Resident Evil

There are the Sabu matches and than there's the other excellent Benoit vs Snow match which is a clinic on how to wrestle. I remember PWI calling Al Snow wrestling's best kept secret or something along those lines. That's what interested me in seeing his matches.

Pro Wrestling (not talking about shootish versions here though the logic of increased emotion applies there too) is closer to reality. They even used to and still do try to present themselves as reality to a degree. When somebody hits on a shoulderblock for example there's impact. Somebody put effort into hitting somebody, somebody got hurt falling down and than that somebody got up and kept on going. Its all done in one live take before our very eyes unlike a movie. This is partly what hooks people. Reality is present to a degree. Bruce Hart said it pretty well one time. A fan might go that was fake and well that was half fake but man I don't know about that. That looked pretty real. Boom! You've hooked them. That element of reality sucks you in and because of the stronger reality you have than in total genres of fiction like movies or a comic book or a novel you will find the emotions become stronger as well. You feel more emotionally involved when someone gets hit and gets back up or when someone takes a risk to win a match or when someone is submission or bleeding but yet won't give up and so on. For example, Bret vs Austin isn't one fifth of the matchup it is if it were to take place in a book or on a movie screen. But even in total fiction movie land you will see what I will call here the "pro wrestling reality effect" at play. Jackie Chan is a great example of this. Jackie is famous for doing his own incredible stunts and has recieved numerous accolades/trememdous praise for it. His movies have more of a real feel to them than the "total" kayfabe stunts of other action movies. By reading comments or listening to people talk about him, you will easily see how this increases people's emotions whle watching his movies.

But pro wrestling the way you're thinking about it is not a total genre of fiction. It has some elements of reality to it which are signifigantly responsible for bringing in the fanbase. It's only part fiction. Total genre of fiction would be an animated fight on a TV screen. There's a difference. And who are we to not classify something as pro wrestling just because it's different than let's say the WWE? Who said that pro wrestling can only mean worked matches? I don't think it does. I don't think anyone can justifiably argue that Pancrase wasn't pro wrestling and what's the difference between Pancrase and MMA? It's all pro wrestling just in different shapes and forms and mutations.

This statement is genius! I hope you don't mind if I steal it for a sig, giving you credit of course. . . Hmm, I'm tempted to use it as well.

My issue is, doesn't that description fit countless other wrestlers? What made Benoit different? The only unusual points with him seem to be the strange nature of his career (little workrate guy who became world champion) and the coincedence of several of his close friends dying over a relatively short period of time. Aside from that, what you wrote there perfectly describes God knows how many wrestlers who grew up being weirdo wrestling superfans. Well, the brain damage plays a big role in this. I imagine there aren't too many brains more scrambled than Benoit's brain was. It was obvious he was getting worse than he used to be. I want to hear about the childhood cases of iosolation. Is this a case of some shyness exaggerated or was this something to be worried about? He seemed to have friends from what I've heard.

Well yeah, wrestling is screwed up. I knew that for years. Probably since I started watching.

Then have RVD or whoever teach people how to stretch. Something needs to be done because this is an area where North American wrestlers are lacking and it's hurting them in the ring.

I don't agree with what some of the things the dojos do (than again I don't know what's true or not) but I do know the end result is seemingly a wrestler better prepared for the ring. In particular, the way they stretch their trainees out which give them better flexibility. You will see on average the Japanese wrestlers all being more flexible. It's absolutely one of the most brutal things ever but it definitely helps them once they're in the ring.

Oh man, this thread is even go to get more fun because Kawada has his fan base who defend his strikes as harmless. I don't think the line "If you prefer watching wrestling where people are actually getting hit full force in the face, I think you should just watch MMA" always makes sense. Maybe some people who watch wrestling like hard hitting violence and prefer or like a lot the emotion manipulationg action inside a wrestling ring? Are they any more wrong for liking contact fighting in wrestling than the MMA/Boxing/Hockey/Kickboxing fan who likes thier violent fighting action? If those guys can have it, than why not pro wrestling? I think some people (not saying you CodySave) seem to be having trouble accepting the fact that they like violence and that wrestling no matter how you do it is always violent. It'd be interesting to see their take on hockey fights.

