Comments that don't warrant a thread

[Indikator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJDDHnSNCc8...feature=related > Benny Hill

[jdw]

Ceteris paribus, Starrcade '87 would still be a major money loser due to going head to head with the WWF's Survivor Series and only 5 cable companies carrying the show. Maggie's accident didn't change the long term result, the fallout only meant that Crockett couldn't hold on for as long. JCP would've still been sold to Turner before the end of the decade.

Completely agree that Starcade '87 would have been a failure. I really think that JCP should have joined hands with Turner in some form before going onto PPV. They needed some muscle within the industry to get on PPV. Ted wasn't exactly the most beloved person within the cable world, but he did have cha-ching with TBS & CNN & HDN at his back.

 

Not sure how I would approach it. Probably rather than wasting time with the UWF purchase (and instead focus on picking off Watts' talent like Ted), they should have been talking to Ted in January 1987 about buying a piece of JCP and working towards Starcade '87 being cleared on PPV. JCP would have looked its most attractive at that point as they were doing reasonably well in their national expansion (though admittedly disoranized), coming off the success of Starcade, and the big hype of Wrestlemania III was building and Ted might of gotten a hardon to get himself some of that while wrestling was "hot".

 

John

[jdw]

I don't think the plan would have ever been to have Magnum be the JCP Hogan, I think the plan seemed to be more like phasing the eternal Dusty-Flair feud into a Magnum-Flair one, and allowing Dusty to take a more behind the scenes/Baba at the trios and comedy stage of his career kind of role.

Here's the problem:

 

No one knows what the "plan" was. We've got loads of speculation, and whatever bullshit Dusty and others have chosen to spin out since then as they fondly look back on those days and which we shouldn't take with much cerdibility.

 

Dusty *never* was going to become Baba working comedy matches, or their JCP equiv. This is a guy who in his dying days with the company inserted himself into a feud with the Road Warriors teaming with one of the two hottest "rising stars" of the promotion, then cut the classic "I Am The NWA" promo on his way out the door. You think Dusty had a plan to stop pushing himself prior to 1990?

 

 

That's why I think the accident was so important. Not so much for what may have been with Magnum directly, but for what other plans were changed as a result of it. Think about it, Nikita probably stays heel longer for one.

What more could one do with Nikita at that point? He feuded with the Roadies. He feuded with the R'n'R. He feuded with Maggie. Where do you go with him?

 

Frankly the face turn gave him something of a breath of fresh air that to a degree lasted through the Bash (and dropping the title to Lex). Honestly... what do they do with him as a heel from October 1986 to July 1987 without the face turn?

 

Feud with Dusty? They did the Russians vs Dusty & Manny years before.

 

I don't think Nikita benefits at all by Maggie *not* getting hurt. Nikita's career just hits the wall earlier.

 

 

The Horsemen/Lex thing probably still happens because that was about replacing Ole. So now you have super babyface Lex vs super heel Nikita and it may not have even mattered if the title was involved or not.

You've got that mixed up. Horseman Lex = Super Heel, not a Super Babyface.

 

You only run Lex-Nikita if Lex is a face, or Nikita is a face.

 

Dusty would *flat out* not want Lex to come in as a face if Maggie was still around. Too much risk of Lex stealing Maggie's thunder if the plan is your dream of Franchise Maggie.

 

The reason Lex got tossed with the Horsemen was to learn the ropes more, surround him with workers who could carry things, and with guys who could carry interviews. And of course to give his eventual face turn more impact. In a sense it was a combo "learning period" and "side drain period" to avoid instantly doing what some would think as the obvious: Lex-Flair with Lex as the JCP Hogan.

 

I'm not an advocate of Lex as the JCP Hogan, and was perfectly happy when they tossed him with the Horsemen. It moved the push futher down the road. And it's almost certainly what Dusty would have done if Maggie hadn't had the accident.

 

Then again, it's *possible* that JCP would never have thrown the cash at Lex if they had Maggie. Not sure how that would have worked out.

