation for the murder victims are not the sort of behaviors that get one put in the lifetime hospital. Given the known facts of his and Nancy's life together and their final weekend, I think calling him anything more nuanced than murderer is an attempt to excuse something truly horrible. And I think the effort fits right into a sickening and familiar framework where we try to excuse criminals of a certain type, or of whom or whose work we were really fond.

 

Violent guy with violent history in a growing mental fog commits killings he feels guilty about and then suicide does not equal criminally insane and not a straight-up murderer. If longtime abuser Chris Benoit felt like he was turning stranger or more violent, he should have gotten out of the business and separated from his family and gotten help, not murdered them. Which, I reiterate, is what he chose to do.

 

But yeah, these are old arguments, and I didn't even vote in GWE. For the record, I could understand both voting and not voting for Chris Benoit, for reasons ranging from "this project is irrelevant in the scheme of life" (that applies to both sides, really!) to "this project is a document of workers, not a moral judgment" to "I do/don't like and can/can't watch Chris Benoit." Watching the guy's matches now does not make you bad, not watching them does not make you good. I just can't let that one argument go after all these years.

[WingedEagle]

Sometimes mitigating circumstances just aren't all that mitigating or relevant. I believe killing your innocent wife and child is one such case. There may have been medical factors that played a role in what transpired that weekend. Perhaps big, perhaps small. Just not sure why anyone would be so eager to look for an excuse or caveat here. Its not necessary to make a case for brain trauma or any other kind of affliction. Not every act needs a moral defense.

[JRGoldman]

I think we are getting dangerously close to using mental illness as a blanket of forgiveness for some truly heinous actions taken by Chris Benoit.

[PhilTLL]

I think we are getting dangerously close to using mental illness as a blanket of forgiveness for some truly heinous actions taken by Chris Benoit.

 

Apparently I have "reached my positive quota of votes for the day"? Damn.

[Grimmas]

Yeah, don't want to discuss this anymore, because my points are being lost anyways.

For the record I didn't vote for Benoit and don't watch his matches.

[PhilTLL]

Yeah, don't want to discuss this anymore, because my points are being lost anyways.

 

For the record I didn't vote for Benoit and don't watch his matches.

 

I genuinely don't believe they are, I think they're just being rejected. We know that Benoit was probably very fucked in the head, but that's not criminally insane. Very fucked in the head commits straight-up murder all the time. The law and the study of the mind both have a wide gulf between fucked in the head, hit in the head, plain old crazy angry, drunk, high, cheated on, betrayed etc and non-culpable insane. The way he committed the crimes and behaved during that time shows he was at least rational enough to have known what he was doing and chosen not to do it.

[The Thread Killer]

It's unfortunate that this is not the forum for such a discussion, because this seems to be leading into a very interesting debate about mental health and the moral and legal responsibility of people with mental health issues, along with the responsibilities of the legal system when dealing with people with mental health issues. There are some excellent, well thought out posts with valid points being made on both sides of the argument here, which I'd love to continue...but unfortunately this is Pro Wrestling Only and I don't want to get too far off topic.

[The Thread Killer]

 

I think we are getting dangerously close to using mental illness as a blanket of forgiveness for some truly heinous actions taken by Chris Benoit.

 

Apparently I have "reached my positive quota of votes for the day"? Damn.

 

 

The same thing happened to me when I tried to like El-P's post about Onita in the reactions thread. Who is this board to tell me when I've reached my positive quota for the day? Don't tell me how to feel, dammit.

[Luchaundead]

I voted for Benoit and I do at times still watch his matches especially early stuff from Japan for me it's less to do with if I forgive him for the crime and more to do with being able to separate the art from the artist something I would expect more wrestling fans to be use to at this point I mean how many murders are in WWE & WON HOF?

 

It's unfortunate that this is not the forum for such a discussion, because this seems to be leading into a very interesting debate about mental health and the moral and legal responsibility of people with mental health issues, along with the responsibilities of the legal system when dealing with people with mental health issues. There are some excellent, well thought out posts with valid points being made on both sides of the argument here, which I'd love to continue...but unfortunately this is Pro Wrestling Only and I don't want to get too far off topic.

