Wrestling - Japan / United States (WWF)

[smkelly]

This thread can be used for any amount of comparissons / differences.

 

Here's a question I've always asked, but have never found a clear and precise answer to my question.

 

Here's my question:

 

How can Japanese wrestlers take continous punishment (head drops / huge bumps onto unprotected concrete floor) over a long period of time (like Misawa / Kobashi / Kawada) and never require the kind of surgeries that WWF wrestlers receive (like Benoit / Austin / Edge / Rhyno / Holly / Taylor)?

 

Is it conditioning, actual wrestling knowledge......or what?

[gordi]

This thread can be used for any amount of comparissons / differences.

 

Here's a question I've always asked, but have never found a clear and precise answer to my question.

 

Here's my question:

 

How can Japanese wrestlers take continous punishment (head drops / huge bumps onto unprotected concrete floor) over a long period of time (like Misawa / Kobashi / Kawada) and never require the kind of surgeries that WWF wrestlers receive (like Benoit / Austin / Edge / Rhyno / Holly / Taylor)?

 

Is it conditioning, actual wrestling knowledge......or what?

 

 

Partly, it's down to the fact that the Japanese feds do several tours every year and the wrestlers get actual time off (to heal up and recover) between tours. I'd say that the non-stop schedule of the US feds does more damage than the harder-hitting Japanese style over the long haul.

[jdw]

Is it conditioning, actual wrestling knowledge......or what?

 

Massive amounts of drugs and a rather insane willingness to take the abuse.

 

In the match against Kenta from December, Misawa has a tough time even walking from the back to the ring. He comes across almost like a corpse. This was a guy who was a mess even back in 1996... and 1997... and 1998 to the point that after the Dome in 1998 he should either have been out for a year with a variety of surgeries or on the shelf for good.

 

Generally speaking, they're insane and we probably don't want to know the level of pain killers and other things they're on to perform... or simply function.

 

I suspect the reason we haven't had more deaths over there than here is that the "recreational" use level isn't as high, and while lord knows how many are addicted to large numbers of painkillers, they likely aren't as nutty at popping them as Terry Gordy or say Louie "Munching Somas Like They're Candy" Spicolli were. Not saying that's a good thing, as frankly most of them shouldn't be working at this point. But they do seem to have a way of not dropping dead, whereas their counterparts in the US are dropping dead. Misawa has been physically messed up for longer than Eddy Guerrero was - Misawa has several serious injuries that forced him on the shelf before Eddy even got in the business, and by 1991 was a mess in a variety of ways before Eddy's career started to take off. Misawa hasn't gotten healthier over the years since then. Yet he's not dead yet.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of deaths in that generation of wrestlers before they reach the age of 50-55. As in a higher rate than in the prior generation (Choshu, Fujinami, Tenryu, Jumbo, etc.).

 

 

John

[smkelly]

Good answers. They sound very reasonable.

 

What were the injuries Misawa received that you were talking about?

 

There's no doubt the amount of pain-killers they take is on a ridiculous level, and even on a near fatal level. Guys like Kobashi, and Mutoh, with their horrible knees would require suffcient levels of pain-killers to even cope with walking. I know from experience, considering I've torn my ACL and MCL in my left knee.

[smkelly]

Here's another question:

 

Why are American's more opt to entertainment, than all ring-action like AJPW, NOAH, NJPW (pre split AJPW)?

 

Would there still be a huge interest in american wrestling if kayfabe was still in affect, and still highly guarded and reveared?

[Loss]

There's a lot of bad wrestling gaga that's over in Japan too. It's just that you don't find Americans talking about that on a regular basis because we tend to try to seek out what's good. It's just a matter of pro wrestling meaning different things in different cultures because of how the audience has been trained and how promotions have conditioned their fans. WWE having the perception it does is mostly intentional, and is also the result of a massive 20-year+ campaign designed to reinvent the wheel.

[jdw]

Good answers. They sound very reasonable.

 

What were the injuries Misawa received that you were talking about?

He trashed his knee in 1985 and 1989 to the degree that he needed surgery and going on the shelf. Wrestlers tend not to go on the shelf over there, so it's usually a sign of something major. The one in 1989 put him on the shelf from March 1989 through January 1990, which is a hell of a long time in Japan. For reference, Kobashi tried to come back from totally destroying his knees after a little over a year out, re-destroyed them, and came back four months later. So Misawa's knee in 1989 was in pretty bad shape.