 

 

You could get a pretty decent run out of that before Nikita's wife gets sick and kills his interest in wrestling. Starrcade would have done better since it wouldn't have featured Flair vs a lame duck champion, and maybe that allows Crockett to be able to pay some guys instead of going broke and starting the mass exodus to the WWF.

So this is talking about Starcade 1987?

 

I'm not sure how they would have booked 1987 if they had Maggie, Lex and Barry. I'm not even sure they would have had all three if Maggie hadn't gone down. One suspects they would have had Barry since FL was dying and Dusty & Barry go back a long ways. But Lex... just don't know. Since it was ever so obvious that Long Term he was going to be a Top Babyface, and Dusty had a habit of protecting those slots for Himself and His Pals, I'm less confident that he would want Lex in there presenting a risk to Maggie.

 

Without Maggie, the company *had* to make a big play to get Lex and eyeball him as the long term Franchise (which he very much was when they signed him). They had to make a play to get Barry, which they may or may not have done without Maggie going down. He clearly had a long term role in Dusty's mind, *possibly* as the Next Flair with an eventual heel turn well down the road. The company ended up being forced to push Sting, who was almost an accident in how he blew up. If there was a Maggie, how likely would it have been that Sting/Lex would be the anchors of the promotion in the 1988-91 period in addition to Flair?

 

That's a lot of maybes to be sure, but it illustrates how Magnum's accident was the butterfly effect in action.

I just don't see it. Watched it at the time, and thought it was tragic when it happened. But I was more enthused about Barry and Lex coming in than about Maggie going down.

 

John

[Bix]

I've always found it odd that it took until JCP's 3rd PPV to get Turner Home Entertainment to distribute the PPV to help get clearances and keep away any kind of WWF opposition. It should've been clear from the moment Vince sabotaged Starrcade.

[jdw]

In all fairness, Dusty should've taken a break from booking in 1987 because every booker gets burnt out after a long booking stint and with guys there like Dundee, Gilbert, Dillon, & Kevin Sullivan then Gary Hart coming in during 1988 they could've gotten somewhat fresher and Dusty could've focused only on wrestling. The thing was that Jim Crockett was married to Dusty professionally and I think even if Dusty wanted to take a break, Crockett would've made him stay.

I don't think Dusty had any desire to take a break. Super Booking Genius, and he loved calling the shots. My preference would have been for him to take a break from the *wrestling* and focus on the book, and building a team to run a national promotion. I don't know... perhaps at the time you cut in Turner, you also give Dusty a cut similar to what the Brothers did with Dana White. 5-10%... Dusty has a vested interesting in the group... get him out of the ring... turn him into the old Bill Watts role... and limit his "comebacks" to a single GAB Tour every two years in just tag matches underneath the double main events. "Retire" at Starcade 1986, GAB Comebacks for 1988, 1990, etc. If your goal is to get Starcade on PPV in 1987, then shoot for lauching a second PPV with the GAB in 1988 with Dusty's "special return" as one of the other selling points. Long term planning.

 

Dusty was really quite suffocating as a wrestler by the middle of 1987... and it went on for more than a year and a half afte that. 1986 would have been a great send off for him: win the World Title at the Bash, and then line up a proper Final Match at Starcade.

 

"It's a new era for new stars..." type of promo. Let Crockett give him the equiv of Commissioner back then. Can't be President of the NWA... but give him some other NWA related handle like Chairman of the Competition Committee or some such bullshit. Don't get him physically involved in matches, and have a nice running joke of heels wanting to smack him around but if they do they'll get suspended and "blacklisted" from the NWA (yes... use that term). Heels keep backing off from that one because (as JJ and Corny can explain) that would cost them their livelihood and they wouldn't be able to feed their kids, yadder, yadder. Then when someone actually does layout Dusty with a chair in 1988, it's a "Holy Shit" moment built up for a year and a half.