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately. Lay off the insults guys. There's no need for that. OJ's a good guy and he doesn't deserve that crap. If you sleaze junkies want to argue nonsensically while drinking your sleaze kool aid than do so as that's perfectly fine but no reason for the FU nonsense/mental help lines. OJ is making more sense overall than you and Bix. At least he doesn't have to look down at everyone and everything out there in some kind of futile attempt to feel superior.

JDW and Jingus echo a lot of my thoughts. Good work guys.

Which is an utterly insane and completely selfish mindset. I've never understood the idea of Sold Out. If you like these people, you want them to succeed, right? And you do realize that most niche indy art cannot succeed in the mainstream? So in order to get paid, they're almost by definition going to have to alter what they do in some way? I've always hated the creepy obsessive types who would rather have their favorite artists starving or working a day job just as long as they keep making their art in the specific way that they like. Lili Taylor was way better in indy films than she was in The Haunting, but the fact that she did that piece of crap and probably bought a house from it doesn't erase all the earlier stuff she'd already done. It's the same in wrestling with the ECW/ROH mentality, they'd rather have their favorite workers killing themselves in little shitty armories and not being able to pay their bills. Yes, exactly what I am saying! Listen to the pops Danielson gets on 6th Anniversary Show when he talks about how he and others have wrestled through injuries and pain just so they can work for ROH fans and what a pussy Nigel is for not wanting to have his head broken. (I know it was probably mostly a work, but the point remains.) Danielson says something about how he never took those big contracts he was offered because he'd rather stay here with these fans and earn the respect of real people. I call bullsh**. It's one of several options: 1. He was never offered a contract by WWE or TNA -- seems unlikely that at least TNA wouldn't call him for their X-Division. 2. He was offered a contract but turned it down because he likes being the biggest fish in a little pond. Or maybe he truly believes he is being true to his art by not going there. In which case, he's an idiot. The fans have such little respect for him that they cheer when he makes these comments. Just like they cheered Dreamer in the 90's. Watching that promo yesterday, which was actually pretty good from an audience standpoint, was the last straw for me and ROH. I began to really think about what it meant instead of just getting caught up in the emotion. It perfectly underscored exactly what we've been talking about concerning the sleaziness of the business in regards to throwing away wrestler's lives. No porn starlet would say, "Hey, I was offered big contracts by Vivid and Wicked to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Besides the money, the conditions are better and the oportunity exists for my work to be seen by many, many more people. But I turned it down because I felt that working on bangbus.com was truer to my art. I wouldn't want to lose the respect of those fans." It's all about what makes Danielson happy. You're projecting on to him what you think he should do. If he's happier in the indies so be it. If he's happier in NOAH than so be it. If he's happier in the WWE or in Italy than so be it. I'm the biggest critic eveer of ROH fans (I took a ton of heat in the past because I was one of the first to start critizing ROH fans) but what are they supposed to do with Danielson makes those comments? Boo? They're cheering for what he tells them make him happy. They're respecting his happiness. There's nothing wrong with that. And yeah, anyone who turns against someone once they "sell out" is usually wrong. I hate that too.

Some of the exercise stuff I've heard from there I can relate to and can verify how crazy it is. That is vicious. I hope people had the option of leaving whenever they wanted and prir knowledge of what could possibly happen. Personally, I'd be okay with the concept of being punched if I were to try for this. But it would have to be voluntary with prior knowledge. Does it cross the line of sanity? Yes. Is it necessary? I don't think so even if it does weed out the toughest people. Do I condone it? No. Would I have that done to me? I don't think so because I think the health consequences would be too great. I'm not okay with the bannana thing. I hate it. I don't even know why someone would to do that to someone else. Lyger doing that was probably expected even if it was random Urinating on the back is just completely wrong even if Moore were to "voluntarily agree" to it. This wasn't the article I read a few months ago but the dojos in Japan are ruthless. The article I read went into more detail on what happenend to the sumo trainee. This isn't pro wrestling but it is sumo wrestling and a glimpse of what dojos can be like. I'm not sure if Takashi Saito is the person I previously read about dieing or if it's a different person. http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:x-z8j5...;cd=4&gl=ca

So how rough was the New Japan dojo? What was it like compared to sumo?

