Phil Schneider Posted September 8, 2025 Posted September 8, 2025 Did I miss Pantera on your list of guys, we just had him in for DEAN 3, and he looked fucking awesome. Hechicero is a guy with enough of a resume at this point to be considered too (also looked awesome on Saturday)
TheBean Posted May 27 Posted May 27 Just want to say this is a great post by cad! Invaluable as I start to get into lucha libre. Just wanted to bump this also in case anyone else is interested.
cad Posted May 28 Author Posted May 28 Thanks, I appreciate it. I hope you do get into lucha and find plenty here to disagree with.
Microstatistics Posted Tuesday at 12:53 AM Posted Tuesday at 12:53 AM Lucha took a real hiding this time but it's not too surprising because the stylistic disconnect from the Japanese/American styles is just too much for the majority of people. Hell, I'm not one to talk since, aside the tippy top guys and a few around the upper-middle regions of the list (Hechicero, Casas, Pirata), my list featured far fewer luchadores than it did in the past. I mean Santo & Satanico are unreal and there is high-end lucha I really cherish, but I think I am now aligned with the general consensus that Mexico is a distant #3, relative to Japan and USA, when it comes to professional wrestling.
Tetsujin Posted Tuesday at 07:19 AM Posted Tuesday at 07:19 AM Lucha has ten really interesting years going forward. Both WWE and AEW are getting stronger within it, be it with AAA or CMLL, and while the consequences of that for current Lucha might be concerning, I ask myself if it's possible that both big American companies showcasing mexican wrestling to a broader audience might get more people interested in its past.
ohtani's jacket Posted Tuesday at 10:32 AM Posted Tuesday at 10:32 AM 9 hours ago, Microstatistics said: Lucha took a real hiding this time but it's not too surprisingly because the stylistic disconnect from the Japanese/American styles is just too much for the majority of people. Hell, I'm not one to talk since, aside the tippy top guys and a few around the upper-middle regions of the list (Hechicero, Casas, Pirata), my list featured far fewer luchadores than it did in the past. I mean Santo & Satanico are unreal and there is high-end lucha I really cherish, but I think I am now aligned with the general consensus that Mexico is a distant #3, relative to Japan and USA, when it comes to professional wrestling. Well, I dunno about that. It has a rich wrestling history. It just needs to be curated better.
Matt D Posted Tuesday at 10:45 AM Posted Tuesday at 10:45 AM Lucha can be very vibes based. It’ll be pretty funny if the kids find and glom onto Octagon and Rayo, Jr. or something.
ohtani's jacket Posted Tuesday at 11:57 AM Posted Tuesday at 11:57 AM 1 hour ago, Matt D said: Lucha can be very vibes based. It’ll be pretty funny if the kids find and glom onto Octagon and Rayo, Jr. or something. There's probably morality play stuff that might resonate with the younger crowd.
Scarletlikesounds Posted Tuesday at 12:52 PM Posted Tuesday at 12:52 PM 2 hours ago, Matt D said: Lucha can be very vibes based. It’ll be pretty funny if the kids find and glom onto Octagon and Rayo, Jr. or something. I can totally see fans my age being really high on Octagon
Scarletlikesounds Posted Tuesday at 01:01 PM Posted Tuesday at 01:01 PM Ive watched some more stuff even since I've voted In GWE and now I would probably vote for: Hijo Del Santo LA Park El Satanico Negro Casas Silver King Black Terry Virus Perro Aguayo Hechicero Misterio Jr. Wagner Jr. El Dandy Villano III Demus I voted Mistico this year really high but I'm not entirely sure about him, a lot of that was recency bias. I could still see it though. I need to go back and watch some more Sangre Chicana. I've really liked what I've seen from Emilio Charles Jr. but I'm not set on that yet. It turns out I REALLY like Silver King, Texano too but King specifically.
cad Posted Wednesday at 03:12 AM Author Posted Wednesday at 03:12 AM On 6/1/2026 at 8:53 PM, Microstatistics said: I mean Santo & Satanico are unreal and there is high-end lucha I really cherish, but I think I am now aligned with the general consensus that Mexico is a distant #3, relative to Japan and USA, when it comes to professional wrestling. This is a nice example of the phenomenon, unique to Satanico, wherein his greatness serves to bring down all of his countrymen. I'm not talking crazy when I bring that up. Sometimes a rising tide lifts all boats, and sometimes it just drowns a bunch of people. But that's okay. Microstatistics takes their wrestling seriously, and I'm sure has come to that position earnestly. Can't ask for any more that that. Even if someone were to reject Mexico's offerings frivolously, that'd be fine too. Lucha spent years excluded from serious discussions about great wrestling. I'm sure a bunch of people became hardcore fans without ever imagining that would involve having opinions on stuff from Mexico. It bummed me out to see posters saying that their disconnect with lucha dissuaded them from submitting a ballot this year. There was a bunch of stuff I couldn't get into either, and that sure as shit didn't stop me. I wouldn't want people watching old CMLL as some kind of homework assignment. You should watch it because there's nothing you'd rather be doing at that moment, except perhaps falling in love.