 

After that, it gets difficult to be specific because he took serious time off only in 1998. But he was a wreck in 1991 and through part of 1992 before finally seeming to get into his best shape of the era in 1993. In 1995 he had his orbital bones crushed by a high kick from Kawada. A similar injury put Hawk on the shelf back in 1988. The injury happened less than a minute into a match scheduled to go to a thirty minute draw. The match went 30 as planned, and Misawa worked his next scheduled singles match two nights later for the simple reason that he was suppose to win Carny 1995, so he felt he had to keep wrestling. Again, lord knows what he took to work the balance of his matches, which include a pair of singles matches with Taue that went 27+, the second of which is considered one of the best performances of Misawa's life.

 

By some point in 1996 he was noticably slowing down, especially with the knee and the back not seeming to be right. Going into the 1998 Dome if I can recall all the things that were fucked up:

 

* his back and neck were toast. The comp at the time was to Shawn Michaels recently injured neck, and people might want to recall what Shawn did after Mania 1998

 

* the knees were in horrid shape

 

* I seem to recall Johnny Ace cracked his sternum in their Carny match. I don't recall if this was a worked injury to take some pressure off him, but my memory is that Dave reported it as legit

 

* I seem to recall that his wrist and shoulder were screwed up as well

 

Of course he couldn't take time off because he was booked to win Carny, booked to main event the Dome in dropping the title to Kawada, the top star in the promotion, and had a big chunk of the book from Baba already at that point.

 

He went out after the Dome (May 1998) and pressured himself to comeback by September when business was weak under Kawada and Kobashi headlining the company without him. The was pressured by Baba to take the TC back in October at a time when Misawa wanted Kobashi to run with it.

 

There's a load more than that. There are "minor" things like Kawada giving him that massive scar under his chin in their 1996 Carny match, which he didn't take time off of. There are slightly more serious things such as in the Kenta match from December where he took a bump that pretty clearly screwed up his neck. Misawa isn't like Sabu where he picks odd times in matches to sell odd things like they've gotten injured. With Sabu it got to the point that one couldn't tell if he'd maimed himself (which was always possible) and when he was doing fake-shoot bullshit to get people to think he injured himself in a match and was being heroic going on. If Misawa starts yanking his head and neck around to try to work out a jam of it so he can go on with the match, it's usually pretty legit. And it's something that longtime watchers of Misawa have seen happen too many times over the years. The same with the knee getting tweeked in a match in a non-selling/worked moment, and Misawa trying to work through it.

 

 

There's no doubt the amount of pain-killers they take is on a ridiculous level, and even on a near fatal level. Guys like Kobashi, and Mutoh, with their horrible knees would require suffcient levels of pain-killers to even cope with walking. I know from experience, considering I've torn my ACL and MCL in my left knee.

I suspect it's ridiculous. But since not a one of these guys who is an utter mess has dropped dead with the exception of Hashimoto, I suspect that there is some reason why they are not dying.

 

I don't recall if there was anything definative on why Hash died. It's likely the combo of his weight, the bad effects of the "Ogawa Diet" he was on, likely impact of painkillers which he was no doubt on to work through a lost of injuries he had while his body was falling apart, and possibly some recreational useage.

 

But you can look at someone like Chono. His neck and back have been a mess since 1992. He rushed back from that since he had scheduled matches and plans with the NWA Title. It clearly changed him as a worker, but he kept rolling out there. It's possible that he took some time off prior to this, but the first time I remember him going out for a semi-extended time was in 1998 when he was such a wreck. Again, I suspect his back and neck were at the level of Shawn's or Benoit's when they took time off. Chono is still working. He long since passed being the worker that he once was. But he's still going out there, will take bumps, and obviously is taking something to get through it. The pain relating to the neck and back go all the way back to 1992. That's a decade and a half.

 

Yet is he dead? No.

 

Dave has started over the past few years to write comments about the painkiller usage over there, after it was semi-taboo from his for a long time. He doesn't give a lot of details, but at least it's now on the table rather than the old super human dedication to "work through injuries" stuff.

