Resident Evil

I'm really not trying to harp on this.. But.. My previous point stands. Aren't you going offtopic here? This is a Kobashi thread. Training/Working out is an essential part of prowrestling. They are forever linked. Eh, how's that creepy to want to hear some workout stories? I love to workout. I love to hear workout theories. I love to hear fascinating workout stuff. I like to see th effect of stuff. For the person themselves and for the wrestling I like to hear stories about people pushing themselves as motivation. Wether it's Bruce Lee doing 1 finger pushups or Angle's insane workouts for the Olympics or someone doing breathing squats or a dojo wrestling story -- I want to hear about it. It's just curiousity about a natural mannish thing to do. l part What's so creepy about that? Am I just supposed to like and talk about Cabbage Patch Kids or My Little Pony or makeup or something?

Thanks for the response Ohtani's Jacket.

Yeah, I know who's most likely on and off and if they're abusing/on less and all of that. The one thing I don't like to do though is accuse people of doing it beforehand or present it as fact if the fact is not proven true. Even with the super obvious cases. I'm not commenting or giving my opinion on Kobashi/roids at all for the time being. I just think it's the respectful thing to do. One can speculate but I don't like to pass it off as fact. I was just pointing out that there was some speculation here that was kind of presented as fact I'm the last person turns a blind eye to anything wether it be steroids or other drugs like alcohol,nicotine or crack. Benoit was one of the most obvious users of bodybuilding drugs in wrestling.

I don't know if anyone truly knows about Kobashi and roids besides guesswork. I'd love to hear some Kobashi workout stories. Anyone share if they can.

It's the mindset of what it takes to be a professional wrestler. I understand it because I some of the same qualities mentally. If I was a wrestler, I know I'd have a hard time getting away from it.

Yes, it exists on tape. JDW's list is from awhile back I believe so he couldn't have been talking about this match since it came out on one of the New Japan classic type shows fairly recently. It is an obvious setup match for the Benoit vs Kanemoto title fight on 3/13/95. It gives the title fight some more story. I remember the match so if you want to know anything about it, I'll tell you. Almost every Benoit match that I know exists on videotape is right here. http://prowrestlingonly.com/blog/wildpegas...hp?showentry=26 I haven't updated the list in a long time and don't know if I fixed everything up in it. I don't have the heart for it anymore. However, I'm not going to delete it. I have no idea what match he's talking about. I'd assume JDW (he can speak for himself) saw it live or something because the 3/95 tag is not up to the level of 10/16/94 or 10/9/94. I don't want to spoil the match here but the match in question was not meant to be a epic. Still the tournament final pairing prove they have chemistry under different circumstances. That pairing of Benoit/Eddie/Kanemoto/Ohtani is certainly capable though.

As someone who has read tons of bodybuilding mags and seen lots of pictures over the years -- It's very decieving and tricky at times to accurately figure stuff like this out. I've always had trouble with it myself. Lighting, angles, posing, bodyfat percentage can all be tricky. Look at the size of Benoit compared to his oppenents in NJPW 99/2000 compared to 1995. There are a few matches of his there and you can really tell the difference. From the tights and face, it looks like the middle picture is from 93 where video footage tells us Benoit was smaller and not as ripped. Benoit was obviously not taking as much stuff than before he started getting bigger again in 94. Yet, that is an awesome picture and he looks as big as he ever has looked in it. But there's no way that Benoit was bigger or more cut in 93 than he was in the WWE/WWF. Just look at him against the heavies than compared to the heavies in the WWF. Just an example of how a picture can fool you. One other thing is that we're just looking at the upperbody which is only part of the body. Benoit is known for having an upper body and legs that aren't as proportionately big looking. (Please note that tights or other clothes that stick close to your body make your legs look extra skinny). Still, legs are the biggest muscle and the foundation for muscles in your body. Once your legs are bigger, your upper body can become bigger too. You can see the extra thickness in Benoit's legs in the WWF/WWE compared to earlier in his career meaning he's holding more weight and muscle.

