General Wrestling Comments

[jdw]

CSI writers are responsible for scripting 60 minutes of straight dialogue.

 

I'm guessing you don't watch CSI very much.

 

I happen to watch it all the time, including repeats far too often (which seems to eat into wrestling watching time).

 

CSI doesn't have 60 straight minutes of dialogue. It doesn't even have a half hour of it. It actually tends to be, in its own way, as "action based" and stylized as a Miami Vice with dialogue often pushed down.

 

I selected CSI as an example of that rather than a sitcom, which tend to be very dialouge based as slapstick has gone by the wayside over the years. CSI attempts to strike a balance between "dialogue" and "visual action". I frankly think it does a pretty decent job of it, which I why find it watchable.

 

 

Scripting to that degree is not really necessary in wrestling as long as the wrestlers have a general idea of what to say and what points to hit. Overseeing the big picture and making sure that the weekly TV stays the course toward the bigger picture doesn't really require that much detail.

I disagree for a number of reasons:

 

(a) there are *more* weekly wrestling shows in a "season" of wrestling than in season of a TV series: 52 vs. 24

 

( on average, there are more hours in a weekly wrestling series than in a weekly TV series: 2 hours for SmackDown and Raw vs. 1 hour for a drama, and 1 hour for TNA vs. 30 minutes for a sitcom

 

© wrestling has a far deeper roster of characters even than an "ensalmble" cast drama. Count the number of people on Raw (not just wrestlers, but backstage non-wrestling characters, and also announcers like Ross and Lawler who have "characters" that are part of the show) and then compare it with CSI. I'll be generous and allow in the "countinuing chararcaters" who don't get opening credits like each of the semi-regular cops, lab assistants and the second guy in the morgue. It still isn't close.

 

One of the problems with "pro wrestling writing" is that all of those characters often don't have anything focused to do. Contrast this with the 1986 Great American Bash where up and down the cards were had wrestlers who had something to do. Many of them had multi-layered storylines. The MX were feuding with both the R'n'R and also the "James Boys", with Corny's side feud with Baby Doll. The R'n'R were feuding with the MX and the Andersons, with a side storyline opposite Flair. And on and on.

 

It's one reason some of us are kind of fond of that period. Heck, even Boggie Woggie had a focused feud with Paul Jones' Army. It sucked, but when it came on the card, you knew what it was all about because TV had focused enough attention to it.

 

These days, some have storylines, some don't, some have shitty storylines, some have passable ones, and frankly it's all in a blender where you don't really care about any of the storylines.

 

Nor does it normally get it. Scripts of Raw and Smackdown have been posted online in the past. The match layout has not been included in any of the scripts I've seen posted, and there are no stage directions. It's just lines.

I think you're looking too narrowly into what "writers" should be doing. Frankly, I think the WWF is as well, which is their loss.

 

WWF "scripts" suck. We all admit it. Why then would we use them as an example of another other than what sucks?

 

The script to Jaws 3-D sucked. I don't think anyone would cite it as an example of good hollywood movie script writing.

 

For the CSI analogy to work, that would have to mean that the writers were scripting every move in every wrestling match, every word the announcers say *and* all of the dialogue. Yes, that would require a larger staff.

No, I don't use the CSI analogy to mean that every last move be scripted out, nor every word be scripted out. I don't think you need that level of detail to require multiple people on the creative ("writing" for lack of a better work) side.

 

Keichi Yamada in a sense handled the "writing" of the juniors division in New Japan in the early and mid-90s (and far beyond that). He didn't to it all on his own, and he couldn't simply write a Cage of Death Match into a New Japan card-script, but it was largely his baby. 2-3 matches a night on the card. One "writer".

 

At some point, Hase took some responsibility for simple "writing" of other aspects of the cards. The Big Picture wasn't his, but he was free to pitch ideas about and for it. Another "writer".

 

The "Head Writer" was Choshu. The Big Picture was his. But he listed to others, entrusted others with areas of responsibility, and knew that things would get done.

 

That's not even touching on guys like Masa Saitoh, Masa Chono, Black Cat and others who had roles behind the scenes.

 

New Japan's Junior's division didn't have anywhere close to the "script" of anything on Raw or Smackdown. Other than things tended to make sense.

 

That's part of what I'm talking about when I say that a number of "writers" along the lines of those in a TV series isn't unreasonable.

