The Benoit family tragedy examined from all angles

[Jingus]

Okay, I finally get it. Sorry, I thought you were talking about wrestling style, not the gas. Yeah, I kinda wish Benoit had learned from Dynamite Kid's example, rather than just blindly following it.

[Guest KCook]

It's a lot more than smart fans demanding that these guys get pushes--it's also the way hardcore fans buy into the whole bullshit "wrestling as art" gimmick these guys push.

 

Benoit, Guerrero, Pillman--these guys were insane, flat out lunatics, and if they hadn't gone into wrestling they would have gone into intelligence or porn or the mob or something similar. But they did go into wrestling, and they wanted to get ahead for money and ego like everyone else, and they didn't have the kind of bodies Nash and Hogan had. So they in part created and in part went along with this whole ridiculous idea that there is something noble about killing yourself in the ring, as opposed to doing just enough to satisfy the crowd and leave them wanting more (which is hard enough on its own). Because they were insane, they believed their own bullshit and lost track of reality--but the original problem is in the con, and the problem with smart fans is in buying into the larger, overarching con, not demanding pushes for specific wrestlers.

 

There's nothing noble about being dead, or about being as fucked up as Mitsuharu Misawa or Dynamite Kid. This is just a con these guys were using to get ahead, the same way Hogan and Nash used the size con to get ahead or Foley used a variant of the "wrestling is art and it's real" bullshit.

[kjh]

Oh, I'm adding a section to the beginning explaining the nature of wrestling and also wrestling fans, and that quote from the Observer site is definitely getting included.

I read that section and while I agree with your criticism of wrestling fans, I think it should have been pointed out that their worst behaviour is often bred by the reckless actions of the wrestlers and wrestling promoters themselves. Is it any surprise that fans have forgetten that wrestlers are human when Kurt Angle was allowed to work WrestleMania 19 with a broken neck, risking paralysis, and such behaviour is not only condoned by WWE but praised and encouraged? In a similar vein, WWE fans have been taught by over two decades of booking that "bigger is better". Why should WWE fans believe Rey Misterio is believable facing bigger wrestlers in main events, when during his World title run they book him to be squashed in three consecutive weeks by Mark Henry, The Great Khali and Kane? I agree that the second Hell In A Cell match raised the bar of fan expectation way too high, but Vince McMahon, in the middle of the biggest wrestling war ever, was all too willing to allow Foley to risk his life and limb by taking those two death-defying stunts.

[Loss]

The wrestling fans who were complaining about believability purposely choose not to believe in anything they watch in wrestling anyway, and are often fans who talk about wrestling frequently acknowledging that it's fake. The criticism was coming from an odd place. Wrestlers like Akira Hokuto have also attempted to wrestle with broken bones in the past, so it's not even exclusive to WWE.

 

I'm not so sure all the blame can lie on the promoters in that case. DDTs, piledrivers and shooting star presses being banned have led to far more complaints from fans than praise. Those individuals feel their personal entertainment is more important than anyone's safety.

 

There's also fans overreacting with righteous indignation when Vickie Guerrero is given less than two minutes of TV time per week, so she is employed and can support her family. Fans criticize WWE for putting someone who doesn't entertain them on television (despite Vickie being harmless and for the most part barely featured), not taking into account the ridiculous sacrifices she has had to make in her real life so spoiled fans can get their money's worth.

[Guest Spunk]

This is great stuff, Loss. This isn't a direct reaction, but this is what this made me think.

 

Intelligence interests me a lot for the same reasons wrestling does -- hidden histories fascinate me -- and while in many ways it couldn't be more dissimilar, the two fields demand something very similar, a total dissolution of your own identity and your ability to trust people.

 

When you read about the early years of the CIA and the men who built it, you read a lot of stories very similar to those of wrestlers who have died. Suicides, insanity, broken families, murders, disappearances; it's really horrible stuff. Anyone who got too involved with covert action or counterintelligence, anyone who really understood the inner secrets of American foreign policy, ended up horribly damaged in some way. There are a lot of theories about why this is but I think it's simple enough; when you demand someone give up their ability to maintain a true personality to do their work they're going to get fucked out of all recognition.