They do care about (possibly) mentally retarded seven year olds. What? Benoit was much bigger in the mid '90s then he was the last several years of his life. He was still immensely juiced up, but he was smaller. No he wasn't bigger in the mid 90s. He was bigger by a good margin in the WWF/WWE. Mid 90s he was humongous for his size and extremely cut (low bodyfat percentage) but he kept on adding weight after that. At the end of his WCW reign he was already bigger than when he got there (mid 90s). Than after he went to the WWF/WWE he got even bigger. I knew he was on more juice at the time to accomplish that. Initially, back in 2000 it was one of the reasons why I didn't want him to go the WWF. I'd knew he eventually get bigger due to them wanting everyone big and that'd probably be due to more outside help. I was right. IIRC, you can really notice this if you watch a few of Benoit's NJPW matches in 1999/2000 compared to years past. Same thing with Eddie too. Eddie was unbelievably cut in 97 (cut meaning low body percentage, to be like that all the time when even bodybuilders can't really do it is incredible) and muscular but smaller in the WCW. In the WWF/WWE he grew similar to Benoit.

Holy shit. Santo has been in the same ring as Benoit?!?!?!? Please tell me this match exists on tape? 11/16/94 is the date. I don't think that match exists on tape though there is a clipped (not much footage shown) 8 man tag match from 11/21/94 and I think Santo is that. It's clipped and it's good fun but I don't really remember any Benoit vs Santo. There's a prominent Mexico tag in 92 with Benoit vs Santo that looks very promising given the particpants but no footage has ever come up from it. I can't even remember who's in it now due to poor memory.

Yes, it exists on tape. JDW's list is from awhile back I believe so he couldn't have been talking about this match since it came out on one of the New Japan classic type shows fairly recently. It is an obvious setup match for the Benoit vs Kanemoto title fight on 3/13/95. It gives the title fight some more story. I remember the match so if you want to know anything about it, I'll tell you. Almost every Benoit match that I know exists on videotape is right here. http://prowrestlingonly.com/blog/wildpegas...hp?showentry=26 I haven't updated the list in a long time and don't know if I fixed everything up in it. I don't have the heart for it anymore. However, I'm not going to delete it.

Long term, I doubt it. Look at boxing, which has a periodic habit of having top boxers lapse into comas or death. Gerald McClellan being the most high-profile that comes to mind. A small percentage of fans turn away each time, but it does little long-term damage to the sport. Interesting point.

A lot of good points here. One thing I would like to point out is that there are a signifigant amount of people out there who have been jumping at the chance to cheer Kobashi for recovering from cancer and coming back from wrestling. See the youtube thread (please no jokes about youtube comments) or deathvalley thread for instance. Perhaps on the other side of the coin there aren't as many people cheering for a comeback now but to be honost, I don't remember reading negative comments anymore. Maybe it's where you look at. But has Benoit stopped people from getting behind wrestlers who are trying to navigate down a dangerous path? If so, how much?

Perhaps he shouldn't be the rule of thumb as Benoit pushed his body harder than anyone (until the water balloon bust ) but he is a humongous warning symbol to everyone in the wrestling world of what can happen. I don't think it's an entirely unique situation. I think we've already seen drastic results of brain damage and drug use effecting wrestlers behaviors. Let's not forget about the football players either. Let's also not forget the behaviour of some wrestlers today due to brain damage. I can see more possible murders in the future and part of that will be no doubt partly due to brain damage along with drug use.