 

Does it take more than one person to say "These are the matches we want to do at the next PPV, and here's how we'll get there"? People fantasy book online all the time doing things like that and it's typically not a team effort. I don't think the problem with current wrestling is so much that it requires a staff of 4-5 people, as much as it is that they overthink things that really aren't important.

The best fantasy booking that I've seen online was more than one person and was a team effort. One person tends to get lost in the punchline of their own shit, and what pops them. A strong front office has others involved in it, both pitching fresh ideas, fresh talent, and also in being willing and able to tell the Head Man when his shit is off the mark.

 

Admittedly, Pro Wrestling doesn't have any of these that work anymore.

 

That doesn't mean that it hasn't in the past, and wouldn't now. In fact, given the amount of TV time today and how it's different from Old TV (the old Squash matches and simple interviews), I think more than 1 Head Booker and 1 Assistant Booker is needed.

 

 

Right, because Vince and his inner circle, which includes Steph and HHH, determines the long-term direction and the writers are just scripting them getting to that destination in the most low-brow humorous way possible.

Of course. And other than Vince, Steph and Trip (and their pals getting over within the system), no one thinks the system currently works *on almost any level*.

 

 

I'm still not sold on the need for writers in wrestling. Isn't having a promoter, a booker (that can be rotated frequently even) and road agents enough?

I use the terms "writers" as the folks who come up with the storylines, block out the matches and non-matches on TV, the house shows and the PPVs. To me, the Booker is part of that equation as the Head.

 

I tend to find the current form of Road Agents to be a waste. I actually would pull the creative side of their task into the creative process along with booking and writing.

 

I also would pull in the aspect of going over what in the hell is going on in the matches into that process as well. I don't want three matches on the undercard doing ref bumps when the main event has a ref bump as the key aspect.

 

WWE and TNA "creative" are completely fucked up. Again, I'm not using them as examples of what works, anymore than saying that because they don't work it's proof that a creative staff of 4-5 people can't work.

 

I'll give you an example. The WWF has at times pulled in Soap Writers into their Creative Staff. It hasn't worked. I don't see that as "proof" that a Soap Writer on a Wrestling Creative Staff is doomed to fail, or that you could get nothing positive out of that person. It's nothing more than proof to me that WWF Creative is fucked up beyond belief, which is something that we all know to be the truth. I do believe that there *are* things that a weekly storyline based wrestling product could learn from someone who is both a decent Soap Writer and also a decent wrestling fan.

 

Soaps are the closest thing to pro wrestling when it comes to juggling broad numbers of characters, storylines and also producing a mass of content. Five hours of TV a week, week after week, year after year. Much like wrestling, there are some "basics" that work, and you see them getting repeated all the freaking time. Much like wrestling, you've got to mix up storylines throughout the show to appeal to different viewers. Like wrestling you've got to be willing to adjust to your viewers telling you something about a character you didn't see, and change plans on the fly - i.e. heels becoming faces.

 

But because they have five hours a week, 52 weeks a year, a number of "episodes" and storylines that put wrestling to shame, they can teach wrestling things about blocking out storylines, planning ahead, hell... even writing corny lines that fit within the context of your dim witted shows and fans.

 

Now the WWF is too fucked up on the creative side because of Vince, Steph and Trip to take advantage of things like that. But it doesn't mean that a *good* wrestling promotion couldn't. Or that a potential booker couldn't learn something by being sent to study a Soap creative process for six-months of more. Just the same as folks on the Production side could (and have) learned things from sports, movies, etc.

 

The WWF produces over 300 hours of first run television. That's not even touching on the hours of house show stuff. Think 2-3 folks could handle the "creative" side of that strikes me as naivie. If Vince, Steph, Trip and Shane dropped dead, and Linda suddenly made me the head of the creative side, there's no way in hell I'd have a group of 2-3 handling all that. I'd want my team, and I'd be willing to both delegate and also listen to them.

 

 

John

[Guest HTQ]

The bulk of people should be in production and the non-creative side of things. Creative, the booking, doesn't need a room full of people.

[jdw]

The bulk of people should be in production and the non-creative side of things. Creative, the booking, doesn't need a room full of people.

 

We disagree.

 

If I had a Yamada running my junior division, I'd want him in the room. If I had a Cornette running my tag division, I'd want him in the room. If I had an announcer with the depth of knowledge of Tenay, I'd want him in the room.

 

Numbers aren't a problem.

 

The quality of people, from top down, is the problem. The environment is a problem as well.