 

 

Barry Windham getting the title from Flair in 1987 could've worked as well but if I was in charge of JCP when the UWF was bought, DiBiase gets a long-term deal, then we do the UWF invasion setting up Flair/DiBiase at Starrcade title vs. title to determine the unified champion, DiBiase wins the title as the heel then we have a babyface Flair who would leave the Horsemen, Luger, Sting, Windham, Nikita challenging DiBiase for the title

My worry about Barry getting the title in 1987 is that it's a Career Peak and then a Career Dead End. What does Barry's career look like if he's instantly down at a non-World Title level. I think in those days there always was the risk of being Tommy Rich.

 

I think even Savage never was in the WWF (in his first run) quite at the same level after his first World Title run. They flat out busted their ass to make the feud with Warrior work, and it did. But the Macho King gimmick was a far cry from his 1986-89 peak. His stuff with Flair had a shot, but they couldn't bring it off.

 

It was a different era, and the World Title (in both promotions) was just an entirely different level. Very few people like Dusty could take a Cup of Coffee with it and *not* have it impact their careers where they looked lesser once they no longer held the belt. I'm not even sure that Kerry for the rest of 1984 and into 1985 was quite the same after he had fullfilled the Quest of the Von Erics going back more than a decade. Perhaps on a local level they could pawn off how Kerry got screwed in Japan, but if you're a national promotion... back then it was kind of hard to bury that this guy who won the title is now just one of the guys, especially when you're a face.

 

That's not a problem as much with an older vet. But Barry at the time looked like he had a great future.

 

I'm totally down with you on Ted. But I wouldn't have wasted my time buying the UWF and doing a UWF vs NWA feud. I simply would have picked off talent.

 

Dusty had issues with some of them, which is too bad. Of course the Birds were out-of-control to some degree, but lordy they would have been a nice compliment to JCP (especially if Gordy took the time to get the knee done). Of course Ted being brought in would have been great, and like I said above, I would have put him with the Horsemen with Flair going face. Don't know if I would have gone face with Flair forever, but by 1987-88, the time was really ripe for him to go face. You just needed a strong World Champ level heel opposite him. Can't think of anyone better for that role than Ted.

 

John

[jdw]

I've always found it odd that it took until JCP's 3rd PPV to get Turner Home Entertainment to distribute the PPV to help get clearances and keep away any kind of WWF opposition. It should've been clear from the moment Vince sabotaged Starrcade.

I think:

 

* the 2nd (Bunkhouse) was already in the books by the time Starcade was failing

 

* the 3rd (GAB) came at a time when they were deeper into negotiations with Turner

 

I always thought GAB was the first indication of where they were headed, but things didn't get done in time to save Arn & Tully from jumping. Not surprisingly given what a screw up JCP was in those last two years.

 

Turner probably got a big cut of the $$$ for GAB. It also was likely the typical slow payout form the cable companies and middle men that helped kill off JCP getting enough $$$ to retain Arn & Tully.

 

John

[rovert]

Im calling rating glitch on Raw's rating

[Bix]

Yeah, down .5 with minimal gain for TNA is a lot, especially this week, though last week's show was definitely promoted better. I'm curious to see the segment by segment.

[rovert]

Remember when Raw did an inital 2.5 in July 2007?

[Sean Liska]

I can believe the RAW number. If Bret Hart's return vs. TNA only did a 3.6, and Austin did a 3.7, a 3.2 for a normal show seems plausible. I talked to a few casual fans who tuned in last week to see Austin and were dissapointed in how little he did, so that may have turned people off as well.

 

TNA is clearly costing WWE a few viewers at this point. I hope Vince gets ticked off and goes into war mode because that always brings out the best in him.

[Marty]

I can believe the RAW number. I don't recall much hype for the show going in aside from Pete Rose as guest host and the handicap tag match.

[KrisZ]

Meltz thinks Dancing With The Stars hurt the 1st hour rating and it did a big number.

[KrisZ]

In all fairness, Dusty should've taken a break from booking in 1987 because every booker gets burnt out after a long booking stint and with guys there like Dundee, Gilbert, Dillon, & Kevin Sullivan then Gary Hart coming in during 1988 they could've gotten somewhat fresher and Dusty could've focused only on wrestling. The thing was that Jim Crockett was married to Dusty professionally and I think even if Dusty wanted to take a break, Crockett would've made him stay.