 

But still... they're not dropping dead in the numbers that we see here in the US. There has to be something beyond simply having a some time off between series. I suspect it's something about their usage being considerably more controlled (even while excessive) than it is in the US.

 

 

John

[smkelly]

Why are American's more opt to entertainment, than all ring-action like AJPW, NOAH, NJPW (pre split AJPW)?

 

Would there still be a huge interest in american wrestling if kayfabe was still in affect, and still highly guarded and reveared?

 

John, what is your opinion / answer to these questions that I asked?

 

Also, one of the major reasons that more American wrestlers are dying compared to Japanese wrestlers would have to stem from excessive non-pain killer / muscle relaxer usage ala cocaine, heroin, speed, meth, probably as well as the extremely over the top use of steroids. Now, I fully know that certain Japanese wrestlers use steroids, but they are nowhere near the level of consumption that the American wrestlers use. Also, considering the massive amounts of drugs, alcohol, and groupie sex, it's rather surprising that guys like Jake Roberts, Raven, and Ric Flair aren't dead.

 

I've noticed what you've mentioned about Misawa, he's always shaking something off, rotating his head / holding his neck, or shaking out his legs. I'm fairly surprised that Misawa, and especially Kobashi aren't wheelchair bound yet.

 

I heard that Misawa received a recent concussion against Morishima, yet continued in the match, and somewhat carried Morishima to a passable match. It's crazy though, concussions are nothing to mess around with, I've suffered through a few in my lifetime, and it's no laughing matter. I would how many Misawa's had in his career? Probably over ten, fifteen...?

[DGinnetty]

Just my theory, but I suspect that they don't drop like flies in Japan because of the schedule.

By having long breaks in between tours, and not really having a heavy schedule when they are on tour, the Japanese wrestlers don't face the prospect of trying to stay drugged up for weeks on end. That is most likely how the US guys develop their high tolerance for painkillers, leading to

the crazy amounts of drugs they take just to make it day to day. Here is a comparison of the tour schedules:

 

WWE-355

 

NJ- 114

NOAH- 105

AJ- 94

 

I didn't take the brand split into account, but it still appears to be a much heavier schedule for the WWE.

 

Eh, thats my opinon anyway.

 

Dan Ginnetty

[smkelly]

That makes sense Dan.

 

So far, we've collectively have came up with the following:

 

Work schedule

Pain / muscle killers / relaxers

Willingness to take the abuse

[Loss]

Is there as much emphasis on flat back bumps in Japan as there is the US? Mexican wrestlers are not trained to take flat back bumps and as a result tend to have longer careers. I think that's a big issue. Ric Flair has been wrestling for 30+ years, and I think at least part of that can be attributed to him not bumping flat on his back.

[Bix]

Don't the Japanese wrestlers tend to favor heavy drinking over pain pills, as well?

[smkelly]

No, I don't think they take flat back bumps. They usually tilt their bodies in the air and land on their side, mainly their hip region. However, it's kind of hard to compare the two styles (American / Japanese) because I don't see too many back body drops in puroresu.

 

Also, I think Japanese wrestlers take most of their bumps on their neck / head.

[Resident Evil]

I've said this before. The Japanese wrestlers are flexible. Flexibility is a factor in being able to take punishment. Even look at Benoit who had surgery but lasted longer than he should've before going for surgery. That neck was both strong and flexible.

[jdw]

Here is a comparison of the tour schedules:

 

WWE-355

 

NJ- 114

NOAH- 105

AJ- 94

 

I didn't take the brand split into account, but it still appears to be a much heavier schedule for the WWE.

The Brand Split had a massive impact on workload. Each brand initially worked a four night load, then three nights off:

 

Fri-Mon: Raw

Sat-Tue: SmackDown

 

Eventually, the Monday night SmackDown shows were dumped due to horrid gates (people stayed home to watch the free Raw). Other nights got taken off here and there, and wrestlers at times would be given nights off as well.

