General Wrestling Comments

[Loss]

Rikishi?

[Al]

Dusty borrowed Rikishi's moveset for a while, so the correct answer would be Michael Hayes, no?

 

Speaking of Dusty, I got the idea in my head that Mick Foley is our generation's Dusty Rhodes. Both started out as heels but became immensely popular, perhaps due to their unique looks. Both were used as transition champions.

[sek69]

The story in the latest WON about the events that led to Amy's firing are the most hilarious things ever written. The first strike was her being a general bitch toward the other divas, asking Layla El if it bothered her that she (Amy) got a push while Layla the Diva Search winner was "collecting dust". Strike two was her making sarcastic comments about Vickie Guererro, asking why she's a diva and having generally no clue who she was or why the company was keeping her around. The final strike was while her and Jimmy Wang Yang were doing a segment and when Stephanie offered up some suggestions Amy (who didn't know who she was talking to) played the old "who are you to tell me how to do my job" card. Stephanie proceded to inform her who she was and that was it for her.

 

What's funny is Johnny Ace went to bat for her after the Vicki thing but nothing could save her after that.

[Loss]

I love that she rolled her eyes apparently when Stephanie told her who she was, and someone apparently said that she didn't believe Stephanie when she told her her father owned the company.

[sek69]

Even better still was Jimmy Wang Yang staying as far away from her as possible. I can imagine him, an asian dude dressed like a cowboy, trying to act invisible while Amy was getting her bitch on at Steph.

[Strummer]

Just returned from the WWE House Show in Albany. Here's the report I typed up.

 

Results for 12/26 House Show in Albany, NY

 

by Patrick Conkling

 

This was probably the biggest crowd for a WWE house show in Albany since

the boom period. The upper deck was actually not tarped off and had

people scattered through the seats.

 

1. Cryme Time b Cade and Murdoch. Cryme Time was way over. Some nice

double team moves by Cade and Murdoch. Murdoch has lost a lot of

weight. Cade told Shad to "Get his big black ass in the ring". CT won

with their finisher.

 

2 Vladmir Koslov b Val Venis. Koslov is horrible. Boring and "what"

chants. Koslov worked over Venis' back with his first day of wrestling

school offense and won with a torture rack turned into a backbreaker.

Koslov tripped over the ring rope while exiting, which I assume will be

part of his "geeky" character.

 

3. Charlie Haas and Viscera b Highlanders. Basic tag formula with some

nice double team moves by both teams. Haas pinned one of the

Highlanders with a German into a bridge.

 

4.Mickie James b Victoria in a Woman's title match. Mickie took a nasty

over the top rope bump and crashed into the ring post on the way down.

They stalled to let her catch her breath while Victoria played to the

crowd. Widows's Peak reversed into sunset flip for the pin.

 

5. Jeff Hardy b Shelton Benjamin, Carlito, and Johnny Nitro in a 4 Way

ladder match for the IC Title. Yes a ladder match on a House Show. The

usual crazy bumps although not as spectacular as the ones they take on

TV and PPV. Hardy was ridiculously over. Benjamin and Nitro held

things together. Shelton fell from the ladder and landed on the ropes

on his feet and did a jumping clothesline. Great Spot and great heat

for the match.

 

Maria did the Kiss Cam for wwe.com. She persuaded two girls to do a

lesbian kiss

 

6. Jim Duggan b Eugene clean with the 3 point stance clothesline.

Duggan was way over. Eugene was squashed.

 

7.DX and Flair b Edge, Orton, and Dykstra. Big pops for DX and Flair.

They made it a no DQ match but the stip was rarely used. Basic six man

match with Michaels playing face in peril. Hunter hit Kenny with the

sledgehammer, HBK superkicked him and Flair put him in the Figure 4 for

the win. Hunter came back after the match and flattened Kenny for no

real reason.., oh wait.