*This reminds me that Jason Sensation was talking in an interview about being forced to do something with a high ranking WWF official while someone stood watch as a bodyguard or somthing like that. The only reason he got out of it was because someone else came and that allowed him to get out of the situation. I don't know who it was with. *Might be inaccurate since my memory sucks

Personally, I don't have trouble accepting that so and so might have possibly done something wrong. I've lived life for awhile and have learnt that you can't be surprised by anything. I myself have gotten involved in a nasty dispute over a family member being a supplier of stuff he shouldn't have to another family member. It's true that some people do have trouble accepting stuff they don't want to though. Family members have trouble not being biased when it comes to family members. I've also learned that what looks to be at first glance to be obvious is often not. Things can be complicated. As far as thinking of a wrestler as a role model, personality is one thing which is up to each individual to decide but if you're looking just for someone who is a role model for work ethic than you can find it in wrestling. The reason being that the job requires a ton of it.

Can you elaborate on what you're saying here please? Who are the people that should read this book? Why should these people read the book? Why do you think some of these people that should read the book will not do so? Why so angry at them if they don't do so? How was Benoit killing his family supposed to change these people? What are these people now supposed to change to? How could this book possibly help change them? For me, the book sounds interesting but as with other books I won't be able to afford it. The DVDVR thread though is sad because of some of the people there who are obsessed with anything negative. I've seen some of these posters make blatant, nonsensical jumps in "logical assumption" and even present them as facts just to prove to themselves that the world is 100% corrupt. For example, if someone saw Dean Malenko give a sad face to a baby they would than assume Malenko kills babies and than present it as fact. They also have a problem of believing things are more evil than they are. People who rip tags off mattresses are EVIL. So it's hard to take anything they say seriously when it comes to anything that discusses something in a negative sense. Sleaze junkies is a good word for it. They should start their own Jerry Springer type talke show. It's hilarious how they're so quick and gullible to believe anything negative. They're complete marks for that. If one of those people reads this, they'll probably say something stupid like ?You Think DA wrestlers are good people cuzz DEY good wrestlers in ring when really they suxx cause they have EVIIIL hearts in real life". Since not only do they believe all wrestlers are dumb and evil but they think (or I should say want to think) all people are too except for those that look down at people along with them. It's a weird world. Anyway, I look at things objectively and call a spade a spade.

Very true. More random thoughts Today I was thinking about how the audience picks up on the stories or a wrestler's intentions in the ring. Since I've seen and read a lot of people's different opinions on stuff it's become apparent that some people pick up on stuff and some don't. What is obvious for one person or even the majority may not be obvious for another or a signifgant minority. Also, a story will hit harder for one person than the other. I would also think that from the wrestler's perspective that it can be difficult to protray exactly what they want to at times. When you're in the match you know what's going on and what you're trying to do. It can be difficult to educate the fans on that. I've read that there've been times where the fans got something from a match that a wrestler never intended to do or what fans think a wrestler never intended to do. Some people will look down at a match for this. This doesn't matter me though. The outcome is the outcome no matter what the intentions were. Body language is so important. This has to be discussed more. The best actors make the stories all the better.

I don't like babyfaces using chokeholds if I'm supposed to cheer for them. That's a move for a heel.

This is a good, interesting post. A lot of truth written here. I want to talk about the Angle pop up belly to belly suplex. It works and it doesn't work for some people. If it's used at the beginning of the match, I think everyone would be fine with it with perhaps the only complaint being it's giving away a high end move too early on. Now the problem for some people comes when it's hit later on in a match as the nature of the move causes someone to "no sell", get up and run up the ropes for a belly to belly suplex. It's exciting, a great visual and makes Angle look awesome. His opponent looks tough too if he survives it. Both guys look great. However, some people don't buy into it.They don't think it's possible for someone to do that in the match. They don't buy into what's going on. Others can though and believe what's going on in the ring. They can buy into it. They buy into Angle being tough, still hurt but fighitng it out!, the fun action and get more behind him because of the superhuman feat he just accomplished. They don't really think of it as no selling (I tend to think this way too) For them it works wonders since they can buy into everything i since they're not thinking of what others think "someone shouldn't be able to do" and are accepting what happened in front of them. The second scenario you write for the pop up (well not popup anymore!) belly to belly suplex would probably work for more people (as those people who didn't like the pop up version will buy into this) though some of the fans of the pop up version might miss that version. But yeah, building anticipation is pretty much always a cool thing. It's all about tinkering with people's emotions. The best way to do it is a never ending debate.