 

I'm not really too sure where I'm going with this, but a couple of points come to mind. Benoit is accountable, of course, but I think in a very fundamental way wrestling itself -- the nature of it, the secrecy and working -- is what caused this and the rest of the explanations are red herrings. By all accounts it's all he cared about. It cost him his health, his family, his friends, and it also gave him those things. I think he reached a point where he lost his passion, looked at what wrestling had cost him, and realized it had all been for nothing. I don't think that's the true cause of the murders, but I do think that's the line of thinking that ultimately led to this.

 

The other point is this. If you saw The Good Shepherd, that's a heavily fictionalized account of the life of America's greatest spy, James Jesus Angleton. The usual line on him is that he went insane with paranoia because of the nature of intelligence work, seeing KGB everywhere, and crippled the CIA for years with his counterintelligence purges, which ruined the careers of a lot of honest men. The real truth is a lot murkier. His biggest fear was that the KGB would be able to insert moles in both the FBI and CIA at the same time and construct a feedback loop. Something like that actually happened with the Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames cases, after Angleton was discredited and forced out. He was insane, and he did see enemies where there weren't any, but he understood the nature of intelligence in a way others didn't, and on the very fundamental points, he was ultimately right.

 

It's an odd comparison, but it seems similar to the position of guys like Hogan or Nash. They always preached that the road guys like Benoit followed was a dead end, that if you understood the nature of the work you'd understand why what they did wasn't just unnecessary, but was counterproductive. They thought Guerrero and Benoit and those guys were marks working themselves to death for nothing but the praise of a handful of hardcore fans whose opinions didn't mean shit. I think ten years later it's pretty hard to argue with them, and I think hardcore fandom is complicit in all these deaths, though hardcore fans as individuals aren't, if that distinction makes sense.

Well by all means, these guys did drive themselves insane trying to be the best ever, and it cost them their lives. What really got me about Dave's updates was the part about Benoit working so hard to reach the Shawn/HHH level of star, and how he was going insane thinking he wasn't there and how he would never be there.

 

It kind of blurs the line between wrestling being 'real' and being 'fake.' Some of these guys just get so obsessed with da biz, and need to feel validated and respected. It was disturbing before everybody knew he did it that everybody who eulogized him on TV talked about respect. I was finding it kind of hard to sympathize with Benoit being dead when you had Austin's bizarre 'I liked working with him, but didn't do it a lot' and Regal's 'Benoit had good wrestling matches' kind of stuff. John Cena came off like a really naive, nice dude who saw Benoit as a great guy and was probably afraid of him in some way.. You get every impression that Chris Benoit treated wrestling like what went on was 'real' in a sense, and that his placement on the card and how people thought, looked at him, and treated him was vastly important to him.

[Jingus]

I agree that the second Hell In A Cell match raised the bar of fan expectation way too high, but Vince McMahon, in the middle of the biggest wrestling war ever, was all too willing to allow Foley to risk his life and limb by taking those two death-defying stunts.

If Vince knew about it. Foley claims nobody but himself, Taker, and Funk knew the plan, for fear of getting told not to do it.

 

There's also fans overreacting with righteous indignation when Vickie Guerrero is given less than two minutes of TV time per week, so she is employed and can support her family. Fans criticize WWE for putting someone who doesn't entertain them on television (despite Vickie being harmless and for the most part barely featured), not taking into account the ridiculous sacrifices she has had to make in her real life so spoiled fans can get their money's worth.

I've never really bought that as a truly charitable thing. Why have her on TV at all? How is that not Eddiesploitation? Vince is a "billionaire", he could afford to pay her the exact same money to sit at home and raise her kids. It's not like she's drawing any money or adding quality to the show with her ultra-wooden acting anyway.

[kjh]

I'm not so sure all the blame can lie on the promoters in that case. DDTs, piledrivers and shooting star presses being banned have led to far more complaints from fans than praise. Those individuals feel their personal entertainment is more important than anyone's safety.

The way I see it is that a promoter, first and foremost, has a responsibility for the wellbeing of their employees. Some fans may care about their own entertainment more than the wrestlers' safety, but a promoter doesn't have to and shouldn't satisfy those bloodthirsty fans' demands, even though it may put a few more bucks in their pocket and his wrestlers are crazy enough to want to do it.

