WALTER

[Tetsujin]

He just had the most ambitious big match in WWE since... Idk, maybe Triple H vs Ambrose (sounds wild I know).

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Everyone likes to tout these indie "sensations" who wrestle for mudshows like DPW or whatever, saying they're doing proper gritty, hard-hitting, old-school wrestling. The majority of all those wrestlers are terrible. Because if you're actually that good, you go to WWE, become world champion and main event for millions of dollars. WALTER/Gunther is one of those indie guys that was actually as good as advertised. 

One of the greats of the modern era, a lock for the top 100. Has all the tools. Elevates any match he is in. Has adapted and grown his style within the confines of the restrictive WWE system, and thrived. Fairly confident in saying he is the best European wrestler in WWE since Andre.

[highflyflow]

"you're not a good enough worker if you don't main event in WWE" is a hell of an opinion to hold while participating in a project like this.

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

1 hour ago, highflyflow said:

"you're not a good enough worker if you don't main event in WWE" is a hell of an opinion to hold while participating in a project like this.

That isn't what I said. My statement is, if you are THAT much better than your contemporaries you will eventually go to WWE and main event, because making the most money and wrestling in front of huge audiences is the end goal for 95 per cent of wrestlers.

Considering WWE had a virtual monopoly over professional wrestling in the western world for two decades, it's only natural. If you were a gifted indie wrestler in the 2000s/2010s, you eventually went to WWE if you were good enough, and you tried to become a main eventer. Bryan, AJ, Joe, Punk, Low Ki, Hero, Black, Aries, Moxley, Black, Ciampa, Gargano, Ricochet, PAC, Balor, Owens, Zayn, KENTA et al. ad nauseum.

Gunther/WALTER has done better than many of those names, due to his ability to adapt his work and himself, and his flexibility in that regard is a credit to him.

[El McKell]

Do you think if CM Punk and Daniel Bryan weren't at least moderate successes WWE would've hired Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Chris Hero, Austin Aries, Jon Moxley, Tyler Black, Ricochet, PAC, Prince Devitt, Kevin Steen or El Generico? Probably not. 

We can say Bryan and Punk were successful because of their talent allowing the cream to rise to the top, but if they just happened to be not as good why should that reflect on all these other wrestlers' ability?

[highflyflow]

13 hours ago, Mantaur Rodeo Clown said:

That isn't what I said. My statement is, if you are THAT much better than your contemporaries you will eventually go to WWE and main event, because making the most money and wrestling in front of huge audiences is the end goal for 95 per cent of wrestlers.

Considering WWE had a virtual monopoly over professional wrestling in the western world for two decades, it's only natural. If you were a gifted indie wrestler in the 2000s/2010s, you eventually went to WWE if you were good enough, and you tried to become a main eventer. Bryan, AJ, Joe, Punk, Low Ki, Hero, Black, Aries, Moxley, Black, Ciampa, Gargano, Ricochet, PAC, Balor, Owens, Zayn, KENTA et al. ad nauseum.

Gunther/WALTER has done better than many of those names, due to his ability to adapt his work and himself, and his flexibility in that regard is a credit to him.

With all due respect, who could possibly care about this? I don't care that a wrestler didn't get courted by one of the worst, most laughably moronic promotions in wrestling, that's actively emphasizing recruiting athletes to their awful PC system in favor of indie darlings. Is it a testament to those that did break through the glass ceiling in the biggest wrestling promotion in the world? Sure, and it's completely fine to value that when looking at their case, but if not then I really don't see it as a big deal, given their remarkably narrow view on what makes a good and successful wrestler in the first place.

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

16 hours ago, highflyflow said:

With all due respect, who could possibly care about this? I don't care that a wrestler didn't get courted by one of the worst, most laughably moronic promotions in wrestling, that's actively emphasizing recruiting athletes to their awful PC system in favor of indie darlings. Is it a testament to those that did break through the glass ceiling in the biggest wrestling promotion in the world? Sure, and it's completely fine to value that when looking at their case, but if not then I really don't see it as a big deal, given their remarkably narrow view on what makes a good and successful wrestler in the first place.

I mean just going off your description of WWE, it's clear you have some teenage angst-y axe to grind against it and I'm clearly not going to change your opinion on it. The fact of the matter is that being able to adapt your style and work in any promotion and get over anywhere is a marker of a great wrestler. If you can't get over even in a "remarkably narrow" situation, you probably aren't one of the 100 Greatest Wrestlers Ever. There are plenty of wrestlers who were over in the American Legion Hall in Reseda. But can you get a crowd invested at Smackdown house show in Corpus Christi? 

 

22 hours ago, El McKell said:

Do you think if CM Punk and Daniel Bryan weren't at least moderate successes WWE would've hired Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Chris Hero, Austin Aries, Jon Moxley, Tyler Black, Ricochet, PAC, Prince Devitt, Kevin Steen or El Generico? Probably not. 