 

For example, here's Eddy's workload in 2002:

 

Jan - out hurt

Feb - out hurt

Mar - out hurt

Apr - 6 matches + 1 run-in

May - 14 matches on 13 cards (one quicky Heat match)

Jun - 16 matches on 15 cards

Jul - 17 matches on 16 cards + 2 quicky Hardcore Title spots

Aug - 15 matches on 14 cards

Sep - 14 matches

Oct - 11 matches + 1 run-in

Nov - 16 matches on 15 cards

Dec - 10 matches

 

I suspect that Graham might be missing a handful of cards, but not likely very many. I think he's got the WON's from that period, and Dave had all the cards by that point.

 

Anyway, if I were to carry on into 2003 until Eddy's death, I don't think we're going to see a much higher level of matches per month. He largely stuck to SmackDown, and while by 2005 they would on occassion book Monday night cards, they often wouldn't. Just eyeballing Jan and Feb 2005, I see 22 matches.

 

Off the top of my head, I don't recall the WCW schedule and whether they worked 6-7 days a week. I seem to recall that the promotion didn't run that often, though in the back of my head I recall that they gave lighter schedules to the top guys while making folks like Eddy work more shows. The WWF was working more nights a week when Eddy jumped there with the Radicals, but we also need to remember that he took the double hit - first injuring the arm on almost his first night in that put him on the shelf for quite a while, and then the dope issues that got him booted from the promotion. Going backwards in WCW, he had the long stretch out after the car injury.

 

I strongly suspect that all in all if we could track the matches each worked from January 1995 (when Eddy stopped working regularly in Mexico after the Peso took the hit) until 11/08/05 when he had his last match, we'd find that Misawa probably worked in the same neighborhood or possibly more matches than Eddy. NOAH works a shorter schedule than AJPW did in Misawa's time there. I think we'd find Eddy work shorter matches on average. It's quite probably that Eddy worked more singles matches, but he worked a lot more tag matches than one might think, especially in the WWE. He also worked a fair number of short Nitro-style matches in both his WCW and WWE career. So...

 

I don't think schedule explains why the younger Eddy is dead and Misawa is still selling out Budokan in World Title matches.

 

The worst of the WWF and Crockett/WCW schedule was back in the 80s and early-to-mid 90s. I'd have to check to see when the WWF went to the shorter weekly schedules... I think it was not long before the Brand Split. But by the mid-90s the WWF got a bit more sane in setting up their schedules to have less long distance criss crossing the country. A large part of that was that they stopped running their major buildings on a monthly basis and could get even more "nodal" on setting up the schedule.

 

What's interesting is that it seems like more guys are dropping dead *after* the schedule started easing up than guys back in the days of the psycotic schedules. Eddy and Pillman dropped dead. Ricky Morton and Tully Blanchard didn't in the 80s. You'd have some Gino's dying, but that really couldn't be chalked up to a WWF 80s style schedule. Basically he just partied his ass off far too much. Same for David Von Erich.

 

So I can't really chalked up the radical difference in death rates in the US vs. Japan to the schedule. It may possibly be a positive to run "series" with longer breaks between them as opposed to running a four day, three match series over a weekend then having three days off as the WWF does now. But I think there's also little doubt that someone like Misawa probably has a tough time even getting out of bed and functioning on an "off day" without medicating himself. Perhaps he's able to get by with less on off days than the ones that he works. But that would in theory be the same as in the US where they get three off days every week.

 

I go back to what I said earlier - I think that the usage is more "controlled" in Japan, and the recreational use is likely way down. It's hard to see Kobashi sitting on the couch chewing down 30 somas like Louie would do over a period of time. While I suspect that it's almost certain that Kobashi takes an amount of painkillers on a daily basis simply to function that would be unhealthy for a normal human being, I'm willing to bet it's a far lower level than say Kurt Angle was doing at his most stoned level. And they're not likely mixing in the degree of recreational dope that the US guys are. And I think that's probably what's keeping the death rates down.

 

 

John

[jdw]

I've said this before. The Japanese wrestlers are flexible. Flexibility is a factor in being able to take punishment. Even look at Benoit who had surgery but lasted longer than he should've before going for surgery. That neck was both strong and flexible.

 

I don't recall buy this one. Kobashi isn't especially flexible, and never really was. I had the pleasure of watching Benoit run laps around a Japanese arena in 1995 hours before a card, and his flexibility was terrible relative to what it had been because he was juiced so out of his mind. Mini-Hawk was the comment that the person I was sitting next to made, and he'd been watching Benoit's career longer than just about anyone.