Yeah, after Benoit, I agree with everything here. Is Kobashi addicted to painkillers? Is that confirmed? I actually have no idea. I imagine he's at the point where pain can't let him function normally anymore I've been in extreme physical pain before and at the time I never knew if it was possible I would come out of it so I have the greatest sympathy for anyone going through that. However, Kobashi has chosen to keep on wrestling. Not only does he like it, but he obviously loves it and can't get away from it. The pain of any negatives associated it with is obviously not even close to the elation he gets from participating in it. Does that mean he as a person should step away when it would hurt even more to do so? Is it right to deny his happiness? Something to think about. There are a couple points where I'm only partly sure on what smkelly is saying. I think you're saying that if you care about a wrestler than it's hypocritical to keep on cheering for him. A valid point But this does bring up several interesting questions Should a wrestler be forced to step out if he is having too many injury problems but are not a safety hazard to their opponents becasue of it? Drug problems? How are we supposed to judge where the cutoff point is? If someone like Kobashi who is undoubtably still one of the best in the world but hurt badly -- do we stop him from wrestling? Are we as fans supposed to turn our backs on wrestlers like Kobashi or Dynamite once they're broken down if we do care about them? Is that supposed to stop them from wrestling and fix themselves somehow? Is that ethical or unethical? Isn't it in bad taste to throw your noses up at someone as a fan after everything they've done? Wouldn't that hurt the wrestler? When should this turning of our backs take place? Should wrestling be banned? Should we even support it? If it is bad enough where it's to the point that numerous wrestlers undoubtably have to retire due to injuries for our own health than by even supporting "healthy" (there is absolutely no such thing) young wrestlers we are supporting their eventual demise because the roots of destruction are being planted. Which brings me to women's wrestling and the dangers of wrestling pregnant. Another reason for wrestling to be banned. If wrestling should be banned, than do concussion sports like boxing, hockey or MMA get banned next? Some stuff to think about. Resident Evil -- Who thinks there are wrestlers that should not be allowed in the ring.

To the people saying that boxing is MMA or wrestling or whatever -- it's not because boxing is just combat where you "only" use your fists. Combat where you use "everything" is wrestling or MMA. Boxing is different though similar in some aspects. The first line is what I'm saying. If wrestling went legit, it would become MMA. The second line is what I disagree with. It would still be professional wrestling. What would professional wrestling turn into if it weren't fixed? MMA. So how does it suddenly not become professional wrestling? That's what I disagree with. Nobody is saying they're the EXACT same thing. What is being said is that they're the same thing EXCEPT one is an exhibition and the other isn't. Besides the exhibition part, they're very similar and way more similar than the comparison of Wizard of Oz (nice comparison though as I'm familiar with that movie and what happened behind the scenes) to MMA or Law and Order to Police Work. There's a reason why fights on the TV screen aren't generally as compelling as a well done wrestling match. They're way more fiction like and feel more distant without even an attempt to pass if off as somewhat real even if they get how to actually put a fight together. Wrestling is a step closer to its reality form than Wizard of Oz is to MMA or TV cop work to actual police work. Btw, I tend to use Star Trek TOS as a comparison to a well constructed wrestling match. Edit -- Just for the record, Wizard of OZ to MMA is closer than Tv cops are to Police Work.

Thoughts on Kobashi I don't know where I'm going with this at all but I felt it warrented a thread. Kenta Kobashi is back from cancer. I'm happy for him on two accounts. That he was able to get by the cancer and that he was able to wrestle again. In reality, he shouldn't be wrestling anymore because of injuries but it's obvious this is what makes him happy so I guess in reality he actually should be continuing to wrestle. That's quite a sentence. Everyone tearing up at the announce booth was a strong indication of how much this meant not only to them but to Kobashi as well. Kobashi looked pretty good in the ring. He didn't have much body fat at all and was hosting a muscular physique. Perhaps being away from the ring actually helped in that regard as it would've let some injuries heal. He can still move well enough but you can tell the injuries are still there. The match itself should be checked out (youtube) and was highlighted by a Kobashi moonsault on those poor knees. I also felt it was highlighted by Kobashi's excellent body language and interaction with the crowd. Everyone who watched it found to be an emotional bout. It's been around 8 yrs now since Kobashi was in extremely rough shape and had to have those surgeries. At that time he had an incredible run. Although he is not the same physically as he used to be since the new century, I find I've enjoyed a lot of his matches since than. I am a humongous fan of the match he had against Mike Awesome, thet bout against Marafuji and the Misawa 03 bout which I feel is their best match together besides 1/20/97. Than there that was incredible tag from 11/05 which is arguably the best tag of the decade so far. The heart is still there and to me as a hardcore wrestling fan I feel that Kobashi has had a match resume that is getting pretty untouchable. I've also enjoyed his crowd interaction and body language which is ahead of pretty much anyone. He looks like he belongs in there. This became really evident to me in the Joe match from ROH when I saw Kobashi in a different element. Random thought -- One of my favourites memories from Kobashi is video highlights of him training for the 1/20/97 match. In it, he was on his side and he had someone stand on the side of his head. Kobashi than impressively proceeded to move his neck up and down working the side neck muscle. This is actually the most neglected body part in overall fitness training by a long,long shot. Good luck Kobashi. That fighting spirit never quits. With cancer or wrestling.

