The Essentials Of Buddy Rose In Portland

[Quentin Skinner]

Now that GWE is over and I don't feel as rushed to cram footage in of people/promotions I've never seen, Buddy Rose's Portland run is high on my priority list. Up to until a few hours ago, the only Rose stuff I had ever seen was the much acclaimed AWA feud with the Midnight Rockers.

 

What Rose feuds/matches in Portland are essential viewing or key to seeing what makes him great? I've seen the stuff with Piper get a good deal of praise. Would any of his tag matches with Ed Wiskowski be viewed as "essential"?

[AJS]

There's a ton of Buddy Rose Portland footage on Youtube, which i'm currently working my way through.

[Badlittlekitten]

 

What Rose feuds/matches in Portland are essential viewing or key to seeing what makes him great? I've seen the stuff with Piper get a good deal of praise. Would any of his tag matches with Ed Wiskowski be viewed as "essential"?

 

This just edges out Bock/Robison as the match of 1980 for me. Awesome rollercoaster romp.

 

[Quentin Skinner]

 

 

What Rose feuds/matches in Portland are essential viewing or key to seeing what makes him great? I've seen the stuff with Piper get a good deal of praise. Would any of his tag matches with Ed Wiskowski be viewed as "essential"?

This just edges out Bock/Robison as the match of 1980 for me. Awesome rollercoaster romp.

 

 

This was really good. Don't think I'd go as far as saying it edges out Bock/Robinson, but this was a hell of a lot of fun. I'm surprised that with all the love for Rose that's been going on, his tag work with Wiskowski doesn't really get mentioned among the elite of that era.

 

I started going through a bit of the 1977 stuff and Rose blew me away in his match vs Jay Youngblood. The rope running sequence they did was fantastic and damn impressive on Rose's end.

[shoe]

He had great matches with Martel, Curt Hennig, Piper, Youngblood, Dynamite Kid, Chris Adams. His tag run with Wiskowsski provided a lot of great stuff.

[Matt D]

Catch the big matches first, but I'd suggest at least looking at a few of the more incidental things, like, for instance, the Dusek match, where he works a total loser who dared to show some backbone against him and stop putting up with his crap.

 

(Angle to set it up):

Match:

 

Or the King Parsons match, to see how he could work a match with one wrestler to set up someone else's debut.

 

Or the Hector match to see how he works someone with stylized offense that was more of a novelty than a real threat:

[Goodear]

So I've watched some more Buddy in the past week including the Dusek match and it seems to me that it betrays some of the thinking that we have talked about with Flair about trying to have 'good matches' when he really shouldn't. Buddy bumps around pretty hard for a guy who is supposed to be a joke contender including dropping the second fall to a guy who is clearly below him in the pecking order. From this standpoint it almost makes all his other contenders look worse when he is taking the same bumps for Dusek that he would for a Piper. I actually think Dusek does an okay job in his role of throwing some really weak looking punches once he's underneath to highlight he's out of his depth but I don;t feel as though Rose should have registered them at that point. I think its the downside of Rose's style that his stuff is mostly reactive so to fill time, he has to take his bumps. Offensively he seems to be somewhat shallow with only the Robinson backbreaker and a knee drop standing out when he works on top. I think honestly Buddy seems to do better in tags as his stuff with Ed W (I'm not looking it up) against Piper and Martel seemed to have more life as he had more conventions to play with. I'm going to look at some more tonight if I have a chance.

[peachchaos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUKRhuum0ek

 

For some reason I really hate how the Portland Wrestling YouTube channel has everything separated into segments rather than just uploading the entire shows and putting time stamps for each segment. It's a bitch to download all those clips. Thankfully, some random tuber put up a mix tape.

 

I've only seen 80's Buddy so this seems like a good place for me to start with the 70's stuff:

 

Playboy Buddy Rose & Ed Wiskowski 3/31/79
Playboy Buddy Rose, Ed Wiskowski, Rowdy Roddy Piper & Killer Tim Brooks (2 interviews) 3/31/79 & 4/7/79
Buddy Rose, Ed Wiskowski, Roddy Piper & Tim Brooks vs. Adrian Adonis, Ron Starr, George Wells & Hector Guererro 4/7/79
Buddy Rose vs. Hector Guerrero 4/14/79
Roddy Piper 4/14/79
Adrian Adonis & Ron Starr 4/14/79
Buddy Rose & Iceman King Parsons
Roddy Piper & Vickie Williams as Piper ends up slapping Williams around 4/21/79
Buddy Rose & Ed Wiskowski 4/21/79
Ron Starr, Vickie Williams & Roddy Piper as Williams slaps Roddy 4/21/79
Buck Zumhoffe 4/21/79
Buddy Rose & Ed Wiskowski vs. Stan Stasiak & George Wells (end of third fall not shown) 4/21/79