 

If Vince knew about it. Foley claims nobody but himself, Taker, and Funk knew the plan, for fear of getting told not to do it.

I'm not sure I buy that story, but even if it is true, it didn't stop McMahon from allowing Foley to do similar risky stunts in subsequent matches.

[Guest teke184]

Piledrivers and the SSP I can see banning, especially since there have been some high-profile accidents involving both.

 

(Austin's broken neck, Jericho's broken arm from Smokey Mountain, Brock's blown SSP from Mania 19, etc.)

 

 

But why the DDT? Does that one have a high chance of concussion as well?

 

It's not a move that appears especially physically demanding on the performers, unlike the other two.

[pantherwagner]

Benoit, Guerrero, Pillman--these guys were insane, flat out lunatics, and if they hadn't gone into wrestling they would have gone into intelligence or porn or the mob or something similar.

This is Kevin Cook back in his best shape ever. Bravo, sir. All points and comparisons were brilliant and spot on.

[pantherwagner]

But why the DDT? Does that one have a high chance of concussion as well?

Think Edge's Impaler instead of Jake Roberts' DDT.

 

Pro wrestling would be better if 80% of the SQUARE+CIRCLE moves in Fire Pro Wrestling were banned.

[Bix]

Jake's DDTs were pretty nasty at points, though, like the Steamboat one on the floor.

[Guest Spunk]

But why the DDT? Does that one have a high chance of concussion as well?

Think Edge's Impaler instead of Jake Roberts' DDT.

 

Pro wrestling would be better if 80% of the SQUARE+CIRCLE moves in Fire Pro Wrestling were banned.

 

Even the back grapple ones? I can't live without the Chickenwing Suplex.

 

I hate when people whine about guys not being allowed to do moves. If you are good enough at what you do, you don't need a Shooting Star Press to get over. If Paul London was as good as people make him out to be, he wouldn't have to whine about being denied the SSP and 450. It isn't like his move arsenal outside of those moves is nothing, that mushroom stomp thing he did was awesome and I'm sure he could find another finisher to get over. I know he is a smallish dude, but just because he is small doesn't mean he can't get moves that aren't flips over.

[World's Worst Man]

I don't like the idea of banning moves. It would make more sense to me if they just told the wrestlers to be smart about their usage of the dangerous/flashy moves. That is to say, to only use them for special occasions such as big, high-profile matches or what have you. People like what they like, there's no "right" or "wrong" way to enjoy pro-wrestling, and some people do enjoy "big moves" at face value. But they also need to be reasonable with their expectations, because wrestlers are only human. Seeing high-impact, athletic moves all the time eventually kills the importance of those high-impact moves, and more importantly it greatly increases the wear and tear on the wrestlers. Banning dangerous moves and going back to purely fundamental wrestling would likely turn many fans off, but serious moderation is something that could keep everyone satisfied.

[Bix]

http://www.wrestlingobserver.com/wo/news/h...t.asp?aID=20050

 

--Bodybuilding.com which is a main site for bodybuilders talking about bodybuilding subjects including steroids. One thing I've been told is that not only this site, but the Muscle & Fitness web site and ProSource bodybuilding web sites is a lot of posts from people mad at Benoit--not because of the tragedy, but they are angry because his actions may make it more difficult for them to get steroids and GH. (thanks to Mike Rice)

[S.L.L.]

I don't like the idea of banning moves. It would make more sense to me if they just told the wrestlers to be smart about their usage of the dangerous/flashy moves. That is to say, to only use them for special occasions such as big, high-profile matches or what have you. People like what they like, there's no "right" or "wrong" way to enjoy pro-wrestling, and some people do enjoy "big moves" at face value. But they also need to be reasonable with their expectations, because wrestlers are only human. Seeing high-impact, athletic moves all the time eventually kills the importance of those high-impact moves, and more importantly it greatly increases the wear and tear on the wrestlers. Banning dangerous moves and going back to purely fundamental wrestling would likely turn many fans off, but serious moderation is something that could keep everyone satisfied.

But that is what's happening. Paul London still does shooting star presses, he just does them less, etc. As for turning off fans....not sure there's ever been a successful box office draw who's used the shooting star press. I guess Brock is kinda borderline. Don't know how much of a draw you want to consider Liger. But I don't buy into the notion that cutting down on big moves will hurt business. Especially if it means less potential money draws dying.