I think we need a Kenta Kobashi thread. We haven't even had a mention here of Kobashi coming back from cancer which I think is just wrong. How much of a legend is Kobashi going to become?

Ummm....what is this responding to? The post right before mine. Of course HBK still does painkillers and steroids. I guess that's my point. I think TomK's point wasn't that he was on "a little" painkillers and steroids. He compared him to Gino Hernandez. That's not "a little" bit of drugs...and incidentally, it did kill Gino. And I'm still not sure what the "money mark" thing was about. I don't think that was the connection TomK was trying to draw between Michaels and Violent J. Also seems to me that taking comical amounts of drugs to blunt pain isn't exactly tough. I realize "tough" and "crazy" often go hand in hand, but let's not think they're the same thing. Let's see a wrestler work a full major league schedule completely clean. That would be "tough". Still would be crazy, probably even more so. But that would be tough. Bob Backlund. Michaels is legit super tough. I don't care to go back and watch that Michaels/HHH match because I didn't like it too much. And I think it's impossible to actually assess the pain level he was going through in that match anyway. In defense of the match, I want to say I do realise it is a true thumbs up match because I've seen how it affected people watching it.

Well, I don't watch "Law and Order" but I assume it's a police show. So if that's true than yes, your statement is correct though it's not an exact parallel to wrestling compared to MMA. Law and Order to Police Work is much further apart than Wrestling is to MMA. Much further which I believe is partly the point of your statement. To show a somewhat "similar" comparison to a drastic difference of police work to TV Show and make the person reading it think the point I made is offbase. However, it's not that simple. This is an example of how they're similar actually. The 3 count is way different than a 1 count in amateur wrestling. The main reason there is a 3 count in professional wrestling is to create excitement, intrigue and possiblities etc that you can't do with a 1 count. MMA has also done something similar in the past. You have seen matches where fighters have to stand up after being up on the ground for too or even how they take breaks at the end of a round. The reasons for this is that it presumably makes a match more exciting. The one thing it doesn't tell me is that who TRULY is the best fighter. They are sacrificing what is supposed to be the main point of MMA (who is the best fighter?) for entertainment value. The same thing wrestling does with a 3 count. They are using exhibition techniqes to draw people in just like wrestling does. No, once again it's not that simple and the compairson isn't accurate. And I as a professional wrestling look forward to seeing powerbombs, triangle chokes, armbars, takedowns, suplexes, kicks and so on. Like I said either, they both alter their matches to draw people in. MMA wil also book matches if it draws in the crowd. They both use bad guys and good guys. Personalities to draw people in moreso than most other sports. The goal of the participants is the same. To become the best and become champion. Even in the exhibition world, this is top priority and achievable to a degree.l The goal of the organizations are the same. To make money by selling the product to the crowd. They both use highly motivated, tough, well conditioned. similar mindset and competitive individuals. They both get hurt. They are both violent activities which appeal to a lot of the same emotions in the viewer. This is partly where a TV comparison falls apart. Pro Wrestling is not totally fake. They have a storied history together MMA is often seen as the real version of professional wrestling by people. It is what would happen to professional wrestling if it did decide to go legit someday. Professional wrestling became the way it is partly due to the preformers not believing that real professional wrestling would be exciting enough for the fans. It has morphed into different formats since than. There is a big difference between Memhis, Pancrase and UWFI for example. But the links and roots - I assume people here know them -- with MMA and wrestling in Japan or even other places are just too strong for me to ignore. But in conclusion. Wrestling is in essence an anything goes contest where you can pretty much do anything you want comat style. Even punching which is supposed to be illegal is commonly forgotten about. So you have an activity that allows you do what you want -- kicking/punching/wrestling/etc, has contact harsh enough to draw in millions of people, is displaying a common goal of combatants wanting to be the best/have the championship belt, uses the advantage of exhibiton/booking to draw people in to make money, has bad/good guys personalities, ring announcers, ring music, conditoned/determined preformers and so. The other activitity that has the exact same thing. The question becomes, "What would happen to professional wrestling if it left its fake roots and became legit?" It would become MMA. Therefore, MMA is professional wrestling except one has the difference of one being a total exhibition while the other is the real thing who only partially uses exhibition which I believe is what my original statement was. I sense that after some people had a backlash of "comical, comedy" wrestling where people decided to gravitate towards more legit stuff like Japan that there is now somewhat of anti backlash to that by some people. People are thinking now that making wrestling look too real is counter productive to their version of what wrestling should be. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Just an observation. Hence, some of the anti MMA is the real version of pro wrestling backlash. But when you're looking at UWFI, RINGS, Pancrase if you consider it professional wrestling and All Japan than the differences are really not that different. Even other wrestling leagues. They're all on the same ladder. It's just that they're on different rungs.