Stephen- Posted Wednesday at 02:23 PM Posted Wednesday at 02:23 PM So I ended up voting for... El Hijo del Santo (16) Negro Casas (17) El Satanico (26) Sangre Chicana (29) El Dandy (46) Rush (50) Perro Aguayo (68) LA Park (73) Atlantis (78) Virus (82) Mistico (84) Hechicero (92) Guerrero Maya Jr. (100) ... 13 luchadores, not including Rey Jr. or Eddy. I was close to voting for Blue Panther, Black Terry, Lizmark, Emilio Charles Jr, Mascarita Dorada, and MS-1, but ended up not including them. I am pretty pleased with the group I did land on.
HeadCheese Posted Wednesday at 11:09 PM Posted Wednesday at 11:09 PM Ended up voting for Dr. Wagner Jr (#1) LA Park (#4) El Hijo Del Santo (#11) Blue Panther (#16) Mistico (#22) Negro Casas (#31) Rush (#46) Rey Fenix (#62) El Satanico (#70) - Will proabably be higher after watching more Ultimo Guerrero (#76) Rambo (#83) Demus (#94) Mascarita Dorada (#98) Was highly considering Atlantis, Dos Caras, Hector Garza. Perro Aguayo Jr, Villano III, and Wotan
Microstatistics Posted yesterday at 09:04 PM Posted yesterday at 09:04 PM On 6/2/2026 at 8:12 PM, cad said: This is a nice example of the phenomenon, unique to Satanico, wherein his greatness serves to bring down all of his countrymen. I'm not talking crazy when I bring that up. Sometimes a rising tide lifts all boats, and sometimes it just drowns a bunch of people. Honestly, Santo was even more guilty of this. Watching the guy work high-end brawls, technical bouts, and bombfests over 25+ years left almost everyone else in the dust. Also, for what it's worth, I did come to the aforementioned conclusion with a heavy heart. I wanted to always like lucha more than I objectively do (and I like it a lot since I ranked Santo #3, Satanico #6, Hechicero #29, Casas #40, Pirata Morgan #61, El Dandy #75, Rush #81, Mocho Cota #89), but can no longer deny the gulf in output. Still, the heritage is undeniable and it's disappointing when people dismiss Lucha out of hand.
ohtani's jacket Posted yesterday at 10:00 PM Posted yesterday at 10:00 PM That's because Santo was one of the most formulaic wrestlers of all-time, and if there were any sort of decent discourse surrounding him, the point would be well-discussed. I'm generally of the opinion that it's exciting every time you see it, but that's because I don't watch a lot of Santo matches in succession. You can't really compare it to the genius of Casas, who was a superior performer to Santo in terms of adlibbing and improvisation. I think it makes more sense to compare Santo to the likes of Solar, Lizmark and Atlantis with the knowledge that Santo had far more control over his career, and was aided by a famous father and legendary mask. Santo was an excellent wrestler, no doubt, but he doesn't leave this guys in the dust if you break down what they're actually doing in the ring. One of the most enlightening moments I ever had online was a guy breaking down the AAA Psicosis/Santo singles bout and pointing out the flaws in it. If there were more posts like that, I think we'd have a better handle on exactly how good Santo is.
Microstatistics Posted 23 hours ago Posted 23 hours ago I don't even disagree with that point, in all honesty. In fact, that was the reasoning for why Santo was outside my Top 10 and Casas in it back in 2016. Santo is probably not the guy if one emphasizes the mininutiae of the work (though that's probably also a reductive take) and someone like Casas was more about little flourishes and deviations from the norm. But, when it comes to matches as a holistic package (the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and all that), that's where Santo far outshines Casas (who is also great) for me. I know cad hates hyperbolic praise around Satanico and understandably so, but I wonder if he was the only luchador to couple both criteria at the highest level.
Matt D Posted 10 hours ago Posted 10 hours ago Speaking of the lack of critical analysis of lucha over time.. Guess who this 1990 quote I just came across is from... "I'm not the world's biggest Lucha Libre fan. To me, it's kind of like you sit and watch a bunch of bad wrestling waiting for the spectacular dives during the finishes."
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