 

 

John

[sek69]

 

The quality of people, from top down, is the problem. The environment is a problem as well.

 

 

Agreed. If they had the same amount of people in creative, but they were actually fans of wrestling rather than guys in between sitcom gigs, there would be no problem.

 

I kinda like the balance they have on their creative staff now where they have guys like Michael Hayes and Dusty along with the Hollywood rejects. While the main storylines are still made to please Vince, at least we get some good TV along the way on occaison.

 

BTW, what happened with HHH supposedly being an 80s NWA mark? You'd think he'd be able to steer things away from the bad comedy and soap opera stuff. Maybe he's just biding his time until Vince kicks it and he gets a bigger say?

[sek69]

(second post since "edit" wasn't working for me)

 

I feel compelled to add another point as well. As much shit as Vince gets for being out of touch (not entirely undeserved), the biggest problem that WWE faces is that their head of talent relations spends more time signing clueless bimbos who end up pissing off the entire roster.

 

I mean seriously, it's amazing how much Johnny (I won't even try to spell his real last name) Ace's stunning incompetence gets forgotten about. There's tons of guys flailing around with nothing to do, and his pet project is hiring 20 more models like Kelly Kelly. He's managed to make half naked women boring to wrestling fans. That takes a special kind of failure.

 

Has anyone in the history of WWF/E gotten more heat for fucking things up and remained employed? Does he have nude photos of someone or what?

[Loss]

I think HHH being a mark for good or old school wrestling is a work designed to deflect heat from himself when things go wrong. HHH is a mark for HHH. That's it.

[Bix]

(second post since "edit" wasn't working for me)

 

I feel compelled to add another point as well. As much shit as Vince gets for being out of touch (not entirely undeserved), the biggest problem that WWE faces is that their head of talent relations spends more time signing clueless bimbos who end up pissing off the entire roster.

 

I mean seriously, it's amazing how much Johnny (I won't even try to spell his real last name) Ace's stunning incompetence gets forgotten about. There's tons of guys flailing around with nothing to do, and his pet project is hiring 20 more models like Kelly Kelly. He's managed to make half naked women boring to wrestling fans. That takes a special kind of failure.

 

Has anyone in the history of WWF/E gotten more heat for fucking things up and remained employed? Does he have nude photos of someone or what?

The whole point of signing the models is apparently to find fresh meat for Vince to fuck, so it's not really something to fault Laurinaitis for.

 

As far as how he's stayed employed, Meltzer once explained that his specialty is the act of "charming female authority figures" like Motoko Baba & Steph. Read into that what you'd like...

[Guest HTQ]

 

The bulk of people should be in production and the non-creative side of things. Creative, the booking, doesn't need a room full of people.

 

We disagree.

 

If I had a Yamada running my junior division, I'd want him in the room. If I had a Cornette running my tag division, I'd want him in the room. If I had an announcer with the depth of knowledge of Tenay, I'd want him in the room.

 

Numbers aren't a problem.

 

 

I think something got lost in translation, because it looks like we agree. When I said creative didn't need a room full of people I was talking about anything over a dozen or so. A small group of people, especially those you mention, would be ideal.

 

And numbers can be a problem, because too many cooks dilutes your soup.

 

You did give me an idea for a thread all it's own though...

[Guest HTQ]

TNA headed into 2007 getting a 0.9 for the last Impact of 2006.

[sek69]

Considering it was during the holiday week, that's not too bad.

 

TNA's ratings have been pretty good considering they've really only been on nationwide TV for like a year or two. You can make the case the ratings should be higher to justify some of their signings, but all in all I don't think Spike or TNA could have asked for much more.

[Guest HTQ]

The rating isn't so much of a big deal as how many of those 0.9 will buy the next PPV. The rating could be 2,9, but if the next TNA PPV still does in the 35,000 range then that rating means nothing.

 

Incidentally, the UFC special to hype their PPV did a 0.9 as well. That PPV is expected to hit just over 1 million buys.

[Guest HTQ]

Two interesting newsbits:

 

-Claudio Castagnoli has been fired by WWE, he never officially reported to Developmental. Claudio was not forthcoming about his VISA issues, and Mike Bucci (Former Simon Dean and Head of Developmental right now) took him at his word and in the end, there were problems with his paperwork. Bucci had some heat on him for not looking into things better, but in the end Claudio was punished as he was just released

The plan as of now for the Great Khali is to continue the storyline with Tommy Dreamer. It's meant to build Khali as an unstoppable monster who has to go through the ECW original to prove himself. It's set at this point to lead to Wrestlemania with Khali getting a monster push in the process, and culminate with Great Khali challenging Bobby Lashley for the ECW Championship. That's right, Khali vs Lashley for the ECW title at Mania 23.