[Matt D]

So I've watched some more Buddy in the past week including the Dusek match and it seems to me that it betrays some of the thinking that we have talked about with Flair about trying to have 'good matches' when he really shouldn't. Buddy bumps around pretty hard for a guy who is supposed to be a joke contender including dropping the second fall to a guy who is clearly below him in the pecking order. From this standpoint it almost makes all his other contenders look worse when he is taking the same bumps for Dusek that he would for a Piper. I actually think Dusek does an okay job in his role of throwing some really weak looking punches once he's underneath to highlight he's out of his depth but I don;t feel as though Rose should have registered them at that point. I think its the downside of Rose's style that his stuff is mostly reactive so to fill time, he has to take his bumps. Offensively he seems to be somewhat shallow with only the Robinson backbreaker and a knee drop standing out when he works on top. I think honestly Buddy seems to do better in tags as his stuff with Ed W (I'm not looking it up) against Piper and Martel seemed to have more life as he had more conventions to play with. I'm going to look at some more tonight if I have a chance.

The short answer is that Buddy represents something different than Flair. I'll try to write the long answer tomorrow. Very valid issue though.

[Quentin Skinner]

I know he's the top heel, but would it be fair to say that Buddy himself is a "joke" sometimes so it's okay for him to bump for Skip Young the way he would for Martel or Piper? I mean from his promo style, the way he storms out of the ring, and the way he tries to avoid people, he's all in on being that guy. It all fits in to who he is. He doesn't have the same dignity Flair did. From everything I've seen the last few days, he's exactly what people said he was, the quintessential stooging heel so I'm not really expecting him to act like a typical top guy would facing people lower on the totem pole. Now I know he can flip the switch and get serious, but from what I've seen this has been my prevailing thought.

[Goodear]

So I circled around to a second watch of the tag match against Ricky and Piper (frankensteiner!?), Hector, Iceman, and the 8 man. I think my earlier point where I thought Buddy did better when he had more tools to work with in tag matches hold true. The long baby face shine in singles matches is a steady thread throughout the matches and while it serves a purpose in the 2-out-of-3 falls match construction, it can be bit of a slog if Buddy decides to sit in arm bars that don't go anywhere for too long. His bumps can be dynamic and I think he would be a great Rock 'n' Roll Express opponent walking into drop kicks and drop toe holds. But I don't feel as though he demonstrates enough of a second gear like an Arn Anderson who stooges around in shine but murders guys once he's got an advantage. Buddy seems to work the same pace a lot so I don't get a sense of escalation where now things have changed and now I'm mad or scared or whatever emotion we need to see. He's emotionally even and it hurts match narrative for me.

[Goodear]

I'm moving out of the Portland Bottle for a minute. Here's an interesting 6 man from the AWA with Rose teaming with Doug Somers and Alexei Smirnoff to take on the Midnight Rockers and Curt Hennig.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-aalQE-ZtE

 

 

What's interesting about it is going in I thought we'd see some interesting stuff from Buddy as he's done well in tag teams previously. However I actually left the match impressed by Doug and surprised by how effective Smirnoff was. Smirnoff really only plays a cameo roll in the match and only hits about 3 spots but all of them (a diving headbutt, a leap frog into a big boot, and a jumping boot) all looked really effective. Somers for not being a hyped talent really looked good here and he seemed to be the one doing most of the interesting work with a pair of gutwrench stomach breakers being his highlight. He also fed the faces as well as Buddy did which is saying something.

 

Unfortunately I feel some confirmation here as Buddy is almost absent from the heat segment as he seems to want to work a more modern back and forth with Curt doing a couple rope running spots and a superplex reversal series. Again, I'm not seeing that second gear aside from a quick series of knee lifts off the ropes. I really want to see him get the advantage and do something with it. Instead he goes back to bumping way too quick for my tastes. He works in his rope tumble out of the ring toward the finish but I don't feel the delight in him being thwarted because he never seems to be successful. I talked about the reason that Rick Martel didn't work as a heel because he didn't stooge enough. Rose feels like he's all stooge and its hurting his appeal with me.