 

8. Cena b Umaga by DQ when Estrada ran in. Cena was way over as there

were tons of kids and women in the audience. Umaga kept teasing the

spike but Cena would always escape. Cena had Umaga in the STFU when

Estrada ran in the for the DQ. Of course Cena beat both of them up and

played to the crowd to end the show.

 

Note: Steve Keirn came out to ringside about 3rd match in and sat by

Howard Finkel. He seemed really into the ladder match

 

A fun show with a suprise ladder match. It really was the biggest crowd in Albany for a House Show in forever.

[sek69]

Man, this Vladimir Kozlov push is going to be brutal. They couldn't even put him on TV in Deep South yet he's gonna get the big push at the top level because he's a big guy.

 

Seriously, what's the point of having a developmental system when they completely ignore any feedback they get? They'd be better off just sending a few agents to some indy shows and signing anyone over 6 feet tall. At least then they might accidentally sign someone good.

[Guest HTQ]

Does anyone here watch, or even know about, Assy McGee shown on Adult Swim?

 

Anyway, there's some sort of pretty serious legal dispute going on between the creators of the show and/or Adult Swim and WWE over the Vince McMahon's ass cartoons and the fact that the Vince's Ass bits are complete rip-offs of Assy McGee. What I heard is that Michael Cole was asking his staff at WWE.com for something that do that would amuse Vince and someone, clearly 'inspired' by Assy, suggested the talking ass bit. Apparently, Vince is majorly pissed because he's been told by Jerry Mc Devitt, his very scary attorney, that this is one fight they have no chance of winning.

[Loss]

The only really interesting point from all of this to me is that Assy McGee is a pretty lewd cartoon that airs on Turner Broadcasting, yet Bischoff has always argued that Time Warner insisted on TBS shows being for the family, and used that as an excuse for why they couldn't be competitive with the WWF. Obviously, that's not true.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

That doesn't really prove anything. TBS has aired Seinfeld and Friends, two shows filled with sexual jokes, for years now. But those shows aren't aimed at kids, and the Turner Standards and Practices people evidently felt that wrestling was. Is it that hard to believe that Bischoff's superiors would give him shit over making a Monica Lewinsky joke on Nitro or that they would insist on WCW shows being "family-appropriate"? Besides which, we're assuming that a show that airs late at night on Cartoon Network in 2006 is being held to the same standards as a show airing on TBS and TNT in prime time in 1998. The circumstances are a bit different. Although Bisch using that excuse is still as lame as Russo complaining about not being allowed to have Piper call Rhonda Singh fat.

[Loss]

I believe that S & P probably restricted them from doing some things, but there's nothing they would have done where they needed to be more lewd than a show like Assy McGee if they wanted to equal the raunch of WWE. WWE wasn't really any more wild than that, and prime time is usually the easiest time slot to get away with stuff like that.

[Loss]

And yeah, I always thought that was ridiculous too, because Piper calling Rhonda Singh fat wasn't going to magically make WCW the number one company.

[sek69]

"Assy McGee" is like most Adult Swim shows, a ridiculous premise that somehow ends up funny. Also, they get away with the more risque humor because they don't start airing those shows until 11:30 or 12 at night (AS technicaly starts at 10:30 but they usually have shows like Futurama on then). There's also a disclaimer that starts every block that warns people of what they're in for. In fact, some episodes of certain shows even warranted a second disclaimer (Fullmetal Alchemist and Ghost in the Shell both have episodes that have extra violent themes), so they're still definately covering their asses at Time Warner/Turner.

[Guest HTQ]

TNA is no longer going to be paying wrestlers for their hotel and car rental bills. While not all the wrestlers were getting their rental cars paid for, everyone was getting their hotels paid for. The best part? Production people will still be getting their hotels paid for.

[Loss]

That's not surprising in a promotion booked by Vince Russo. Russo really pioneered the idea that the writers and the producers are more integral to the success of a wrestling show than the talent that appears on camera. I really think the reason writers write is to get over their own value to the company most of the time. It's why they get overly cutesy and script every word. If they were handing out bullet points and providing a loose idea of what each show should be, someone would realize this only really requires 1-2 people and not a full staff and support staff and their jobs would be in jeopardy.