 

Shawn was more flexible than Hawk. Shawn went on the shelve, and Hawk never really did until he dropped dead.

 

Animal has a similar "neck strength" to Hawk, and probably was the more flexible of the two (Hawk was really overly stiff in movement). Animal is the one that went on the shelf for years with the back.

 

Benoit went on the shelf with the neck. Edge went on the shelf with the neck. Angle went on the shelf with the neck. Liger hasn't. Why? You've got a variety of body sizes and types there, along with differences in flexibility. Throw in Arn and Malenko as well.

 

Liger's been maimed a lot in his career, but it's hard to figure out why the neck hasn't gone. More than that, it's not like many Japanese wrestlers have gone out to the neck surgeries that we have here in the US. Even among guys working a more impact style, and not exactly being very flexible.

 

 

John

[Resident Evil]

 

I've said this before. The Japanese wrestlers are flexible. Flexibility is a factor in being able to take punishment. Even look at Benoit who had surgery but lasted longer than he should've before going for surgery. That neck was both strong and flexible.

 

I don't recall buy this one. Kobashi isn't especially flexible, and never really was. I had the pleasure of watching Benoit run laps around a Japanese arena in 1995 hours before a card, and his flexibility was terrible relative to what it had been because he was juiced so out of his mind. Mini-Hawk was the comment that the person I was sitting next to made, and he'd been watching Benoit's career longer than just about anyone.

 

Shawn was more flexible than Hawk. Shawn went on the shelve, and Hawk never really did until he dropped dead.

 

Animal has a similar "neck strength" to Hawk, and probably was the more flexible of the two (Hawk was really overly stiff in movement). Animal is the one that went on the shelf for years with the back.

 

Benoit went on the shelf with the neck. Edge went on the shelf with the neck. Angle went on the shelf with the neck. Liger hasn't. Why? You've got a variety of body sizes and types there, along with differences in flexibility. Throw in Arn and Malenko as well.

 

Liger's been maimed a lot in his career, but it's hard to figure out why the neck hasn't gone. More than that, it's not like many Japanese wrestlers have gone out to the neck surgeries that we have here in the US. Even among guys working a more impact style, and not exactly being very flexible.

 

 

John

 

Well obviously, some people are going to get lucky and others aren't. That's just the way the ball game works.

 

Benoit was always very flexible though roids or no roids. He still is to this day which is pretty amazing. Oh yeah, why was it a pleasure to see Benoit do laps around the building? I'm curious on that.

 

 

In Kobashi's case he is more flexible than your average big name wrestler. And he's got a super human neck that is not stiff. Even the sides of the neck(which almost nobody works on) are extremely strong.

 

But in flexibility's defence we can look at the cases of Manami Toyota and RVD. I take Benoit as a good example too because he went through a lot as well. Toyota should be crippled beyond belief. She was working the crazy AJW schedule and wrestling a style that would've put others in a wheelchair. However, she isn't. She is also the most flexible wrestler that I've ever seen.

 

You get injured more when you're not flexible. That includes people who aren't wrestlers as well. It's just the way it is all other factors being equal. The Japanese train their trainees that way for flexibility and I think that's a big reason why they get away with doing what they do. Can we really say for example that John Cena could take the damage that Misawa did if he was on a similar schedule? Could Mick Foley as insane as he was takes Misawa's head bumps? No, I don't think so and the reason is that they're not as flexible.

 

 

But in saying all this, one other thing we have to consider is that the body can adapt. I believe this is very signifigant when we're talking this stuff and it's something we've forgotten to talk about so far.

[kjh]

Benoit went on the shelf with the neck. Edge went on the shelf with the neck. Angle went on the shelf with the neck. Liger hasn't. Why?

I'd say all those crazy gimmick matches don't help. Liger never did anything as nutty as taking bumps and doing diving headbutts or moonsaults off the top of cages or ladders. And though his style was very impactful, he never went into suplex overkill mode like Angle and the others did.

[Resident Evil]

Benoit was hurt some already but he apparantly got hurt bad during TLC III when he took the bump on the table though I don't think he felt it to after the match was over. That's all it takes. Just 1 bad movement. 1 wrong moment. Stuff happens. One day a bump won't bother you in the least. The next day you take the exact same bump and you find your career over.