This is not what I'm saying. I'm not saying any promotion focuses on all their individual wrestlers having Raven like problems as a marketing tool which is what you seem to want to think or to believe. I'm talking more about what at the very core drives a wrestler to wrestle. They wrestle for themselves. Bret sums it up exceptionally well here with one of my fav most truthful quotes of all time . http://youtube.com/watch?v=MLso1dU0LDY Aren't you guilty of this? Too much to talk about here. First off, I assume you think all those moves are silly as they're examples of how people got by without using great moves. Well, I kind of like the leg drop, the crossface chickenwing is awesome and beliebable, elbows are terrific, slams can be great, scorpion deathlock is an excellent move, stunner is ok. So a lot of those aren't good to use a point there. The elbow drop is a clear cut comedy move used in dramatic situations and the fireman's takedown has backlash against it to the point where it turns people off the product despite all the marketing hype behind it. Moves don't make a wrestler complete. Of course not, but they help an awful lot and they're a big part of what wrestling is. That Dynamite Kid guy did okay for himself. You're downplaying the importance of moves in wrestling. If we just wanted charisma we'd be watching something else or hanging out with a charsmatic friend. Is charisma important?? Yeah you better believe it is as it's all important but there's a reason people watch wrestling. It's to you know -- watch some wrestling in a well constructed format that manipulates our emotions. Moves are a signifigant part of the equation. And here I am trying to get you to realize that there is middle ground. Track, hockey and boxing fans want more intense drama too. Wrestling fans want more drama too. Everyone likes drama unless they just want to rest or somthing. What's your point there? Wrestling is different than movies and it's different than sport. It's kind of its own thing. Anyway, hardcore action in wrestling just like in other sports is where the foundation of what everything else has to come from. So I don't see where else you're going to get the intense drama at because it all has to come as result of the sporting like action. Unless we just watch invisible WWE backstage cameras all day long. Maybe they'll have debates over what type of pop is best. That'd be fun. I'm using an extreme example here to make a point. I was just thinking of the times I've helped to give birth before. Now you're saying I said we like to preform surgery because we like gore. You're also saying I said we witness childbirth because of the gore. Well, I wouldn't say I really said that but there is actualy truth to it. Ok, for stuff like surgery, open wouds, gore, childbirth or other extreme situations out of the the ordinary. People have reactions to this. They have biiiig reactions to this and it has to be this way. If there was no big reaction to stuff like this, than how could a woman get help if she was having trouble delievering? How could someone have surgery preformed on them? Nobody would care if there was no reaction. The child or the person who needs medical help could die if nobody aissists them. There is a very high interest levels from humans for extreme situations like this. Like is a tricky word. Can you call that high interest level "like"? I think you can call it both "like" and "dislike" to be honost. It depends on the person. But there's no doubt that some people like that interest level. If they didn't, than we'd have less surgeons. While I'm talking here, I may as well take some more. Sometimes people like these high interest situations too much imo. There are actually a lot of people who like gore. Maybe you live in the city so you don't realize this. I live in a rural community. A lot of guys like gore. They like killing. Myself, I don't. I'm actually a vegetarian. But yeah, when someone like Sayama does something extreme like a space flying tiger drop back in the day it gets the same kind of heightened reaction that other extreme situations do just obviously on a much smaller scale. And now to finish. You of all people shouldn't be talking about gimmick poster stuff as you yourself can come off as one at times. I remember you backpedalling in one thread on this board, you getting caught on DVDVR in one thread or your Vince Wrestlemania haircut thoughts. A lot of your wrestling opinions are way out there compared to the average folk and can be very easily thought of as gimmick or trolling stuff. Some of your statements here to me feel like trolling. Not that I feel there's anything wrong with those opinions as I was the one who invited you elsewhere. It's just that you don't have any legs to walk on if you're going to bring out the gimmick card.