If anyone is interested in having a conversation about this on a podcast I would be very open to it on Lucha Undead just pm me to set up the time

[WingedEagle]

 

Yeah, don't want to discuss this anymore, because my points are being lost anyways.

 

For the record I didn't vote for Benoit and don't watch his matches.

 

I genuinely don't believe they are, I think they're just being rejected.

 

 

Correct, the point is very clear.

[Grimmas]

Please explain my point then, because I really don't believe it is.

[goodhelmet]

Grimmas... as far as I can read, this is the post that is being rejected....

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

The reason I have trouble watching him is that his style directly lead to his damaged brain which lead to him doing a horrible crime.

 

 

Your contention that he wasn't a cold blooded killer is being rejected. He is a cold blooded killer. The mental issues talking point is what was being rejected by Dave and Phil.

[Grimmas]

Grimmas... as far as I can read, this is the post that is being rejected....

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

The reason I have trouble watching him is that his style directly lead to his damaged brain which lead to him doing a horrible crime.

 

 

Your contention that he wasn't a cold blooded killer is being rejected. He is a cold blooded killer. The mental issues talking point is what was being rejected by Dave and Phil.

Ok that may be fair.

 

He clearly committed murder, thus is a murderer.

 

What I am trying to relay is, that it is sad he didn't get help before he murdered. It's sad that all of the signs were there and he didn't get proper treatment with drugs, therapy and whatever it needed.

 

Just going "MURDERER" implies to me that people who are mentally ill should not have help and that we should wait till they do something and then lock them up. It stops the conversation and seems to ignore a lot of issues around it.

 

I wish we lived in a world where people being really fucked up in the head would be helped and not just left alone until something terrible happens.

[Danish Dynamite]

I'm not sure you guys are getting grimmas point. Because you keep talking about justifying and excusing and not once, not even close to it, did he ever state that (that I know off). He didn't even fucking vote for the guy.

 

But if you want to avoid things like that ever happening again, you need to understand the reasons behind it. Hence the need to explain, which is pretty far from excusing and forgiving (even though I've heard that that's the "Christian" thing to do... I for one am not close to forgiving him for his actions).

 

So if you wanted to discuss the issue or the comments made by grimmas (or me for that matter), then you should focus on what we're saying instead of what you want to understand from what we say.

 

It is extremely dangerous, and dare I say a little ignorant, in the long run to simply dismiss something like the Benoit murders as "just a sick, fucked up murdering idiot". It is, in all likelihood, the direct result of a mental illness, which might in other cases be identified in time and treated, or if it is the result of his in ring work, steroids and what-the-fuck-else that we can all only speculate about, then the conditions for creating said state of mind should be prevented in the future. Only(!) by opening ones eyes to this, and to the fact that there's more at play here than one guy being a latent fucking psycho, can we ever get anywhere closer to doing better tomorrow.

 

So yes, I do strongly believe Steven's point is being lost. Maybe even intentionally ignored or swept aside by some of you, who have already locked your mind as to what you think about this, because you somehow feel that even remotely discussing anything other than the extremely simplistic "he's just a fucking murderer and it has nothing to do with anything else" would in any way indicate that you excused him or was looking for a way to justify his actions. And for the last time: It is not!

 

And I'm not talking about sentencing if he had lived. Because I know that's a Pandora's Box to open. I live in a country that abhores the concept of the death penalty, and where treatment and rehabilitation is a major, even founding part of our legal system, so we probably come to this from two very different places culturally. So let's not go down that path. Let's just say: We agree that Benoit is guilty as fuck. We agree that there is no excuse and no justification. At all! ... But we apparently disagree whether or not there was a reason or an explanation and whether or not that should be taken serious, discussed and eventually learnt from.

 

And again: Neither Steven nor I voted for Benoit. And I sure as hell know none of us were making excuses for him.