[Guest HTQ]

TNA have also refused to pay for Konnan's kidney transplant, claiming they're losing too much money. They did offer to loan him the money, which he would have to pay back. The Roldan family, who now run AAA, have told Konnan that they would run benefit shows to help pay for the transplant.

[sek69]

As heartless as it may sound, you can't really expect TNA to pay for Konnan's transplant if they can't afford to pay guys for their rental cars and hotels.

[Strummer]

That's not surprising in a promotion booked by Vince Russo. Russo really pioneered the idea that the writers and the producers are more integral to the success of a wrestling show than the talent that appears on camera. I really think the reason writers write is to get over their own value to the company most of the time. It's why they get overly cutesy and script every word. If they were handing out bullet points and providing a loose idea of what each show should be, someone would realize this only really requires 1-2 people and not a full staff and support staff and their jobs would be in jeopardy.

 

To be fair, in the 80s, Meltzer, in the WON, was constantly proclaiming that the success of the WWF was due to Vince McMahon's promoting skills and not the talent on the roster (except for Hogan) The mindset had creeped into wrestling before Russo showed up. Russo did revolutionize it though.

[jdw]

If they were handing out bullet points and providing a loose idea of what each show should be, someone would realize this only really requires 1-2 people and not a full staff and support staff and their jobs would be in jeopardy.

I would disagree with the 1-2 people comment.

 

Let's take TNA and make a hypothetical assumption that it actually was a one hour show that was "good" in telling storylines that drew in fans.

 

One hour a week, for 52 full weeks a year. Mix in the monthly PPV's for another 36 hours (3 * 12). 88 hours of "programing".

 

Again, assuming it's all "good" on some level.

 

CSI is "good" on some level. As in it draws ratings, and has writing that contributes to drawing and holding those fans.

 

CSI does about 24 hours of programing a year, give or take a few espisodes a year.

 

You can go over to IMDB or Episode Guides or to a CSI fansite to count up the number of writers that get "credits" for a year's worth of CSI. It's more than 1-2 people. A heck of a lot more.

 

Smackdown and Raw are two hours each, plus the PPVs, plus the house shows.

 

I don't think a "writing staff" of five or so people for TNA, Smackdown or Raw is over the top. In the entertainment profession, which wrestling *is* a part of, that's not over the top at all. It's pretty small, in fact, given the quantity of programing.

 

The key part of all that is that TNA, Raw and Smackdown _are not_ "good". They're pretty much shit.

 

I'm not sold that Raw and Smackdown are shit because of the primary, non-Steph & Trip "writers". I'm not saying they're any good, but that we don't know. As Dave has repeated for the last several years, the WWE is currently written to entertain Vince. I think Dave overplays that a bit, since it's also written to please Trip and Steph, and probably a few other lesser "powers" within the company. But we need to admit that those objectives put monsterous limitations on the job of the writers and the quality of the show.

 

TNA has been the same thing over the years. It's been a jerk off for a number of people, such as being Jeffey's personal kiddie pool for years. You could write the most brillant shit in the history of wrestling, and if it didn't fly with Jeffey, you were fucked.

 

Granted, I don't think the WWF writers have been all that good. I also think that what is considered "good wrestling writing" in a lot of circles really is dogshit writing relative to say daytime soaps. I'm not saying that to put over daytime soaps, but instead for a point. Daytime soap writing is considered one of the underbellies of entertainment writing. *It* is thought to be dogshit.

 

Even guys like Gabe and Heyman who get praised would be laughed at by *bad* TV writers.

 

Wrestling writing could be so much better with even "average" writing. But it's never going to happen.

 

 

John

[sek69]

The thing with WWE writers (and probably TNA now) is that if you come in with an actual love for the business you get ridiculed for being a silly mark and not taken seriously. WWE has created an atmosphere where you have to almost hate wrestling to get a job there.