[Bix]

From USA Today in March '04:

 

Jerry McDevitt, the outside legal counsel for McMahon's wrestling organization, contends testing "just doesn't work" because wrestlers can fake urine tests or use designer steroids that are undetectable. "Anybody who wants to beat it can beat it. The only ones who are caught are stupid," he says.

[Jingus]

Translation: "We're damn sure that Benoit's toxicology will come back with an entire pharmacy inside him, so let's start covering our asses now."

 

They can fake urine tests? Draw blood, then. And "designer steroids" that are truly undetectable are pretty damn rare and very damn expensive.

[sek69]

Translation: "We're damn sure that Benoit's toxicology will come back with an entire pharmacy inside him, so let's start covering our asses now."

 

They can fake urine tests? Draw blood, then. And "designer steroids" that are truly undetectable are pretty damn rare and very damn expensive.

 

There currently isn't a test for growth hormone. That's a problem legit sports are running into now.

[ohtani's jacket]

..so yes..in a sense hardcore fandom is responsible

In that case, what position is the fan supposed to take?

 

I don't see too many people refraining from downloading, distributing or pimping matches and it's only a matter of time before people start criticising workers in the same way as before. Will this seriously change the way people judge wrestling matches, considering the things that made Benoit a good wrestler played a part in all of this?

 

I mean, can a person justify criticising a wrestler or the way they work a match if working hard leads to your body breaking down and a safe style may still involve a risky lifestyle?

 

And if the business is rotten to the core or just fucked to begin with, what are we doing watching it?

[kjh]

Seeing high-impact, athletic moves all the time eventually kills the importance of those high-impact moves, and more importantly it greatly increases the wear and tear on the wrestlers.

This point really ties back to Kevin's comments about how Benoit's wrestling style was ultimately a dead end and counterproductive. Benoit, aided and abetted by the equally crazy Kurt Angle, killed the importance of dangerous suplexes by overusing them in their matches as a short cut to popping the crowd. Instead of Benoit needing one German suplex to get a reaction, it became three and then three turned to six, seven, eight, nine or ten. I suppose their criticism of hardcore fandom is also valid, as at the time almost no-one derided the style for upping the ante too much and instead marvelled at the spectacle of it all. I'm starting to think that the so called Smackdown Six will become WWE's version of the Von Erichs.

[Bix]

Translation: "We're damn sure that Benoit's toxicology will come back with an entire pharmacy inside him, so let's start covering our asses now."

 

They can fake urine tests? Draw blood, then. And "designer steroids" that are truly undetectable are pretty damn rare and very damn expensive.

March '04

[Jingus]

Oh. Whoops. Still sounds like an ass cover, though, "well we can't detect ALL drugs, so why even try?".

[Guest teke184]

Oh. Whoops. Still sounds like an ass cover, though, "well we can't detect ALL drugs, so why even try?".

And when did Eddie Guerrero drop dead?

 

November 2005.

 

They pushed testing after that because they had a collective "Oh, shit..." moment and wanted to prevent another.

 

 

 

IMHO, they averted at least one major "Oh, shit..." moment by firing Kurt Angle.

 

As high-profile as the Benoit thing is due to the severity of the crime, *any* Angle issues would have been in the same ballpark due to his high-profile status as a legit Olympic gold medalist and the biggest "real" athlete in the business.

[Guest KCook]

Benoit has turned into a cartoon villain. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years...071benoit1.html

 

He was already known by the DEA because of the amount of steroids he was taking. Think about that for a second. That's like being known by the DEA for the amount of pot you smoke. The feds don't care about users.

 

You have to love the headline, too:

 

DEA Knew Of Benoit's Excessive Steroid Buys

Killer wrestler bought 10-month anabolic supply every few weeks

[Loss]

I have updated this now with current information and corrected things that have been debunked in the media, like Daniel's Fragile X Syndrome.

 

I think I waited too long to re-up my WON and I'm not going to get the first issue from this week. The main part of this that I see that affecting is the section on Benoit's personal character. If anyone has any additional information that they think I should add to that part, please let me know.

 

After that, barring any future twists in this story, I think Phil can feel free to post this at Segunda Caida.