I don't think Dusty had any desire to take a break. Super Booking Genius, and he loved calling the shots. My preference would have been for him to take a break from the *wrestling* and focus on the book, and building a team to run a national promotion. I don't know... perhaps at the time you cut in Turner, you also give Dusty a cut similar to what the Brothers did with Dana White. 5-10%... Dusty has a vested interesting in the group... get him out of the ring... turn him into the old Bill Watts role... and limit his "comebacks" to a single GAB Tour every two years in just tag matches underneath the double main events. "Retire" at Starcade 1986, GAB Comebacks for 1988, 1990, etc. If your goal is to get Starcade on PPV in 1987, then shoot for lauching a second PPV with the GAB in 1988 with Dusty's "special return" as one of the other selling points. Long term planning.

 

Dusty was really quite suffocating as a wrestler by the middle of 1987... and it went on for more than a year and a half afte that. 1986 would have been a great send off for him: win the World Title at the Bash, and then line up a proper Final Match at Starcade.

 

"It's a new era for new stars..." type of promo. Let Crockett give him the equiv of Commissioner back then. Can't be President of the NWA... but give him some other NWA related handle like Chairman of the Competition Committee or some such bullshit. Don't get him physically involved in matches, and have a nice running joke of heels wanting to smack him around but if they do they'll get suspended and "blacklisted" from the NWA (yes... use that term). Heels keep backing off from that one because (as JJ and Corny can explain) that would cost them their livelihood and they wouldn't be able to feed their kids, yadder, yadder. Then when someone actually does layout Dusty with a chair in 1988, it's a "Holy Shit" moment built up for a year and a half.

 

 

Barry Windham getting the title from Flair in 1987 could've worked as well but if I was in charge of JCP when the UWF was bought, DiBiase gets a long-term deal, then we do the UWF invasion setting up Flair/DiBiase at Starrcade title vs. title to determine the unified champion, DiBiase wins the title as the heel then we have a babyface Flair who would leave the Horsemen, Luger, Sting, Windham, Nikita challenging DiBiase for the title

My worry about Barry getting the title in 1987 is that it's a Career Peak and then a Career Dead End. What does Barry's career look like if he's instantly down at a non-World Title level. I think in those days there always was the risk of being Tommy Rich.

 

I think even Savage never was in the WWF (in his first run) quite at the same level after his first World Title run. They flat out busted their ass to make the feud with Warrior work, and it did. But the Macho King gimmick was a far cry from his 1986-89 peak. His stuff with Flair had a shot, but they couldn't bring it off.

 

It was a different era, and the World Title (in both promotions) was just an entirely different level. Very few people like Dusty could take a Cup of Coffee with it and *not* have it impact their careers where they looked lesser once they no longer held the belt. I'm not even sure that Kerry for the rest of 1984 and into 1985 was quite the same after he had fullfilled the Quest of the Von Erics going back more than a decade. Perhaps on a local level they could pawn off how Kerry got screwed in Japan, but if you're a national promotion... back then it was kind of hard to bury that this guy who won the title is now just one of the guys, especially when you're a face.

 

That's not a problem as much with an older vet. But Barry at the time looked like he had a great future.

 

I'm totally down with you on Ted. But I wouldn't have wasted my time buying the UWF and doing a UWF vs NWA feud. I simply would have picked off talent.

 

Dusty had issues with some of them, which is too bad. Of course the Birds were out-of-control to some degree, but lordy they would have been a nice compliment to JCP (especially if Gordy took the time to get the knee done). Of course Ted being brought in would have been great, and like I said above, I would have put him with the Horsemen with Flair going face. Don't know if I would have gone face with Flair forever, but by 1987-88, the time was really ripe for him to go face. You just needed a strong World Champ level heel opposite him. Can't think of anyone better for that role than Ted.

 

John

 

A Four Horsemen with DiBiase, Doc, Tully, & Arn would've been nuts. Regarding the UWF roster there were some good pieces there that an invasion could've worked with guys like DiBiase, Doc, Birds, Gang, Gilbert, Taylor, Adams, Sting, Steiner, Iceman, Chavo, even Gary Young.