 

There was an interview posted over on DVDVR with a guy who used to work in the video department, and it even extended there. I mean, I kinda get why they wouldn't want drooling fanboys working for them but who the fuck would want to be around wrestling that much if they weren't a fan on some level?

[Loss]

I would disagree with the 1-2 people comment.

 

Let's take TNA and make a hypothetical assumption that it actually was a one hour show that was "good" in telling storylines that drew in fans.

 

One hour a week, for 52 full weeks a year. Mix in the monthly PPV's for another 36 hours (3 * 12). 88 hours of "programing".

 

Again, assuming it's all "good" on some level.

 

CSI is "good" on some level. As in it draws ratings, and has writing that contributes to drawing and holding those fans.

 

CSI does about 24 hours of programing a year, give or take a few espisodes a year.

 

You can go over to IMDB or Episode Guides or to a CSI fansite to count up the number of writers that get "credits" for a year's worth of CSI. It's more than 1-2 people. A heck of a lot more.

 

Smackdown and Raw are two hours each, plus the PPVs, plus the house shows.

CSI writers are responsible for scripting 60 minutes of straight dialogue. Any scenes that aren't constant dialogue are blocked by the writers. Any physical scenes that require stage combat are also blocked by the writers. Scripting to that degree is not really necessary in wrestling as long as the wrestlers have a general idea of what to say and what points to hit. Overseeing the big picture and making sure that the weekly TV stays the course toward the bigger picture doesn't really require that much detail.

 

Nor does it normally get it. Scripts of Raw and Smackdown have been posted online in the past. The match layout has not been included in any of the scripts I've seen posted, and there are no stage directions. It's just lines.

 

For the CSI analogy to work, that would have to mean that the writers were scripting every move in every wrestling match, every word the announcers say *and* all of the dialogue. Yes, that would require a larger staff.

 

I don't think a "writing staff" of five or so people for TNA, Smackdown or Raw is over the top. In the entertainment profession, which wrestling *is* a part of, that's not over the top at all. It's pretty small, in fact, given the quantity of programing.

Does it take more than one person to say "These are the matches we want to do at the next PPV, and here's how we'll get there"? People fantasy book online all the time doing things like that and it's typically not a team effort. I don't think the problem with current wrestling is so much that it requires a staff of 4-5 people, as much as it is that they overthink things that really aren't important.

 

The key part of all that is that TNA, Raw and Smackdown _are not_ "good". They're pretty much shit.

 

I'm not sold that Raw and Smackdown are shit because of the primary, non-Steph & Trip "writers". I'm not saying they're any good, but that we don't know.

Right, because Vince and his inner circle, which includes Steph and HHH, determines the long-term direction and the writers are just scripting them getting to that destination in the most low-brow humorous way possible. I've never gotten the impression that the current WWE writing staff suggests who should go over or which wrestlers should be pushed. It seems to just be a matter of carrying out the vision that some combination of HHH/Vince/Steph have come up with. They write lines for wrestlers to say, but their job doesn't really seem to go beyond that in scope.

 

As Dave has repeated for the last several years, the WWE is currently written to entertain Vince. I think Dave overplays that a bit, since it's also written to please Trip and Steph, and probably a few other lesser "powers" within the company. But we need to admit that those objectives put monsterous limitations on the job of the writers and the quality of the show.

 

TNA has been the same thing over the years. It's been a jerk off for a number of people, such as being Jeffey's personal kiddie pool for years. You could write the most brillant shit in the history of wrestling, and if it didn't fly with Jeffey, you were fucked.

 

Granted, I don't think the WWF writers have been all that good. I also think that what is considered "good wrestling writing" in a lot of circles really is dogshit writing relative to say daytime soaps. I'm not saying that to put over daytime soaps, but instead for a point. Daytime soap writing is considered one of the underbellies of entertainment writing. *It* is thought to be dogshit.

 

Even guys like Gabe and Heyman who get praised would be laughed at by *bad* TV writers.

 

Wrestling writing could be so much better with even "average" writing. But it's never going to happen.