 

 

 

 

Buddy is doing job duty here for Kerry in his WWF debut. Buddy is obviously not as his physical peak here. But he does a good job at being an enhancement talent here as he starts off with a little smack to Kerry before hightailing it out of the ring. This element is something I would have liked to see more out of him in other work as it gives us a clear reason to want to see him bump like he does. And he does indeed do that as he allows himself to be blocked and reversed on a hip lock and a body slam. He clearly can still post at his advanced weight as Kerry gets him up fairly easily. Buddy continues to feed well and works in the Andre caught in the ropes spot before transitioning right into the rope tumble. I think you could argue he is actually upstaging Kerry at this point but I only think you would notice it if you went in with a critical eye 100 years later like this. I cannot imagine someone watching this at the time and having that thought. Kerry gets his discus punch and Buddy takes his full jumping bump to put it over. I don't know how much Kerry had left in the tank at this point but Buddy did a nice job of getting him over.

 

Back to Portland!

[grapplin' apple]

I've been watching Portland on Youtube the last two years, and I finished the '70s playlist last year and am almost through all of 1980. Buddy Rose is a revelation. I remember vividly watching his matches with the Midnight Rockers when I was a kid, and they stand the test of time as some of my favorite matches from that time period. After that, I thought he was a joke from the Buddy Rose Blowaway diet, his weight gain, etc. I listened to Dylan talk about him on a wrestling culture podcast I believe, and wanted to rewatch him.

 

Two of the matches I like the most in the '70s are his match against Jay Youngblood and the Dog Collar match against Killer Brooks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The aforementioned Adonis match and the this one are great: Buddy Rose, Ed Wiskowski, Roddy Piper & Tim Brooks vs. Adrian Adonis, Ron Starr, George Wells & Hector Guererro 4/7/79

[Matt D]

I still owe a reply here. I'll get it soon. Promise.

[goc]

 

So I've watched some more Buddy in the past week including the Dusek match and it seems to me that it betrays some of the thinking that we have talked about with Flair about trying to have 'good matches' when he really shouldn't. Buddy bumps around pretty hard for a guy who is supposed to be a joke contender including dropping the second fall to a guy who is clearly below him in the pecking order. From this standpoint it almost makes all his other contenders look worse when he is taking the same bumps for Dusek that he would for a Piper. I actually think Dusek does an okay job in his role of throwing some really weak looking punches once he's underneath to highlight he's out of his depth but I don;t feel as though Rose should have registered them at that point. I think its the downside of Rose's style that his stuff is mostly reactive so to fill time, he has to take his bumps. Offensively he seems to be somewhat shallow with only the Robinson backbreaker and a knee drop standing out when he works on top. I think honestly Buddy seems to do better in tags as his stuff with Ed W (I'm not looking it up) against Piper and Martel seemed to have more life as he had more conventions to play with. I'm going to look at some more tonight if I have a chance.

The short answer is that Buddy represents something different than Flair. I'll try to write the long answer tomorrow. Very valid issue though.

 

Matt has seen a lot more Buddy than me but I think the key difference between Flair & Buddy is that Flair is everything he says he is, he's got the robes and the suits and the Rolex to back up everything he is saying. When he was the traveling World Champ he might cheat but he was still relying on himself.

 

With Buddy he's kind of a fraud. He's good but not as good as he says he is. It's why he frequently has some kind of stable or lackey around him. He's a pasty fat guy calling himself a "Playboy" when he is really anything but.

[Goodear]

I liked the dog collar match with Buddy getting some nice color off the chain salvo from Brooks and using the chain in the mouth as a sleeper hold showed some of that vicious streak I was looking for. I think his pulling the chain taunt and dropping on Brooks with it was a bit too cute by a 1/4 and it would have been more effective to just wrap it around his hand and drop a fist. But that is a nit pick. I'm picky. No one likes me. Anyway, I think was the strongest singles performance from Buddy I've seen with the tag match against Piper and Martel being better.

 

I think the fraud thing works in a sense but Buddy seems aware that he is a fraud sometimes? It's hard to articulate but he's not as arrogant as he could be? I'm comparing him to a Larry Zybsyko who dripped with disdain and arrogance but could only back it up 60-70% of the time. And I know Larry is a great as well, but that's who you get compared to when you are in the running for the top 10 GWE. Im going to watch the Youngblood thing now and see how it works.

 

Saw it!

 

Buddy looked good but the booking was a bit backward and was probably hurt from watching it in a vacuum rather than in context. Jay comes out of it looking like a guy who couldn't beat Buddy with a referee in his pocket which is weird right? He's not a job guy here? Because Buddy owns his face and should have beat him in short order if Boyd wasn't actively helping him. I shouldn't feel like Rose is getting screwed and is justified in stomping Boyd in the head. It seems backward.

 

Just to be clear since I'm obviously being hard on Rose in this thread. I'm not saying he's terrible. He's not. He's actively good. I just can't look at these performances and cosign on him being one of the best ever. He's super good though.