 

Imagine the first War Games looking like this

 

Team NWA (Dusty, Flair, Nikita, Arn, & Tully) vs. Team UWF (DiBiase, Doc, Freebirds)

 

Then you would have Flair working babyface in this war with the story that the Horsemen thought he went soft hence losing the title and they lock up with DiBiase & Doc to form the new Horsemen. Flair & Luger then break off maybe hooking up with Sting & Windham to form another foursome to counter off that.

[kjh]

I think the JCP vs. UWF fantasy booking loses sight that buying Watt's out and paying for the UWF's syndicated television network was a real drain on JCP's finances in 1987. You can do the invasion angle without buying the company out. So buying the company was really a waste of time and money.

 

On a different note - 2010 is the year Matt Hardy finally needs to learn to shut the f*** up. See Matt Hardy's latest YouTube video to see what I'm talking about.

[Loss]

I've always suspected -- and this is possibly wrong -- that the NWA vs UWF would not have worked, simply because the UWF was not seen at the same level as Crockett and the WWF. Yes, it was broadcast nationally in syndication, but Crockett was much stronger and had more nationally known talent. Using DiBiase, Doc, the Freebirds, Terry Taylor, etc. in key roles would have been great and probably worked and helped freshen up JCP talent that was starting to get stale. But I question what the UWF brand actually meant to wrestling fans in 1987.

 

On that note, because the WWF destroyed him, we forget how it seemed like the sky was the limit for him at the time, but Terry Taylor could have come into Crockett as a near top level heel and probably had a great feud with someone like Barry Windham. DiBiase was probably a better pick for that role, but weighing the pros and cons of using Taylor in that role is also worth discussing. The guy was considered the next Flair by the hardcores after turning heel, and he was considered one of the top future stars.

[KrisZ]

Dusty hated Terry Taylor going back to 1985 where they had a very bad falling out seeing Taylor return to Mid-South.

 

With the right booking, the UWF could've been made as an equal to Crockett after the buyout, that's the problem because after that they were made completely inferior as Dusty brought in his mid to low carders in there to be equals to the UWF stars.

[KrisZ]

Another thing that doesn't really get talked about is that Crockett was very close to buying World Class in the Spring of 1988 which would've really been something to see with the Von Erichs in JCP.

[Bix]

Another thing that doesn't really get talked about is that Crockett was very close to buying World Class in the Spring of 1988 which would've really been something to see with the Von Erichs in JCP.

I've never heard that before. Are you sure that you're not thinking of TBS considering dropping JCP and negotiating with WCCW, Global Wrestling in Florida, and Ole Anderson around that time?

[KrisZ]

Go back to the 1988 Observers. Meltz mentions it a couple of times I think in April or May.

[sek69]

Considering WCCW was just about dead, that would have been a worse purchase than the UWF turned out to be.

[KrisZ]

I'm sure the ESPN deal was what was intriguing for Crockett.

[Dan]

I was looking at some old WONs and found that there were 'Best of the Half-Decade' (2000-2004) awards.

 

It's sort of interesting how rapidly things change.

 

Angle was Wrestler of the Half-Decade(!) W. Silva and Bob Sapp were also in the top ten.

 

Benoit was Most Outstanding WoTHD. Angle is number 2.

 

Of all the top ten Best Long-Term Drawing Cards, only HHH (no. 8) is still relevant. (Sapp placed no. 2.)

 

Benoit managed to win both Best Brawler and Best Technical awards.

 

The Best Promotion of the HD is defunct and mostly forgotten (Pride). WWE was no. 2; UFC, no. 5; ROH, no 6. TNA failed to place in the top ten.

[KrisZ]

Bill Goldberg just posted on Twitter that he is in negotiations with WWE and that TNA missed the boat as they didn't even try.

 

This is interesting.

[Loss]

I think too much time has passed for Goldberg to mean anything. He barely meant anything in his last run as it was.

[KrisZ]

I actually think he may be going in as an announcer.