 

I will obviously read your responses, if you make any. But I think I am out of energy for this debate. It's interesting, and it's interesting hearing from someone that come to this from a totally different point of view (just like it's interesting hearing from thos who actually do try to excuse his actions). I just don't have much more to add, and I did primarily come to this site for the wrestling aspect. I have daily interesting debates on morality with people irl, but nowhere have I found as much interesting debate and passion about wrestling as here, so I'll stick to that for a while I think :-)

But honestly: Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everyone. It's been relatively enlightening :-)

 

Peace out and see you on the wrestling threads

[WingedEagle]

First, that Colon stuff is all just rumours and was mostly spread by Brody friends. Is it true, maybe? However no proof of it. For all we know Brody could had been killed in self defense or in an actual murder. We don't know.

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

 

Here you say he shouldn't be called a murderer. But he was. He may have had mental illnesses or brain trauma that compounded that act. But I've yet to hear the case for why his actions should be qualified. Its also not necessary to qualify his actions in order to make the case that mental illness or brain trauma are serious issues. So don't.

 

 

That is a really great post.

 

Yeah, forgot about the abuse leading up to it. However, I would argue Benoit was ill probably his whole life. Stories about him working out so hard as a child to an obsessive amount.

 

My question is, if he wasn't in the wrestling business and had gotten proper treatment, would this murder/suicide had happened? Of course we can't know that... but I wonder. With proper treatment in terms of drugs, therapy and working in a different environment, you never know.

 

I've dealt with a lot of family issues with mental illness the last year and it really has changed how I look at Benoit.

 

Benoit obviously committed murder, but if he lived and didn't commit suicide I would want him getting treatment, not just thrown in jail to rot.

 

 

Here you question whether he would have murdered his family if he had been in a different setting. Don't these hypotheticals apply to every single person and situation -- murder, felony, misdemeanor, and every other act of good or bad in the world? What if Chris Benoit were born on a potato farm in Ireland instead of in Canada? What if I were born on a potato farm instead of in New York?

 

I've still yet to hear the case for why his actions should be qualified, only that there are qualifications. It remains unnecessary to qualify his actions in order to make the case that mental illness or brain trauma are serious issues. So don't. But at least this time you refer to him as a murderer.

 

 

 

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

 

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

 

I understand mental illness extremely well for reasons both professional and personal. I understand what you are saying Grimmas, and I respect the compassion that motivates your opinion, however I do not agree with you for two reasons.

 

Firstly, Nancy Benoit filed for divorce three years before the murders due to alleged domestic abuse. There is ample evidence to suggest that Chris Benoit was a domestic abuser before these murders occurred, based on things Nancy Benoit told friends and family members in the years prior to the murders. In other words, he was predisposed to domestic violence.

 

Secondly, Chris Benoit knew he was suffering from depression, since he was taking medication for it. However, he was also willingly and knowingly taking Testosterone at the same time. Anybody with even a fleeting familiarity with Testosterone will tell you that it causes increased aggression. Chris Benoit had to know this, yet he continued to take it. Not every person with CTE is predisposed towards aggression and murder.

 

I feel these two facts make him morally responsible for the murder of his wife and child.

 

There has been an interesting debate in psychiatric circles over the past couple of decades regarding people who are suffering from schizophrenia. It has been proven that people who are schizophrenic, even those who are severely paranoid, can be aware of the fact that they are suffering from an illness. The debate is regarding the responsibility the individual should bear for insuring they take their prescribed medication that would eliminate or lessen their symptoms. And if a person who is suffering from schizophrenia knowingly and willingly refuses to take their medication, are they then legally responsible for their behavior and any crimes they might commit in an alleged psychotic episode?

 

I believe people with mental illnesses have every right to lead normal lives in society just like everybody else. I think that claiming they have no moral responsibility for their actions is insulting them, not protecting them. Just because a person is mentally ill, it doesn't mean they can't differentiate between right and wrong. Just as you are morally responsible if you drink alcohol and drive a car, you are morally responsible if you know you suffer from a mental illness, but then refuse to get that illness treated or ingest substances which will exacerbate the symptoms of your illness.

 

I concede that Chris Benoit was mentally ill when he killed his wife and son. However, I feel that he was a domestic abuser prior to his psychotic episode, and that he is also morally responsible for his behavior leading up to that episode. I am not willing to absolve him of all responsibility for his actions. I understand the opinion of those who do, but I respectfully disagree.

 

 

See, I think it is possible to agree with both of you, because I don't think Steven absolves Benoit of any responsibility for his actions just because he, like you, seek to explain them. You didn't call him a cold blooded killer either, which I think was part of Steven's point.

