The Thread Killer

Am I the only one who thought the Ziggler/Nakamura match tonight was better than their match at Backlash? I thought Nak looked sharper tonight.

I will openly admit that I used to actually pay for the weekly Pay Per Views, during their entire run for the most part. (In retrospect, I feel terrible about that, as it means I was inadvertently responsible for putting money in Vince Russo's pocket. I feel so dirty, and the dirt won't wash off.) When they stopped doing the weekly PPV shows and switched to Impact, I couldn't watch anymore because we didn't get Fox Sports in Canada. (We still don't, actually.) So that was the end of that, and by the time they got on Spike TV it was a;most 18 months later, by that time I no longer had any real interest in TNA.

I wonder if it's true that the Angle/Graves thing is leading to the return of Triple H? Because if it is...meh/bleh. (Meh being I partially don't care, bleh indicating that of all the people I was hoping to see Angle mix it up with upon his return, Triple H wasn't one of them. And I don't even dislike Triple H, but we've seen him and Angle already.)

I was somewhat surprised to see Enzo and Cass split up so quickly. I always figured they'd get at least a token run with the titles, since they seemed popular and from looking at the crowds, it appeared they were moving a ton of merchandise. I assumed this day was coming, just not so soon. I don't much like Enzo's chances from here on in. I wonder if maybe this was because he really isn't the most popular guy backstage. I read somewhere he rubbed some of the trainers the wrong way in NXT by refusing to listen to advice.

WWE would kill to have a midcarder as versatile and permaover as Disco today, you prick. So this guy shares his opinion about Booker mentioning Disco and gets called a prick for it? That's bullshit. He's entitled to his opinion, and as far as Disco Inferno goes, Glen Gilberti is an egotistical moron, who isn't anywhere near as clever as he thinks he is. You know...like you, you dumb shit.

Shit, you're right. I meant to say Kayfabe Commentaries, I don't even know why I said Highspots. Brainfart.

Current favorite wrestler to watch: I've been really enjoying Neville's run as King of the Cruiserweights, especially his run against Austin Aries, up until the submission match. Also, I think that AJ Styles is pretty much on top of his game right now. If The Revival were active right now, they'd likely be the top of this list. Last fun match you saw: That's probably a tie between Dunne vs. Bate at Takeover: Chicago, and I also really enjoyed the Hardyz vs. Cesaro & Sheamus match from Payback. Wrestler you want to see more of: There are a lot of guys on that list. Luke Harper for sure. I'm also curious about the development of Aleister Black. Last live show attended: The last live show I attended was Ring of Honor: Global Wars 2014. That experience was so horrible that I swore off ever attending live wrestling again. It's not because the show was bad (which it was) but the fans were such smarky dickheads that it totally ruined the experience for me. When NXT announced they were coming to Toronto, and were supposed to be appearing at the Mattamy Athletic Center (which is the old Maple Leaf Gardens) I changed my mind and bought tickets. I was really excited because I wanted to go back to Maple Leaf Gardens where I had seen countless shows over the years, and also I was hoping to see Nakamura live, in a small show environment. (They got rid of most of the seating from the old arena and the new venue is much smaller and more intimate.) Then of course, the tickets sold out in a heartbeat, so they decided to change the show into a Takeover, and move it to the Air Canada Centre. I cancelled my ticket because I didn't want to go to the damn Air Canada Centre, I wanted to go to a smaller show. And now I'll never see Nakamura in a small venue. Damn WWE. Match you're most looking forward to watching: I am looking forward to the Money in the Bank match itself on Sunday, it has potential. I am also looking forward to Joe/Lesnar, I am hoping they don't screw that up. Last fun interview/promo you saw: This may not count, but Jim Cornette's recent back and forth about Russo since the Table for 3 has aired has been highly entertaining - mostly because I hate Russo and it's obvious that Cornette (and Bischoff) are getting to him. Last interesting thing you read about wrestling: I haven't read a good wrestling book in a long time. The last thing I followed closely was Bix's coverage of the end of the Dixie era in TNA. He was right on top of that story as it unfolded. Last worthwhile podcast you listened to: I check out the highlights of Cornette's podcast on YouTube. I could never listen to the whole thing, it would drive me mad. However, I never miss an episode of Killing The Town with Lance Storm and Don "Cyrus" Callis. I love that show, it never fails to entertain. Cyrus cracks me up, he is so damn funny. I listen to Jericho and Edge and Christian's podcasts if I am interested in the guest, but I am hit and miss with them - I never miss Killing the Town. Most fun you've had watching wrestling lately: NXT Takeover: Chicago Favorite recent post on this board: In the "WWE Network...It's Here" thread we had a discussion about the Cornette/Bischoff/Hayes Table for 3, which morphed into a discussion about the merits of Vince Russo and Jim Cornette, and the creative limits of wrestling booking. That was a discussion I quite enjoyed. Favorite thing about the wrestling landscape in the past three months: The fact that Nakamura and Samoa Joe have managed to have any degree of success on the main roster in WWE has been enjoyable to me.

