Mad Dog Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 I don't think Morishima is awful. He's just the wrong choice at the wrong time for RoH. They don't have anyone that can really go up against him. He's too big and he works the wrong stylefor their shows. Main eventing shows with title defenses against the likes of the Briscoe Brothers just won't cut it for what's supposedly the largest independent promotion out there. Plus it creates an annoyance when RoHbots that know nothing about puro but think they're an expert because they've seen a couple of NOAH guys. I got labeled a hater by a couple of bots for bringing up the fact that Marufuji bombed as GHC Champ and his defense agaisnt KENTA did pretty bad. Another issue I see with RoH is they've been using the NOAH and DG guys as a crutch since they've lost all their star power. That's a huge mistake IMO as the Japanese wrestlers work best as a novelty act that you throw on there once every few months to pop the attendance numbers or the DVD sales. If they're always there they lose their aura of being a special attraction and won't be able to save a lackluster card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 The other issue I see with RoH is Gabe is just burned out as a booker plain and simple. It's my opinion that a booker is good for roughly a year straight of shows before they're out of ideas. Gabe's going on year 5 right now and I'd say he's been burned out since a little before CM Punk left. I think he needs to let someone else book for 6 months to a year so he can get the creative juices flowing again. A lot of stuff right now seems very paint by numbers to me. I also know of several fans that tuned out for good during the CZW feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 The other issue I see with RoH is Gabe is just burned out as a booker plain and simple. It's my opinion that a booker is good for roughly a year straight of shows before they're out of ideas. Gabe's going on year 5 right now and I'd say he's been burned out since a little before CM Punk left. I think he needs to let someone else book for 6 months to a year so he can get the creative juices flowing again. A lot of stuff right now seems very paint by numbers to me. I also know of several fans that tuned out for good during the CZW feud. Especially as a guy who seems to get stressed out easily, he desperately needs somebody to sit in while he recharges. 5 and a half years as the head booker of a promotion with an increasing schedule is a disaster waiting to happen. Dave Prazak is right there and has proven himself to be a good, logical booker in IWAMS & Shimmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Another issue I see with RoH is they've been using the NOAH and DG guys as a crutch since they've lost all their star power. That's a huge mistake IMO as the Japanese wrestlers work best as a novelty act that you throw on there once every few months to pop the attendance numbers or the DVD sales. If they're always there they lose their aura of being a special attraction and won't be able to save a lackluster card. I think this is a good point and is the reason why their Japanese shows are getting no buzz at the moment. Their show in Osaka has a line up that sounds like it could have happened in the States during WrestleMania weekend, as no outsiders are being used. When these shows were first announced people were getting ahead of themselves and salivating at the possibilities of seeing Kensuke Sasaki or Toshiaki Kawada in a ROH ring for the first time, so it isn't surprising these shows are getting no buzz when the line up seems like just another house show except it's in a different country. I think there is a good chance these shows could really bomb at the box office, particularly the one in Tokyo, as there are so many bigger shows in those markets that they could easily get lost in the shuffle. With regards to TNA I think their lack of buzz is due to them clearly treading water until Jeff Jarrett recovers from the loss of his wife and their TV situation is cleared up. I can imagine they're holding off shooting any major angles or shaking up the booking too much at the moment, because in a few months time they may be on a new network and or have the extra hour of TV time they've been craving for, for so long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Another issue I see with RoH is they've been using the NOAH and DG guys as a crutch since they've lost all their star power. That's a huge mistake IMO as the Japanese wrestlers work best as a novelty act that you throw on there once every few months to pop the attendance numbers or the DVD sales. If they're always there they lose their aura of being a special attraction and won't be able to save a lackluster card. I think this is a good point and is the reason why their Japanese shows are getting no buzz at the moment. Their show in Osaka has a line up that sounds like it could have happened in the States during WrestleMania weekend, as no outsiders are being used. When these shows were first announced people were getting ahead of themselves and salivating at the possibilities of seeing Kensuke Sasaki or Toshiaki Kawada in a ROH ring for the first time, so it isn't surprising these shows are getting no buzz when the line up seems like just another house show except it's in a different country. I think there is a good chance these shows could really bomb at the box office, particularly the one in Tokyo, as there are so many bigger shows in those markets that they could easily get lost in the shuffle. They really should've considered going with some of the original ideas, just without Joe. The only person of any note on the shows who hasn't worked an ROH show before is Ricky Marvin, who is awesome but not exactly a DVD seller. Wasn't the whole point of losing their ass on this that they'd be able to use draws like Sasaki & Tenryu who wouldn't come to the US? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Kind of off subject, but damn, Minoru Suzuki in ROH would be fantastic and Gabe should make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 You know, that supposed NWA title reign for Joe that prompted this whole mess has yet to happen, and doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 That said, ROH starting to run PPV events would have almost certainly messed it up anyway. The funny thing is he didn't get the title as punishment for a comment he made on a ROH show mocking TNA booking that happened before his farewell tour even started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Maybe it's because I write for a more mainstream site, but it doesn't seem to me that ROH's buzz is at a low point AT ALL. On Inside Pulse, for example, it used to be that I would include a nod to ROH whenever it worked as part of a column, or sometimes I'd devote a whole column to, say, Bryan Danielson; and sometimes SK or someone would throw out a review of a big show. Last year, a whole bunch of the writers started to get into ROH. In our '06 awards, the promotion was really featured for the first time, including Danielson taking WOTY. Now, Pulse Wrestling covers almost every show, many of them live, and such old-school "name" writers as Eric S. have become an ROH fan. I've seen similar trends on a lot of the mainstream wrestling sites that I've visited this year. ROH is being taken seriously, rather than written off as "just another indie." I think maybe it's at the point where they are going from "favourite college band" status to "radio and MTV hot star" status, and so