 

Lyger's seemingly been lucky with his neck but even in saying that do we really know how hurt he actually is?

[Loss]

There still may be more to it than the gimmick matches, considering that guys like Kevin Nash who haven't exactly wrestled a very physical style have gone through the same surgery.

[Resident Evil]

There still may be more to it than the gimmick matches, considering that guys like Kevin Nash who haven't exactly wrestled a very physical style have gone through the same surgery.

 

Nash is injury prone. I don't think the guys too flexible and I believe he even had multiple problems (perhaps several surgeries) with his knees before he even got into wrestling.

[jdw]

Benoit was always very flexible though roids or no roids. He still is to this day which is pretty amazing. Oh yeah, why was it a pleasure to see Benoit do laps around the building? I'm curious on that.

Because it was both funny and cringe-worthy to watch a stiff Wild Pegasus do laps like a mini-Hawk.

 

 

In Kobashi's case he is more flexible than your average big name wrestler. And he's got a super human neck that is not stiff. Even the sides of the neck(which almost nobody works on) are extremely strong.

I honestly don't think Kenta was more flexible than say Edge. And his neck, for his size, doesn't look any stronger than Benoit's. Those two blew their necks out. Kenta probably has as well, but as far as we know hasn't had surgery.

 

Of course this doesn't go to the fact that Eddy is dead, and he didn't die for a lack of "flexibility" and "great neck strength". And flexibility and neck strength hasn't kept Misawa from being fucked up beyond belief.

 

 

But in flexibility's defence we can look at the cases of Manami Toyota and RVD. I take Benoit as a good example too because he went through a lot as well. Toyota should be crippled beyond belief. She was working the crazy AJW schedule and wrestling a style that would've put others in a wheelchair. However, she isn't. She is also the most flexible wrestler that I've ever seen.

Kikuchi was an amazingly flexible wrestler. He was a mess by 1993.

 

For whatever it's worth, Plum was probably more flexible than Kobashi. One of them happens to be dead.

 

I think you're better off heading back to the "shit happens" explanation of why some get hurt and others don't.

 

 

You get injured more when you're not flexible. That includes people who aren't wrestlers as well. It's just the way it is all other factors being equal. The Japanese train their trainees that way for flexibility and I think that's a big reason why they get away with doing what they do. Can we really say for example that John Cena could take the damage that Misawa did if he was on a similar schedule? Could Mick Foley as insane as he was takes Misawa's head bumps? No, I don't think so and the reason is that they're not as flexible.

Well, there is Akira Taue who is both far less "flexible" than Kobashi and Misawa and Kawada, and happened to have avoided the degree of injuries that those three have eaten. He happens to work the same schedule as the other two. More so, since he hasn't gotten as injured as often as they do.

 

Flexibility, or not quite taking the headdrops?

 

Well, that explains Taue vs. the others of the Four Corners. It doesn't explain him versus Shawn Michaels, Edge, Rick Rude, etc. Those guys weren't taking head drops either. Frankly, Taue in his career has probably taken more headdrops than all of them combined.

 

 

But in saying all this, one other thing we have to consider is that the body can adapt. I believe this is very signifigant when we're talking this stuff and it's something we've forgotten to talk about so far.

It isn't forgotten. It's a rather obvious thing like Water Usually Is Wet.

 

You and I couldn't go out today and take the bumps that even a second year worker can take without our bodies being a freaking mess. Our bodies and minds haven't learned how to bump, not matter how much of this shit we've watched.

 

Flair's been bumping for years. But if you asked him to take a headbumping drop in the exact style that Misawa does, given to him by Kawada or 1994 Dr. Death, you likely would have a maimed Flair on your hands. He just doesn't know how.

 

Misawa's body would have a tough time taking Foley's stupider bumps, which while they do maim Foley, don't exactly put him in a wheelchair.

 

We all know this. There's a differnce between saying that (i) Misawa knows how to take a head drop and his body has learned how to deal with the damage of the comes with it, and (ii) through body metamorphasis the head dropping doesn't hurt/damage/injure Misawa at all anymore.

 

 

John