I heard this clip with Jim Cornette discussing the new shoot that Highspots is doing with Savio Vega, where apparently there are never before revealed details about the murder of Bruiser Brody. I may have to check this out...

I'm not sure...maybe. I had tapped out on WWE programming by the time they did the heel Michael Cole angle. He was always a heel to me from the moment he replaced JR, due to the fact that he sucks. In all honesty, I don't even know what they're trying or hoping to achieve with the Borash vs. Mathews angle. Unless the idea is to irritate and alienate the few remaining hardcore fans who were still giving them a chance. In which case, it's working brilliantly.

I'm a little bit excited about the match, but I'm also nervous, because honestly I can count on one hand the legitimately good Brock Lesnar matches that he's been involved with since his return from UFC. I think it boils down to how much Brock really wants to work with Joe. If he wants to, the match could be awesome. If he treats Joe the way he treated Ambrose, then...oh boy.

One of the many things that astounds me about TNA - I'm sorry, I mean IMPACT - right now is this... You have two hours of TV a week. You have a young, and in many cases virtually unknown roster to try and get over. So what do you do? Devote a ridiculous amount of TV time to an absolutely pointless and cringe-worthy storyline involving your two ANNOUNCERS feuding. Do they actually think people are going to tune in to see what comes of the amazing Jeremy Borash vs. Josh Mathews feud? Are they really that dense?

It strikes me that I am coming across as the defender of all things NXT in this thread, or implying that I think that every new hire needs to go there for re-programming or something, and that's not the case. The most obvious example would be AJ Styles who never set foot in NXT, and his WWE career obviously hasn't suffered for it. Now of course, an argument could be made that at the time WWE signed him, AJ Styles was the best active Professional Wrestler in the world, so why the hell would they send him to developmental...but I'm not so sure WWE felt that way about Styles at first. I know they're not that popular around these parts, but Gallows and Anderson would be another example of a team who really didn't need to go to NXT. They haven't set the world on fire on RAW by any stretch, but I don't think a stint in NXT would have made much difference. I was going to speculate that maybe WWE creative thinks people who have spent extended time in NJPW and have worked the big dome shows and done their TV might be better prepared to go straight to the main roster, but the argument against that would be how long they sat on Balor before calling him up.

