Bix Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 ROH is 3 weeks away from its Japanese tour and four months into the majorly hyped (via Gabe "HAY DAVE HEARS ALL MY B00KING 2 PRINT" Sapolsky) Takeshi Morishima title reign, yet there's much, much less talk about the promotion lately. TNA just came off their 5th anniversary show, and there's less and less discussion about them than ever before. People have even tired of making fun of them. One can blame the loss of Aries, Cabana, Homicide, and Joe on ROH being less hyped than before, but with the big events going on it's still surprising and I can't really figure out why the Japanese shows aren't being talked up much. Even if Joe's departure threw a major monkey wrench in the shows (the planned main events were originally Joe-Sasaki and Joe-Tenryu), it's still something of a big deal. I can't think of a similar breaking point for TNA. Was there a specific moment where Russo lapped himself so badly that his booking became numbingly bad as opposed to amusingly bad? Did Angle do something specific to become even more of a non-entity in peoples' minds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 To me, I just can't buy into Morishima as champ. Try as they might to get him over, all I see is a guy who looks like a fat Japanese girl. He looks like someone the WWF would have jobbing on a MSG show in the 80s. ROH just hasn't done a good job replacing all the talent they lost IMO. I just don't get all that jazzed to see random dudes who are practically interchangeable. TNA I think is just a matter of people realizing it is what it is and at this point is never going to be anything more. They're the current generation's version of the late 80s AWA only with slightly better booking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Having just watched a bunch while converting it to DVD, deathbed AWA was a surprisingly a lot more watchable than TNA is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 TNA certainly has more "buzz" now than back in their weekly Nashville days. Maybe less people talk about it online, but it's seen by a lot more people on Spike than it ever was on PPV. ROH is tougher to call, because we really don't know exactly how well their business does month-to-month. But outside of boards that specifically discuss indy wrestling, I haven't heard a peep about their PPV in a while. One thing that might have an effect is that I think the wrestling community as a whole has finally gotten used to having a company like ROH around. It's been five years now, and there are plenty of Li'l Gabes who have blatantly copied their formula. Da Net is finally taking this once-unique company for granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 ROH - The main problem is simply that they don't have much of a roster. Morishima is an all right choice for champ and all, but the Japanese tour is going to feel flat without anyone in the Joe spot to do big matches against NOAH guys. I don't know how good of a job they've done building up new guys either, although part of that is circumstantial and the majority of the problem is just bad luck. TNA - TNA isn't going to change anything, because they're determined that they're doing the right thing regardless of what fans or numbers say. I think people have given up bitching about it because they know it's never going to get better. The only people who really support TNA are people who really, really want the monopoly days to end. I can't say I don't understand that, but I also don't think the monopoly days are ever going to end. TNA hasn't done anything to indicate that they have any desires of ever being competitive with WWE. Maybe that's more obvious than it used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 The thing with ROH is that a US indy taking the risk of running back to back shows in Japan would normally generate SOME buzz, even with the depleted roster. Maybe if they hadn't done the UK tours first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 The similarities with ROH and ECW are peculiar. ROH modeled itself after ECW. About five years in is when ECW started to lose momentum, just after starting PPV. They also had their first tour of Japan in late 1997-early 1998, which didn't generate a whole lot of buzz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Did they ever run "pure" ECW shows in Japan? I remember ECW sending over groups of wrestlers to work for IWA, FMW, and maybe W*ING, but not any ECW branded shows. But yes, you're pretty much right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 I think there was an ECW show with FMW and ZEN, but yes, it wasn't as big a step as touring independently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 I think there was an ECW show with FMW and ZEN, but yes, it wasn't as big a step as touring independently.Was this the Japanese tour that aired on ECW TV during that period? IIRC they showed a bunch of clips (including an explosion match) and one or two complete matches including Tanaka-Gladiator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Pretty sure that's the one. Either FMW or ZEN released a commercial version of the show, not sure which one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 I think part of the problem with ROH is the loss of Joe, Aries, 'Cide, and Daniels. But also it's sort of becoming 'exposed' to a certain degree that ROH is still below WWE and TNA in terms of exposure. Everyone made a big deal about ROH 'turning the corner' and getting on PPV. But they're PPV model isn't vastly different than what the territories and what Japan did for years in the 80's and 90's with their TV. Edited down versions of a full show, and then the full show released later (that being the case in Japan with major shows). Not that it isn't smart for them to do it that way, because it is, but at the same time, it's a far cry from the same sort of PPV scale that WWE and TNA have to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Having just watched a