[Quentin Skinner]

Just watched the Rose/Martel title match from 5/17/80 and it's definitely a contender for MOTY in 1980 . Absolutely loved this match and probably the best thing I've watched so far from Portland. That first fall was such great wrestling. Rose impressed me just as much as he did in the Jay Youngblood match I mentioned in an earlier post.

[grapplin' apple]

 

 

So I've watched some more Buddy in the past week including the Dusek match and it seems to me that it betrays some of the thinking that we have talked about with Flair about trying to have 'good matches' when he really shouldn't. Buddy bumps around pretty hard for a guy who is supposed to be a joke contender including dropping the second fall to a guy who is clearly below him in the pecking order. From this standpoint it almost makes all his other contenders look worse when he is taking the same bumps for Dusek that he would for a Piper. I actually think Dusek does an okay job in his role of throwing some really weak looking punches once he's underneath to highlight he's out of his depth but I don;t feel as though Rose should have registered them at that point. I think its the downside of Rose's style that his stuff is mostly reactive so to fill time, he has to take his bumps. Offensively he seems to be somewhat shallow with only the Robinson backbreaker and a knee drop standing out when he works on top. I think honestly Buddy seems to do better in tags as his stuff with Ed W (I'm not looking it up) against Piper and Martel seemed to have more life as he had more conventions to play with. I'm going to look at some more tonight if I have a chance.

The short answer is that Buddy represents something different than Flair. I'll try to write the long answer tomorrow. Very valid issue though.

 

Matt has seen a lot more Buddy than me but I think the key difference between Flair & Buddy is that Flair is everything he says he is, he's got the robes and the suits and the Rolex to back up everything he is saying. When he was the traveling World Champ he might cheat but he was still relying on himself.

 

With Buddy he's kind of a fraud. He's good but not as good as he says he is. It's why he frequently has some kind of stable or lackey around him. He's a pasty fat guy calling himself a "Playboy" when he is really anything but.

 

 

This is exactly right. Buddy is a fraud and a chickenshit. In fact, this is key to his character: he perfected the lost art of being a chicken shit heel and using constant justifications (and muscle) to excuse his actions. He's one of the best I've ever seen at this, and only rivaled by Buddy Landell and Bobby Heenan who was the master of it.

[Matt D]

This isn't a full answer, but it's part of one:

 

Portland was a very interesting place. It's a very interesting feel for a promotion. There's something welcoming about it. So much of that is Frank Bonnema blatantly lying in the booth about things like how many sell outs Stan Stasiak has had in MSG (which actually carries over to inflating young Curt Hennig's importance in NYC even after Bonnema's death) or the fact that the head ref, one who stymied Buddy all the time, also promoted one of the other cities and had a big flea market in the Arena. Then there's Dutch Savage being all over TV and Don Owen getting so frustrated with grandstanding loser leaves town challenges because they cost him money, or how he rationalizes the big matches due to the sponsors demanding them, and then, to give some credence to that, you see the sponsors in the studio, right afterwards. It's the fans mugging for TV. It's Rick Martel getting flowers and Bonnema saying that the reason kids get in free is because Martel DEMANDED it. And yeah, it's Buddy pretending to have gone to Hawaii for a few weeks.

 

The fans were in on it in every territory to some degree, obviously, but Portland was a crazy fantasyland, up in the corner, distant from the rest of the country. People have it right to some degree when it comes to Flair, but you also have to keep in mind that Ric Flair meant something different in 1982 (or 1985) than he did in 1978, and Buddy is pretty much the same thing even back when Ric was facing off against Steamboat for the first time and teaming with Valentine. He's not just a bullshit Buddy Landell version of Flair (as glorious as that version is). He is, however, a star in his own mind. He's also someone who's hugely dangerous. He's a squealing opportunist, but one who could absolutely go. He was protected. He won. He and his cronies often had all the belts, but he more overtly hid behind them than Flair did the Andersons (though that was always covertly implied). Beneath the charming lies and the BS and the mass delusion that surrounded Portland was the basic truth that if and when Andre came in, Buddy was screwed. If Harley Race came in, Buddy wouldn't really have a shot at him, not really. He was a big fish in a small pond, and that came through in his ringwork. He might have faced off against Jay Youngblood or Rocky Johnson or what not, guys who were known entities, but a lot of times, you came through Portland on the way up and would stay there for a bit (which I think is different than Memphis where they'd create very short term monsters and bring in very short term threats, along with the lifers like Dundee and Mantell and Valiant) and it was up to Rose to balance being credible and dangerous with making talent who weren't true stars and didn't come off as true stars, seem bigger than they were, not just in one night, but over a span of weeks and months.