The entire premise of professional wrestling as a genre of fiction is that a large assortment of people compete in an organized combat sport for fame, fortune, personal pride, and presumably, fun. A number of these characters are portrayed as uneasy or unsatisfied with themselves, because everyone is uneasy and unsatisfied with themselves to some degree. No professional wrestling show in the history of the world has ever made this it's focus. How you came to this conclusion is a mystery to me. Is it a tool that they have at their disposal that they use from time to time? Certainly. Has it ever been the foundation of the show? No. Never. Not even in Japan. ---- See, this is what annoys me. I like you but you misinterpet everything. I'm not saying there are promotions that are promoting with the words "This is you against you" Although now that I think about it , there actually have been a couple who promoted with different words basically saying the same thing. But that's not the point anyway. Why do you think people wrestle? It's to clinch the thirst of the you vs you battle. Things are derived from that. Listen to the song "Burning Heart" from Rocky IV. It explains it as clear as day. " Warrior's code there's no surrender. Knows it's you against you. It's the paradox that drives us all". That's what wrestling represents to me. To you too, I think it's what it represents as well. You're all justifiably about the hero overcoming the odds to stand triumphant at the end. To do that, he has to conquer himself more than his opponent. That's why I watch wrestling. For struggle that is within everyone, the villan included. It's the only answer you're giving me. It's the one you drew a direct correlation to match quality with. It seems to be the answer you feel strongest about. -- Match quality is dependent on a ton of things. There are a lot of ingredients that go into a recipe. Believability is essential. You got to make the fans buy into it. Hulk Hogan is the most popular wrestler ever, so, yeah, there is. It's actually really apparent, and has been bemoaned by workrate fans for years. If you really can't see it, I'm inclined to question your sanity. ---- Hogan's one of the most popular ever but how does that get away from the fact that people like and want dragon suplexes, powerbombs, superplexes and so on? People just don't want to see guys thumb wrestling. People like more speed in track, intense drama in movies, intense action in hockey, harder hitters in boxing and they want more hardcore action in wrestling. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just the way it is. Just because one wrestler didn't do a shooting star press and was super popular doesn't mean the fans don't want some superior action in their matches. I don't necessarily dislike it, but I certainly wouldn't say I need it. The simple fact that there are people who aren't wrestling fans at all, and people who don't like to watch violence - even of the simulated variety - shoots down the notion that it's part of human nature. And I don't exactly have a high opinion of humans, but we're not that low. --- There's a part of us as wrestling fans and humans that gets more intrigued when we see for example Sayama do a space flying tiger drop or someone else does something insane. We can't help it. It's the same concept (but on a different scale) as say the reaction people have to blood or doing surgery or helping giving birth. Some people don't like helping to give birth or stitching someone up. Some can but the point is intrigue and interest has to be present otherwise nobody would care about the situation and someone could have trouble giving birth or they could die if they're not given help. The strong reactions that are necessary can backfire at times but it can't be any other way. Matches that have similar match structures but the ones that feature bigger moves done properly will always be the better match in the fans eyes.[/q No, they'll be the better matches in YOUR eyes. I'm sure some of them will be better matches in other fans' eyes, too. Some might even be better in the eyes of the majority of fans. But as a whole, they will be the better matches in YOUR eyes. I won't deny you your opinion. I'd hope you wouldn't deny me my reality. ..... Good matches tend to build and build to a climax. Better moves in a similar blueprint structure allow emotions to be higher and the climax to be greater thus giving you a better match. A match can't exist without moves. As a bare minimum answer here -- If you have two matches that are basically the same but one ends with a superplex off the middle rope while the other ends with a superplex off the top rope than people are going to pick the match with the top rope superplex as better. Why wouldn't they?