 

-PWInsider.com

[JHawk]

I just said it in another forum and I'll say it here too.

 

If CM Punk misses WrestleMania so they can give the Great Fucking Khali a title shot, they can forget about my $49.95 no matter what else they put on that fucking show.

[Guest HTQ]

I don't think this will end up happening. They took Khali off of one PPV because they had no faith in him being able to have a passable match. It took a miracle for Undertaker to get a bearable match out of him in their Last Man Standing match. Lashley is no miracle worker. If by some fluke it happens, it has to last five seconds and consist of one spear from Lashley and then the pin. Anything over a few minutes and we're talking sub-DUD levels.

[Strummer]

According to the latest Observer, Donald Trump and Vince McMahon will be working an angle of "Billionaire v Billionaire" leading up to the Royal Rumble. They will be in the corners of their respected wrestlers at the Rumble. This was the idea behind the Vince promo from Monday. The idea was NBC's, not WWE's.

[Guest HTQ]

--We don't have a number, but Raw did a big rating on Monday night. The WWE web site claimed 2.5 million more viewers than usual and a peak of nine million, which would be the highest peak of any Raw show since the glory days if that's accurate. We should have the number later today. The only sketchy details we've gotten so far are that the rating was above average, but not greatly above average, but one of the quarters was through the roof.

The number might be big, and it'll look impressive on paper, but it won't mean anything if none of that big peak of viewers buys a PPV.

[Loss]

If that's true, all I'll think is "Wow, Cena/K-Fed would have drawn money on PPV." I still think it's a good idea to hire K-Fed and keep him around though. The rest of his life is falling apart pretty rapidly, but he could have a good future in wrestling.

[Guest HTQ]

All that bluster and it was only 3.9.

 

The quarters might be interesting, but the overall number has to be disappointing.

[Loss]

According to the latest Observer, Donald Trump and Vince McMahon will be working an angle of "Billionaire v Billionaire" leading up to the Royal Rumble. They will be in the corners of their respected wrestlers at the Rumble. This was the idea behind the Vince promo from Monday. The idea was NBC's, not WWE's.

 

Interesting. What was it that Meltzer said has opened up a lot of eyes about the current state of WWE that Meltzer mentioned, and who was he talking about?

[sek69]

This could be funny, cause Trump has proven with his Rosie O' Donnell feud that he can cut an effective wrestling promo.

[Loss]

I wouldn't want to see it headline Wrestlemania, but they should do Cena/Trump v Edge/K-Fed on a B show. It would probably do really well and get some pub for their top two stars that aren't DX.

[Strummer]

 

According to the latest Observer, Donald Trump and Vince McMahon will be working an angle of "Billionaire v Billionaire" leading up to the Royal Rumble. They will be in the corners of their respected wrestlers at the Rumble. This was the idea behind the Vince promo from Monday. The idea was NBC's, not WWE's.

 

Interesting. What was it that Meltzer said has opened up a lot of eyes about the current state of WWE that Meltzer mentioned, and who was he talking about?

 

 

I'm not sure. That info was second hand (couple of different boards). It could have something to do with the increase in House Show business recently which has helped morale. Paging HTQ

[Guest HTQ]

 

According to the latest Observer, Donald Trump and Vince McMahon will be working an angle of "Billionaire v Billionaire" leading up to the Royal Rumble. They will be in the corners of their respected wrestlers at the Rumble. This was the idea behind the Vince promo from Monday. The idea was NBC's, not WWE's.

 

Interesting. What was it that Meltzer said has opened up a lot of eyes about the current state of WWE that Meltzer mentioned, and who was he talking about?

 

The ECW PPV. There was so much negative feedback to the show that WWE were forced to accept something they almost never do, and that they're doing something wrong. Vince responded by pushing people harder, and now the feeling is that, aside from ECW, they've got their best momentum going for almost two years, since the Batista turn and his chase for the title.

[Loss]

Well, the house show upswing is impressive. I'm curious what is currently bringing people to the shows and if it can be sustained.

[Strummer]

Just to clarify, WWE house show attendance is at it's highest since March/April 2002