bunch while converting it to DVD, deathbed AWA was a surprisingly a lot more watchable than TNA is. Not surprising as Mike Enos and Larry Z are better than uninspired Samoa Joe and "love me cuz my wife died" face Jeff Jarrett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 One thing you have to hand to TNA, they have the best looking title belts right now. ROH's look like someone copied the Watts' UWF belt for their backyard fed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Not surprising as Mike Enos and Larry Z are better than uninspired Samoa Joe and "love me cuz my wife died" face Jeff Jarrett.Whoa, let's not go TOO overboard here. Any time he wasn't wrestling Bruno, Larry bored me to death. (And I say that as someone who really likes Bob Backlund matches.) One thing you have to hand to TNA, they have the best looking title belts right now.I got to play around when nobody important was looking and take a few pictures of me wearing the heavyweight and (more importantly) X-division belt, a few years back. Yes, it was as oddly fun as it sounds. ROH's look like someone copied the Watts' UWF belt for their backyard fed.Judging from all the various other old-skool markouts that ROH has committed in its time, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly where they copied 'em from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Larry Zbyszko was great. I will follow you around and offer evidence of this until it is agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Point me in a Youtube-ish direction (cuz I'm too broke to buy tapes) towards Zybysssko stuff that (allegedly) doesn't suck, and we'll talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 ROH has fallen off so much since the consistently great shows of 2004 and first half of 2005. Now they rely on Japanese talent, and to be honest I can't see their PPV deal generating much money. If you look at who they've lost in the last 2 years... Low Ki Homicide Samoa Joe CM Punk Colt Cabana Doug Williams AJ Styles Raven Alex Shelley Jay Lethal All intruiging characters with a distinct style and personality. They've been replaced in the main event with... BJ Whitmer Delirious Jimmy Rave Brent Albirhgt Kevin Steen Roderick Strong Davey Richards All dull, boring, generic characters, with the exception of Delirious who's just plain annoying. Basically, at the moment, they've got Sydal and Jacobs, and not much else. They'd do well to get Necro in. But, yeah, the results of their shows just look so boring now, it's a case of seen it all before, but with better, more entertaining characters in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Delerious is awesome. Also Zybysko was awesome, and I direct you to any Dangerous Alliance era WCW for evidence. On the first wrestling club DVD, Zybysko is CLEARLY the best person in a multi-man tag that includes guys like Windham, Eaton, Arn, Rude and Steamboat. Think about that for a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 I actually have to give ROH credit for making the Delirious push work out so well and get over with fans as good as it has. And uber props to Danielson for the 5/13 match more or less putting him on that level. Strong was almost at that level in late '05 early '06 but then they spent most of '06 with him as Aries' sidekick, and now he's really not much above what he was in 04, simply part of the group. I remember back when everyone was positive that he was the one to take the belt of Danielson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 The RoH problem is lack of talent plain and simple. Brent Albright is the only guy they have with star power that they have. They should be building around him. I was discussing on another board that they should raid the southern feds and bring in guys like Ric Converse, Preston Quinn and Damien Wayne. Those guys are good workers and can talk unlike most of the current RoH. The other problem is that they sell themselves on being the best wrestling ever and several companies are doing it just as well or better currently. TNA just scored the highest rating ever for an episode of Impact with a 1.2. The audience has stayed with them for almost 2 years now which is impressive considering WSX lost almost it's entire audience after the first episode. People don't like giving TNA credit but they do deserve some for finding a decent sized audience and keeping them on board with the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 The problem with Brent Albright is that he kinda sucks. They SHOULD bring in a bunch of Southern guys, but Gabe is pretty obtuse about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Even more northeastern-style southerners like the old NWA-Wildside crew often have a hard time breaking in up their. Note to Gabe: Jimmy Rave is NOT one of the most talented workers that came out of that old splintery schoolhouse in Cornelia GA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Didn't the last TNA Impact show get the highest ratings the show has ever gotten on spike? The product is stale and nothing will change that. Well unless they get rid of Russo, mantell, Angle, Sting and the dudleys. The end of the TNA partnership has really screwed ROH. I wouldn't dare say this on DVDVR but Morshima as champion is just horrible. I'd rather see Chris Hero or maybe even Nigel as champion than fat Japanese terry gordy. That and Gabe's hate for Lucha turns me away from ROH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Gabe isn't just anti-Lucha, it seems like he's anti-Mexican, too. Watching Death Before Dishonor 2 Night 1 I came across this during the opening 4 way Gabe: Delirious wears that mask every cause he has the face of a lizard. Nulty: Well Mil Mascaras wore his mask everywhere, even on plane rides. Gabe (Real real low and muffled): thats cause he has the face of a mexican.... Nulty: WOOOOOOOAH that was my partner Jimmy Bower right there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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