 

But your post is very well written, very true and very interesting and I completely agree with you. I just think Steven might too.

 

EDIT: And ofcourse Steven beat me to it and for the record I still think it's possible to agree with both of you. Because I do. Completely, from what I can read from both your posts...

 

Thanks. You are right. My whole point is calling him a cold blooded killer is really missing a lot of things.

 

 

Many discussions are multi-faceted. Other factors may have played a role. You're clearly stating here that calling him a cold-blooded killer misses things. The implication seems to be that calling him a cold- blooded killer is wrong. If that's the case, what you're saying is clear. And wrong. He was. He may have had mental illnesses or brain trauma that compounded that act. But I've yet to hear the case for why his actions should be qualified. Its also not necessary to qualify his actions in order to make the case that mental illness or brain trauma are serious issues. So don't.

 

If you're not saying its wrong to call him a cold-blooded killer, then let that be. Save the energy for people struggling with mental issues illness and brain trauma who are not cold-blooded killers. That is a much more persuasive argument.

 

 

Benoit made up a story about a family emergency to get out of a PPV appearance right before the murders, and we're still going to try to claim that this wasn't premeditated?

Pre mediated by someone severely ill yes.

 

 

Here you qualify premeditated murder by pointing to his mental illness. This seems very clear. But he did commit premeditated murder. Once or twice. He may have had mental illnesses or brain trauma that compounded that act. But I've yet to hear the case for why his actions should be qualified. Its also not necessary to qualify his actions in order to make the case that mental illness or brain trauma are serious issues. So don't.

 

 

 

 

Benoit made up a story about a family emergency to get out of a PPV appearance right before the murders, and we're still going to try to claim that this wasn't premeditated?

Pre mediated by someone severely ill yes.

Premeditated by a guy who had a long history of abusing his wife to the point that she had gone from threatening divorce (2003) to predicting her own murder. The best you can say about Chris Benoit is that he chose the exact wrong industry for someone with latent violent tendencies and a predilection for poly drug use. That *maybe* all those chairshots and pills turned an average shithead abuser into a freakish family annihilator. Not a lot of cases in the rapidly expanding CTE literature about that.

 

CTE and mental illness are not absolution here and it's logically and ethically misguided to use them as such.

I'm not trying to dismiss it. I'm trying to say Benoit had been ill probably his whole life.

 

 

Why? He murdered his family. He may have had mental illnesses or brain trauma that compounded that act. But I've yet to hear the case for why his actions should be qualified. Its also not necessary to qualify his actions in order to make the case that mental illness or brain trauma are serious issues. So don't.

[WingedEagle]

 

Grimmas... as far as I can read, this is the post that is being rejected....

 

For Benoit. It's sad to see how misunderstood mental illness really is. Looking at him and going "MURDERER" is really not the reaction you should have. 5 years ago I would had been on board, however we are learning a lot more about mental illness know or atleast it's becoming something that people talk about.

Benoit had mental issues, probably his whole life, he dealt with depression and also dealt with an incredibly damaged brain. Yes he murdered his wife and child and then committed suicide, but it's not like he's some cold blooded killer. The guy was severely diseased. It's really a tragic and sad situation.

The reason I have trouble watching him is that his style directly lead to his damaged brain which lead to him doing a horrible crime.

 

 

Your contention that he wasn't a cold blooded killer is being rejected. He is a cold blooded killer. The mental issues talking point is what was being rejected by Dave and Phil.

Ok that may be fair.

 

He clearly committed murder, thus is a murderer.

 

What I am trying to relay is, that it is sad he didn't get help before he murdered. It's sad that all of the signs were there and he didn't get proper treatment with drugs, therapy and whatever it needed.

 

Just going "MURDERER" implies to me that people who are mentally ill should not have help and that we should wait till they do something and then lock them up. It stops the conversation and seems to ignore a lot of issues around it.

 

I wish we lived in a world where people being really fucked up in the head would be helped and not just left alone until something terrible happens.

 

 

Agreed -- but when your basis for that argument is someone who murdered his wife and child, you lose. Its just that simple.

