Is the knock on George Scott for 88-89 run unfair?

[JerryvonKramer]

7 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

I think heel Andre was the draw at Mania III? Vader vs Sting (Vader vs anyone in WCW) is another guess.

I think the answer to your question is an easy "yes", I'm just not the person to give enough examples. Are you considering Superstar Graham a "tweener"? 

Andre is a very special case who had a fifteen year undefeated streak plus a massive heel turn plus the fact he was Andre plus the fact that hot Hogan was his opponent.

[Loss]

It's a difficult thing to really prove to be true or untrue. I tend to think it's a little bit more complicated than that.

[JerryvonKramer]

I remember Bill Watts talking about it in one of his old shoots, I think he was talking about differences between a guy like JYD and a guy like Ted DiBiase. Something along the lines of you need the star heel to make the match, to give you the experience, memories, etc. etc., but you need the charismatic babyface to talk the people into the building in the first place.

 

Kind of interesting, what's going through the mind of the fan at the moment of purchase vs. what they actually enjoy when they are at the show. Seems to me the drawing babyface gives you the former while the star heel gives you the latter.

 

With Flair, however, he was SO charismatic that I could see a case that he was a legit draw in his own right even as a heel, since he had that "cool factor". Certainly 1985 Flair vs. Dusty seems like a draw to me, but these cases are quite rare. Seems to me that fans around Mid-Atlantic / Georgia area were looking for excuses to cheer for Flair as early as 1980. Hence why it was always so easy to make him a babyface like in 1983 and 1993.

[Loss]

Before the Omni angle in fall of 1985, Flair was a heel at times, but he would just sort of dabble in it and quickly back away. Dusty was an attraction guy before that and Flair was one of their own, so there was definitely an element of the JCP fanbase that never accepted Flair as a heel. That's probably why babyface Flair taking on Nikita drew such a massive crowd at the first Bash.

Stick To Wrestling (w/John McAdam) is a podcast I think you'd enjoy. He had one of his friends on once from the Carolinas who talked about how they were turned off by Flair becoming a real heel because his whole appeal was that he came out as this class act in expensive clothes who was above all of that. Maybe his heel tendencies showed in some feuds and his babyface tendencies in others, but really, he triangulated for the most part. That was one way they kept him special.

[Ricky Jackson]

3 hours ago, JerryvonKramer said:

Sheik burnt out Detroit. Graham had a “special reign” as noted above. George and Rogers perhaps benefited from being the first TV stars, but we would also have to look at how they were booked and who were their challengers.

That doesn't discount all the years the Sheik was a huge draw, most famously in Toronto. Rarely bellow 10k in MLG, twice a month for 5 years. Remove him from those cards and you dont have that attraction. The fans truly hated him and wanted to see him finally lose.

Sure, TV made George. But he was still a draw. Not for a very long time, but he was the reason people were buying tickets, to see this outrageous character from TV.

Rogers was a major draw at his peak on the early 60s. This cant be waved away as him being "just one of the first TV stars". Like the Sheik he was despised, but also for some, a cool heel. Doesn't matter, he drew.

Graham was a reach, yes, as outlined. Still, I would contend he was a draw, with his unique for the time look and hip promo style, just not on the same level as the others I mentioned. His track record at MSG as far as being part of sold out main events was amazing if nothing else.

Another one I thought of later was Ray Stevens in 1960s SF. I saw the numbers years ago in the WON and they were very impressive 

[Infinit]

I think it's kind of disingenuous to discount the importance of heels in the drawing equation. Would Hogan have been as transcendent a face in 84/85 without Piper as his foil? Would R&R and Road Warriors have been as beloved and as wildly cheered without the Midnights and Russians? Especially in the territory days, fans were draw to shows weekly to see heels get their comeuppance. Even main eventing JCP b towns, MX vs R&R was drawing significant numbers 7 days a week in 85/86.

[Ricky Jackson]

Exactly. Just as an example, I looked at Hogan's record at the Spectrum from 84-87 not too long ago. Attendance for Hogan main evented shows fluctuated wildly depending on the heel. Savage and Orndorff moved the needle. Patera and Adonis did not. Hogan himself wasn't a guarentee for a strong house 

[jdw]

Just for some clarity, since people have bounced around different dates:

Scott took over as booker after Steamboat had been signed, the Flair-Steamer Chicago PPV card was locked in behind the scenes, and the Flair & Barry vs Gilbert & Mystery Wrestlerboat was taped.  Cornette has it "by February 1", and the it's in the first issue of the WON in Feb though teased the issue before.  I'd place it as the last week of January, with Dave making the comment that the "first Scott shows" would be a week or more into Feb.

Dave was very explicit on when Scott got fired - the Tuesday after the April Clash.

He was in chance for a week or so over two months.

* * * * *

There's a lot of blame that Scott's run is shaped by Cornette ripping him. I guess for newer fans.  The notion that Scott was shitty in this stretch goes back to... this stretch. He got shat on in the WON. The Torch's are someone in a box, but I'm sure that all of the columnists shat on him.  I'm guessing the Matwatches are now in the public domain with recent collecting and sharing, and it's quite possible he was shat on there.  It really was there from the start in real time.

I think a decent amount of that spread onto the net before Cornette got a chance to rip Scott in the past decade plus.  My guess is that if one looked on Wrestling Classics they will find some praise of Scott in JCP/Mid-Atlantic in the 70s, not much praise for his work elsewhere in the 80s, and him being a punchline for his 1989 run in WCW. Cornette was just the cherry on top, though frankly Jimbo ripped most everyone else from 1989 onward even more than Scott simply because Scott was a fly on the ass of things that went south for Jimmy.