I'll get back to ya but I have to play poker for awhile. I'm not too enthusiastic about you misinterpeting some of what I said. Perhaps some of it was my fault due as I was just writing random thoughts at the time. Fancy wasn't a good word to use there. Edit -- Too much poker. I'll be playing for a long time. Jingus gets it. Ok, I'm in a rush "I disagree. While self-conflict is present in some degree in pretty much every dramatic story ever, it's not always the focus, it's not often the main focus of a genre based around a combat sport, and it's almost never the main focus of said genre to the exception of a conflict between two people. "Fighting spirit" is an aspect of wrestling storytelling. It's not the entirety of it." ----------- It's the basis of it. The foundation of the house. Your own personal fighting spirit is why you fight. To solve the conflict inside you by fighting against others. If one wasn't uneasy and satistified with themselves than they they wouldn't fight. .............. "Bullshit. Dusty Rhodes had fighting spirit - as you define it - coming out the wazoo. Where were his fancy spots? Where was his innovation? Where is the direct correlation between "fighting spirit" and fancy moves? Is it not possible that there are other effective ways to convey that, as Dusty found?" Who said there's only one way to show fighting spirit???? Innovation or some hard to pull off devestating move or a well thought out sequence/spot/strategy in a match is a way to show intelligence which is a show of fighting spirit by demonstrating how hard someone is working mentally. It is a way to show fighting spirit just like there are other ways. ...................................... "Again, it's one tool they can use. It's not the only tool they can use. Where is the direct correlation between increased match quality and increased fancy moves?" Take what I believe to a classic match -- Kobashi vs Marafuji. Or take a million of the great classics from Japan that have sound or better match structure. We all know they're filled with great fancy moves that weren't found elsewhere. You can follow the match structure and dumb it down with lesser offense and the result will be a lesser match in 99.9% of the fans eyes. All things being equal, a match with higher end offense is usually better. ................................................... "You're certainly within your right to feel however you want to feel about the standard tag match formula. Just be aware that you're one of a select few who feel that way. I'm not saying that should be the only way to run tag matches, mind you, but it's compelling for 99.9% of wrestling fandom, and to subvert it for the sake of subverting it is pointless. That WCW match didn't give credibility to anything. By wrestling standards, the standard tag formula has always been credible to the vast majority of fans. It didn't need a minor bout averting one of it's standard tropes to prove anything. And I would assume it was a minor match, because to do it in a higher profile match would come off as anticlimactic to most everyone walking the Earth, unless they liked seeing tropes averted for the hell of it. Then again, it was WCW, so who knows with them. I guess on a lower level, it could actually be seen as funny, like a parody of the face-in-peril section. But it seems like the nature of it would make it funnier in concept than in practice, and I'm not exactly laughing my head off right now. But my point here is that you should understand that most of the world doesn't think about these things the way you do, and while you're allowed to disagree with the majority, you should at least understand where they're coming from, and that they aren't and shouldn't drastically change the world to cater to you." .................. I think it's way more than a select few who think that way. We've seen complaints all the time about this over the top predicability thing in wrestling. This is one of the biggest problems in the WWE right now. People get tired of the same old, same old even if it's apple pie. Apple pie eaten every day 5 tmes a day will make you sick of it no matter how good that pie is. You have to divert from it. It's human nature and it applies to a lot of things in life. But when you do get away from that apple pie for awhile and than eat it a few months later you will love it. Probably even more so than before. Same thing with tag team wrestling. I got sick in 2 months of the sterotypical formula. I know others who have too. Take that formula away some and come back to it later and it will work way better. Make people appreciate it. Make peope want it and not take it for granted. Make it more believable bynot having it happen all the time. Think about the people who complain about ROH and how all the matches have to be classics. People get tired of it. Take away all the classic attempts and attempt a classic only now and than and people will dig it. It's the same concept. Don't you even think this way? In life, a ot of things work the same way. This is actually a tired and true formula and is what should be applied to wrestling. How much is a debate that is open to well debate. The WCW match was an example of how happy Iwas to see something different. WOrked correctly, this could be used to make an upcoming match more dramatic by making the fans think that hot tag may just not actualy be made. ................................................ "They didn't use our standard tag formula too much, but they had formulas of their own. Just because something didn't fit into one formula doesn't mean it wasn't part of another. You mentioned getting into anime because it was different and innovative, but does anime not have it's own formulas, tropes, and cliches?" Of course. I completely agree and this is one of my points. The WWF could learn some stuff from them. I got inot anime because it was different and innovative. Yes, I was actually into it before I knew the term anime. I'd think back and realise it was the Japan shows that really appealed to me. Of course it has its formulas. I wouldn't have it any other way. But they did a lot of stuff I didn't see in North America. It was kind of like the difference betwenn Japan and North American wrestling in some ways. People could die. Anything could happen. Imagination knew no bounds. BUT YET, they still how to tell a story or a formula if you may. They still knew how to suck people in through storytelling. This led to increased interest/emotion. If you were to compare it to wrestling it'd be like a well constructed match but a match where you don't know if x,y or z is going to happen so if x, y, z does happen it means so much more. ....................................................... Every work of fiction has to make you "believe" on a certain level. Wrestling isn't any more or less different in that regard than any other genre, except that wrestlers seem more self-conscious about it than other artists, and that's not a good thing. Suggesting that big moves are the only answer is the kind of self-destructive line of thought that I was talking about before, and you should know that as well as anyone, WildPegasus. ..................................................... Who's suggesting big moves are the only answer to wrestling's problems? Big moves used in the right context (say for example the highflying in Bret vs Hakushi from Raw) add to the match. A crossbody over the top rope doesn't work as well there. It is sef destructive to want big moves in wrestling but there is no getting away from the notion that people want it. They help matches and everybody wether they deny it or not wants it because it's human nature. Matches that have similar match structures but the ones that feature bigger moves done properly will always be the better match in the fans eyes.