We can say Bryan and Punk were successful because of their talent allowing the cream to rise to the top, but if they just happened to be not as good why should that reflect on all these other wrestlers' ability?

I do not understand what you are trying to say. 

[highflyflow]

4 hours ago, Mantaur Rodeo Clown said:

The fact of the matter is that being able to adapt your style and work in any promotion and get over anywhere is a marker of a great wrestler

Really, any promotion? Even mudshow Indies?

4 hours ago, Mantaur Rodeo Clown said:

There are plenty of wrestlers who were over in the American Legion Hall in Reseda. But can you get a crowd invested at Smackdown house show in Corpus Christi?

Again I ask, who cares? Why would the latter outweigh the former in this situation? 

[Dav'oh]

3 hours ago, highflyflow said:

Why would the latter outweigh the former in this situation? 

Because the greats leave their mark on the world (population: 8 billion), not just Reseda (population: LOL).

[HeadCheese]

Having adaptability and range (outside of their usual comfort zone) is one of the important. Somopething to remember WWE (or no company) is the world of wrestling. There's people that work whose work works in international companies that doesn't work as well on a smaller scale. 

I think it great compliment to WALTER as wrestler/presence that basically WXW/Ringkampf Big Daddy Walter worked and did great in so many places just in his ace of show, tv wrestling, WWE house shows, studio wrestling, empty arena wrestling, and stadium main events.

Even taking out his WWE work out of it. He has range of being ace/teacher of WXW, being the outside overdog, wrestling shoot style matches, working in PWG, being the star European indies boom (or atleast top three), a very good tag team wrestler, and being well in BJW.

[HeadCheese]

4 hours ago, highflyflow said:

Really, any promotion? Even mudshow Indies?

I think even their work on mudshow smaller shows are important. Its not a case breaker but, I think it is really interesting and can help a wrestlers to see what kind of performance they bring when the wrestlers assume that nobody but, the audience will watch the match. I really like watching fan cams of wrestling matches at county fairs for that reason. The wrestler doesnt have to have all time great/body breaking performance at mudshow indies but, I would like them to at least see them make mental effort and be checked in.

I dont know if this on purpose but, something that really stands out to me. Is this Buddy Wayne and Buddy Rose clip. I dont know if this show made tape or even what this show is (because there is no cagematch to it), I am even sure if this is a planned thing. Buddy Rose out his prime breaks the ring but, still had the checked in-ness to continue fighting with Buddy Wayne despite the awkward situation, his selling is still really good.

[funkdoc]

On 8/9/2025 at 10:11 AM, Dav'oh said:

Because the greats leave their mark on the world (population: 8 billion), not just Reseda (population: LOL).

That's not going to land with someone who lists Big Black & the Gerogerigegege among their favorite bands (hi it's me)

Poptimism has outlived its usefulness and more people seem to be realizing that - it should not be the job of art critics to boost the biggest corporations.

[El-P]

2 hours ago, funkdoc said:

That's not going to land with someone who lists Big Black & the Gerogerigegege among their favorite bands (hi it's me)

Poptimism has outlived its usefulness and more people seem to be realizing that - it should not be the job of art critics to boost the biggest corporations.

Bolded = most delightfully random namderopping on this forum ever ! I love me some Big Black.

And yeah, poptimism has overstayed its welcome a while ago. And the myth of meritocracy is also dying, as it should in pro-wrestling too. The reason why Gunther has been pushed so much is just because Triple H is a sucker for iron crosses and shit. Let's be real, he probably thinks there's a chance the gimmick is legit...

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

6 hours ago, funkdoc said:

That's not going to land with someone who lists Big Black & the Gerogerigegege among their favorite bands (hi it's me)

Poptimism has outlived its usefulness and more people seem to be realizing that - it should not be the job of art critics to boost the biggest corporations.

Impossible challenge: Pro wrestling forum poster doesn't draw extremely long bow to make 8th-grade level point about "SOCIETY, MAN" and attempt to tie it back to wrestling.

I'm almost shocked you didn't make a McDonalds analogy there. 

Besides being a questionable analogy in the first place, has absolutely nothing to do with Gunther's ability as a wrestler and status as one of the modern greats who has risen to the top of his field.

[Dav'oh]

10 hours ago, funkdoc said:

That's not going to land with someone who lists Big Black & the Gerogerigegege among their favorite bands (hi it's me)

I do (I really do) intend to make this point in greater detail elsewhere, but wouldn't that qualify those bands as 100 Favourite Bands Ever, or 100 Best Bands ever, rather than 100 GREATEST Bands ever?

[HeadCheese]

I think with stuff list like this with entertainment. It's okay to lean to favorites as long the person voting is critical, open to more than one vision of wrestling (ex: making a list from one or two promotions), and not lean too much into generalities.

Its impossible to proabably make a one person complete greatest wrestler list or greatest bands list because it's impossible to watch every wrestler or listen to every band.