[Grimmas]

Bringing up the fact he is Canadian is so fucking off base. I didn't vote for Benoit. I didn't like him that much when he was living either.

 

 

"Agreed -- but when your basis for that argument is someone who murdered his wife and child, you lose. Its just that simple."

 

So.. we should not try to help people who are sick so that this doesn't happen again or at least we can prevent it sometimes? I don't get your point.

[JRGoldman]

It seems a bit disingenuous to say that people who don't want to rank Chris Benoit on a Greatest Wrestler Ever poll are somehow against mental health treatment. Obviously rehabilitation is the best course of action, rather than punishment after the fact. I hope that the Benoit situation leads to some people getting the help they need, and in turn leads to lives being bettered or spared. That being said, the toothpaste is out of the tube with Benoit. His actions happened. It's a natural response for people to probe and search for answers and arrive at conclusions other than "he was sick".

[Danish Dynamite]

Come on... When he says cold-blooded murder it implies complete mental clarity. No matter what his actions leading up to the murders, it looks like he was definetely not completely "there". It's the very clear difference between him being devoid of empathy and a psychopath or suffering from some mental illness. The latter is pretty obviously the case. So technically I guess it's not accurate to call him a cold-blooded murderer.

 

He's a fucking murderer. No one disputes that.

 

I tried to make the argument as to why it to me is extremely important to qualify his actions (while, obviously, at the same time still remembering how fucked up and inexcusable his actions were).

 

Again, I think some of you are locked in your thinking, because of the horror of the murders. And I fully understand that. But debating them, understanding them with the intent of preventing in the future is not, in any way, the same as excusing them.

[Grimmas]

It seems a bit disingenuous to say that people who don't want to rank Chris Benoit on a Greatest Wrestler Ever poll are somehow against mental health treatment. Obviously rehabilitation is the best course of action, rather than punishment after the fact. I hope that the Benoit situation leads to some people getting the help they need, and in turn leads to lives being bettered or spared. That being said, the toothpaste is out of the tube with Benoit. His actions happened. It's a natural response for people to probe and search for answers and arrive at conclusions other than "he was sick".

Look again. Didn't rate Benoit not do I watch him

[Danish Dynamite]

It seems a bit disingenuous to say that people who don't want to rank Chris Benoit on a Greatest Wrestler Ever poll are somehow against mental health treatment. Obviously rehabilitation is the best course of action, rather than punishment after the fact. I hope that the Benoit situation leads to some people getting the help they need, and in turn leads to lives being bettered or spared. That being said, the toothpaste is out of the tube with Benoit. His actions happened. It's a natural response for people to probe and search for answers and arrive at conclusions other than "he was sick".

 

Who said that? If anyone said that people who don't rank Benoit are against mental health treatment I must have completely missed it. I know neither Steven nor I said it. And neither of us ranked him, so it's most likely not one of us who said it...

[PhilTLL]

WingedEagle and Thread Killer have succinctly presented pretty much all points I could. To wave the flag of mental health awareness and even make it the core of your argument on this topic is...let's say unappealing. As is claiming higher knowledge of mental health and illness for doing so.

[Danish Dynamite]

WingedEagle and Thread Killer have succinctly presented pretty much all points I could. To wave the flag of mental health awareness in relation to this is...let's say unappealing.

 

But what do you think we are waving the flag about? Excusing his actions? That's bullshit, 'cause none of us do. Giving a reason to rank him? Also crap, 'cause none of us did.

[WingedEagle]

Wave the flag for someone with mental illness who has not committed murder or a similarly horrible act. I just don't get what's contentious about that point. Find one of the likely countless wrestlers, football players or others who have brain trauma. Scream it from the hills. But please first confirm whether or not they have killed someone.

[Grimmas]

Wave the flag for someone with mental illness who has not committed murder or a similarly horrible act. I just don't get what's contentious about that point. Find one of the likely countless wrestlers, football players or others who have brain trauma. Scream it from the hills. But please first confirm whether or not they have killed someone.

What do you mean wave the flag?

 

I'm just saying we should learn from Benoit and use it to help others and prevent future things as much as we can.

 

Screaming murderer means we learn nothing and don't help anyone in the future, so it happens again and again.