Random thoughts time The Japanese summed it up best with two words Fighting Spirit Wrestling is not so much about one person vs one person but rather yourself against yourself. It's the battle within oneself. The same battle we go through every day. The exact same battle you find yourself in the weight room. A battle someone can find themselves in if they're scared to go up a ladder but they have to do so to save a cat. Pushing yourself beyond the limits to achieve something. You against you. I hear some talk about how people they don't like the same old, same old wether it's a ton of spots or a structure "that works". The reason fancy spots or moves or innovation works is because they show the fighitng spirit of the wrestler. It's shows strength both physically and mentally that's superior to an opponent. In a match structure that's basically the same, the match with the fancy spots/moves/innovation will be "better" because of this. The problem with this is that if fancy spots are used too much they can lose meaning and the effect of seeing strenght physically and mentally in the wrestler is nullified some. Believability can becomes less for some wrestlers doing this. Which brings me to the true and tried face in peril structure of wrestling. In singles it's apparent but in tag team wrestling it's worse as you're beat over the head with it constantly. It grows tiresome. It happens every single time!!!! Within 2 months or less of watching this formula I grew tiresome of it. I cheered like mad for anything that deviated from it. For ex, one time the Brainbusters who were the bad guys struggled to get a tag to their partner in a match against Demoliotn. One time in WCW there was a tag match where the face in peril didn't make the hot tag and got pinned!! I marked out like crazy. Why? Because it gave credibility to something that was tired out. When something happens all the time wether it's the movies/TV (one of the reasons why I took to Japanese animation years ago was because it was so different/innovative) or wrestling you don't buy it anymore. It's not believable. When a tag match follows that formula all the time it loses a lot of credibility/a lot of what it's aiming for. You don't feel as much for the faces in peril, you don't care if they make the hot tag as much and so on. That's why you need other tag matches that break that format. Even if those match structures don't happen to be "as good" they have to occur so they can help the main tag team formula. Not just to get the formula more fresh but to make people buy into it more. I watched Furnass/Kroffat in a tag back in 96 when I was just getting into All Japan. It was a totally non face in peril match and it was a good but not great match. However, I looooved it because it was so different and it didn't insult my intelligence by automatically having to used a cliche tag formula. There was still enough of a "fighing spirit" battle to enjoy it. Speaking of All Japan I really think they did a great job of having matches that hit on the fans emotions without having to go to an exaggerated tag cliche formula that you often see in North America. Than when they do go somewhat into a formulat we're used to like in Furnass/Kroffat vs Kobashi/Kikuchi it means so much more. The matches never seemed forced there. They were buyable. Wrestling is part make believe but believability is actually a big part of it. Storytelling in wrestling to be at its strongest has to make the individual person buy into what's going on. How much someone buys into something is different for everyone.

I second the Virgil turn. It's definitely one of top 3 fav turns of all time. I'm also a big fan of the Macho Man's turn at Wrestlemania.