 

 

John

I'm still not sold on the need for writers in wrestling. Isn't having a promoter, a booker (that can be rotated frequently even) and road agents enough?

[sek69]

Also, the stigma of wrestling would mean most entertainment writers would think wrestling writers are dogshit even if RAW was the greatest program on TV.

[Guest HTQ]

I think wrestling would be better if it went back to being booked rather than being written. Writing leads to focusing too much on detail work, such as scripting out promo's word for word, and you lose sight of the bigger picture. The idea that you need writers leads to wrestling become too much like a scripted television show, and it isn't, at least not in the sense that requires people to write to actual scripts, which is what you have today. Ideally, you'd have one guy at the top directing everything and who has the final say on what happens, and you'd have three or four people working under him, preferably with different views, who would make suggestions on what to do and who to do it with.

 

Wrestling has been made far too complicated than it needs to be, and it shows.

 

On a different note, here is what JJ Dillon had to say about what Eric Bischoff said about him in his book:

 

It has come to my attention that Eric Bischoff has made some comments about me on his website posted on December 28, 2006.

 

I have not had any contact with Eric Bischoff since the closing of WCW in 2001. In 2005, I published my autobiography “Wrestlers Are Like Seagulls” and I did relay my experience of Mr. Bischoff in an open and honest manner, having worked with him for about five years.

 

I have not read the new Bischoff book, and based on the reviews it received, I do not intend to read the book. I have read a recent in-depth four part review written on the Bischoff book and his tenure in WCW, which was very thorough and factual. There was nothing really new in the story, but when you lay the whole history of the Bischoff era out there; what a stench! Eric Bischoff would have a full time job looking for a rock big enough to crawl under.

 

The only two truths in the recent Bischoff statement were that I do have a special needs child, and that Bischoff did speak to Kevin Nash, who recommended Eric hire me. The rest is incorrect.

 

For those that have read my book, I stand behind every word. As I detailed in “Seagulls”, I resigned from the WWF, I wasn’t fired, so I don’t know why Eric said he felt sorry for me. If he should feel sorry for anything, it should be for all the checks he authorized that eventually put WCW out of business. A lot of good people were put out of work as a result. I wonder if he feels sorry for them as well.

 

To clarify, I did not have any WWF pay records as he has alleged. That would be proprietary information and when I left Titan Sports I turned in all company property and records on the day I resigned. Prior to my first meeting with Eric, and after I left the WWF, I wrote down some notes from memory. The point I tried to make to Eric was that I had been involved in all aspects of talent management and I would therefore be a good resource to Eric any time he evaluated talent, and I could specifically give an informed opinion when evaluating individual talent compensation. Eric wasn’t interested in the knowledge and experience I brought to WCW. Eric was driven by an obsession to put Vince McMahon out of business. It is all detailed in my book.

 

As for character; I find it difficult to believe that someone with a history like Eric Bischoff, a history that includes the Gold Club incident in Atlanta which is a matter of public court record, would ever comment on the character of someone else.

 

At the time I contacted WCW, there was a hiring freeze and I was initially brought on as a consultant for the first month. Eric then went to Harvey Schiller and recommended that I be hired. I started out at $125,000. I was not given a contract until the third year. That contract included a hefty salary increase. If Eric didn’t trust me based on our first meeting in September of 1996 yet still authorized all of that, he must be awfully stupid.

 

I do, however, appreciate that Eric has now gone on record with his latest comments that state that I had zero influence over operations at WCW. I guess that means that Eric can take credit for the failure of the company. By his comment, I am in no way responsible.

 

Wishing you all a happy, healthy, and prosperous 2007.

 

“James J. Dillon”

December 31, 2006

[Strummer]

Going back a few posts (Loss), does anyone know if WWE writers actually decide who goes over in the matches, especially in the main events?

[Loss]

To my knowledge, Vince or Steph would make those decisions, not the writers. The writers would come up with ways for DX to make fun of the Spirit Squad, but not really make the decision to beat them.