I consider MMA wrestling. Certainly, it's not the exact same but how is it so different? MMA is just a real version of professional wrestling. Professional wrestling is the exhibition.

I was just making a point that wrestlers are tough. They can be hurting and you just won't know it or should I say the extent of it. Kobashi is a lot more hurt than what he shows for instance. Everyone of us has been surprised at one time or another when a wrestler lists off all his true injuries. They're just tough dudes who mask it. It doesn't mean that they're fine just because you might not see it right off the bat. It's also that heart that leads them to taking drugs to preform if need be.

Well. part of it would be that Michaels despite having the image of a pretty boy is one seriously tough dude. Let's not forget that he is a professional wrestler who has and from what I hear still does put a lot of heart into his craft. He is one of the people who are dedicated and can go past the pain barrier. I severely doubt he's suddenly fine though perhaps feeling better in 2002 than he was when he got injured.

That's good to hear and it doesn't surprise me. Jericho does know his way around the wrestling ring and has always been underrated in that department I feel.

Even if Benoit suffered concussions under WWE's watch, you then have to make a leap to say that Benoit committed the murders due to the concussions. Boxers and other athletes suffer concussions as well, not many of them slaughter their families. That's why this case is a non-starter for me. Brain damage slows your thought processes and at worst leaves you in a vegetative state (well, short of death). I've never heard of another case of murder/suicide because a person was hit on the head one too many times. There were the football players that went insane after suffering concussions and they weren't as bad off as Benoit. I look at Mike Awesome and I know there are other factors involved but I don't doubt for a second that he had brain damage which helped cause him to do what he did. The brain is extremely complicated and it controls what we do. If it's altered, than it changes what we do.

I imagine boxing people are pretty scared of MMA. In general culture and in thought processes, boxing was the main combat choice and considered the superior one. What else did boxing have up against it in years past? Sumo Wrestling was in Japan, hardly anyone knew about amatuer wrestling. The only other form of combat people talked about was karate. Than there was fake professional wrestling as the other big form of combat known out there. But that was fake and nothing about it could ever be true. Now skilled wrestlers wether they were professional or not have proven that they can beat boxers. Even people who use their fists might take someone down before finishing them off which is different than boxing. I think there could be some bad feelings/resentment about that. Different forms of combat have proven that boxing is not the be all and end all of combat and the common person out there is catching on to this. Boxing as well as for other reasons has lost appeal thanks to this.