we (the more elitist wrestling fan base) are beginning to turn our backs on them... But people who were "only free TV wrestling" fans in '05 are getting hip to ROH in '07. The TNA defections hurt, but roster is still more than fine, with the Briscoes on fire and Danielson back full time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FlairPinnedMe Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Kind of off subject, but damn, Minoru Suzuki in ROH would be fantastic and Gabe should make it happen.him vs Danielson would make me shill out for an ROH dvd for the first time in over a year. The buzz for ROH isn't at an all time low, but it hasn't been this low since 2003 I would say. 2004, 2005 and to a lesser extent the start of 2006 had so much good to great stuff. So either the direction that Gabe took a lot of people got bored of or a lot of people just got burnt out on the product. For me it was a combination of these two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 As I said in the other thread. They should've opened the wallet a bit for this. Why not throw Morishima defending against say Ultimo Dragon. Or why not bring back Jushin Liger who is the DG Champ currently. Or why not do a double shot of Ultimo Dragon vs. Super Delfin with the winner taking on Morishima. Anyone of those ideas would've done more for them than what they have planned currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Also I think the obscene amount of shows they run now have started hurting him. It's making people pick and choose shows and as a result feel less into the product because they can only follow bits and pieces of storylines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KCook Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 The ROH roster is just embarrassing at this point, not really anyone's fault, but it's a problem. I think UFC crossing a certain threshold is the big culprit here, though. Anyone who was inclined to support "anything but WWE" turned to UFC at a certain point once it was clear it wasn't a flash in the pan. It just sucked up whatever little oxygen that TNA and ROH were breathing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spunk Posted July 4, 2007 Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 Maybe it's because I write for a more mainstream site, but it doesn't seem to me that ROH's buzz is at a low point AT ALL. On Inside Pulse, for example, it used to be that I would include a nod to ROH whenever it worked as part of a column, or sometimes I'd devote a whole column to, say, Bryan Danielson; and sometimes SK or someone would throw out a review of a big show. Last year, a whole bunch of the writers started to get into ROH. In our '06 awards, the promotion was really featured for the first time, including Danielson taking WOTY. Now, Pulse Wrestling covers almost every show, many of them live, and such old-school "name" writers as Eric S. have become an ROH fan. I've seen similar trends on a lot of the mainstream wrestling sites that I've visited this year. ROH is being taken seriously, rather than written off as "just another indie." I think maybe it's at the point where they are going from "favourite college band" status to "radio and MTV hot star" status, and so we (the more elitist wrestling fan base) are beginning to turn our backs on them... But people who were "only free TV wrestling" fans in '05 are getting hip to ROH in '07. The TNA defections hurt, but roster is still more than fine, with the Briscoes on fire and Danielson back full time. Now. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm going to preface this with that. You do that, and that is cool and all, so remember -- not trying to be a dick. But who the fuck reads fucking wrestling column sites anymore, esp Inside Pulse? Whenever I think of this stuff I think of really young teens reading this shit thinking that they are privy to something really special by reading columns. I really don't know if talking about people who spend tons of time writing opinions 4 u about grapz is indicative at all of hype for something. These sites have always written about ROH and TNA in mass amounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 I think the Tokyo show is going to bomb horribly. It's coming just a couple of days after Misawa defending the title against Taue in NOAH's biggest show of the year. It's also only going to be like a week and a half after Nagata making an IWGP defense against Makabe. I don't see how they expect to draw anyone in with the card they threw out there. Most of their roster will be virtual unknowns to most Japanese wrestling fans. Are they just hoping that American wrestling is a big enough draw on it's own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Strike that. It's the night after Misawa defending the GHC against Taue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spunk Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 I'm just guessing, but my assumption is that NOAH is going to somehow help promote the shows. I highly doubt Gabe had the connections to just set up ROH dates in Japan just like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Dave may be pre-facing by not trying to be a dick, but I won't, because ROH have been dicks to me many times. And most folks here who know me (Dave, Loss, Gordi, etc. can vouch that I'm not a dick) I hope the Japan shows *do* fall flat on their face, so maybe Gabe and Cary will realize that they and ROH aren't god's gift to wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 I'm just guessing, but my assumption is that NOAH is going to somehow help promote the shows. I highly doubt Gabe had the connections to just set up ROH dates in Japan just like that. Kurt Angle may have given him the number. (That never gets old.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Aren't ROH and NOAH part of that group that every fed in Japan other than AJ and NJ belong to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spunk Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 I'm pretty sure that ended up being a bust. There was like one show full of indy sleaze guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 They just had a show about a month ago. I know Rocky Romero and Rocky Marvin were on the show. I could care less about ROH though. I just watch the matches that are posted online. I know somehow money is going to Feinstein somehow. Probably can't prove it but that's my gut feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 I totally forgot about the GPWA. Have they done anything since the 3rd Differ Cup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 I was looking through some of the Differ Arena shows to get an idea of attendance figures and there was a show earlier this month with most of the native talents they're using. It drew 380 fans. And that's probably the bullshit figure the promotion throws out there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 The cards they've got for those two shows are alright, but nothing special. Just like with the PPVs. That's the problem: ROH clearly has no idea how to book a Bigtime Supercard type show. It seems like they insist on squandering every new opportunity with "just another ROH show". And while just another ROH show is hella better than just another Impact or just another ECW On Sci-Fi, I don't think it's so staggeringly good that large numbers of new fans will be instantly converted after their first glimpse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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