Interesting perspective. Bobby Roode hails from my neck of the woods, so when NXT came to Toronto, he did a ton of local media. During one of the interviews, they asked him if was insulted that he was sent to NXT rather than straight to the main roster. Roode answered that he was glad he had gone to NXT, because even though he had tons of experience in TNA he was actually shocked at how much of the production and creative aspects of the business he was still unaware of. He used his whole "Glorious" theme as an example. He talked about how the song had originally been done for Nakamura, but Nakamura rejected it. They put the song on the shelf, but when Roode came in they presented it to him. He said that he hated the song at first listen, but once he sat down and discussed how to incorporate the song into his gimmick, with the robes and the exaggerated and incredibly vainglorious ring entrance, he loved it. He talked about how when he gets to the main roster eventually, he will feel like a much more practiced and well developed all around character. Not to mention, he'll probably be over already due to the percentage of crossover fans who watch NXT and the main roster - much like the anticipation for Nakamura was so amped when he finally showed up. The bottom line was that Roode said that his time in NXT so far has been invaluable and he's glad that he didn't debut on the main roster right away. Now of course, he'd have been a total idiot to say otherwise. Even if he was unhappy to go to NXT, he's not going to sit there and say that to some sports talk radio jock in Toronto. But with the way he elaborated and explained how he feels being in NXT has helped him, I actually believe he meant it. I personally think Samoa Joe needed his time in NXT to get back in shape. He had kinda let himself go a bit in TNA. Besides, keep in mind he was originally hired exclusively for NXT and was never intended to go to the main roster. If you believe what he said on Jericho's podcast, they originally hired him to be a cornerstone of NXT when it became it's own touring brand. I found it humorous when he talked about how some guys in NXT consider the money and accommodations to be inferior to what they anticipate they'll be getting on the main roster, when he found it all to be quite luxurious compared to what he was used to both on the indies and in TNA. I really had no issue with how Nakamura was used or presented in NXT. As far as the main roster, I think it's still too soon to say. I thought the Ziggler match wasn't much of a showcase for him, and that Ziggler got way too much on him. I am holding judgement to wait and see how he does at Money in the Bank, and if he wins. If he starts stagnating in the SDL midcard, then we'll know for sure how bad the difference is between NXT and the main roster, creatively. Because say what you want about how Nakamura was used in NXT, but he was always at the top of the card, pretty much from the get go. On the main roster, the jury is still out.

I could not agree with you more. I never saw the big deal with Crews when he got to NXT. His work was bland and unremarkable and he had the infuriating habit of grinning like an idiot 90% of the time. I'll never forget after he was called up, I forget who it was, but somebody attacked him backstage and beat him down, left him lying in a heap. A couple of segments later, out comes Apollo Crews who is not only NOT selling any injuries from the attack, but he's still got the big ass, shit-eating grin plastered across his face. I don't know about you, but if somebody kicked the shit out of me and left me in a heap, I'd likely still be a little put out by it 15 minutes later. I assume somebody in creative on the main roster liked him because of his big muscles. There might be those who say "at least he has big muscles" but I tend to think no...at most he's got big muscles.

I don't think that is a fair or accurate statement. I think after WCW and ECW died, NXT became a necessity. Lets say WWE becomes interested in a guy who is making a big buzz on the independent scene. Just because the guy knows a bunch of moves, and how to get a reaction from the crowd, it doesn't mean he's ready to be on RAW. A lot of those guys have never even been on TV before, they've never had to cut regular promos in front of a camera, or learned how to do any of the logistical things you need to learn to perform on television, knowing how to work to the hard camera, etc. Not to mention, WWE has their own massive list of things performers aren't allowed to do or say. What moves are banned, what phrases and words they can and can't use, and all that nonsense. Newcomers to WWE need to learn that stuff somewhere and they need somewhere to practice working "WWE style" before heading straight to the main roster. Plus, they get practice working a schedule of TV tapings and live events so WWE officials can evaluate them and see how they adapt. Plus, just the mere existence of the Performance Center as part of NXT is such a great way for guys to rehab injuries and get back into "ring shape" so they don't return from long layoffs and end up having to work out the kinks on the main shows. On top of that, NXT is a great place to rehab or reboot workers creatively into a more viable character. Whether you love him or hate him, Windham Rotunda had to go somewhere to undergo the transition from Husky Harris to Bray Wyatt, and NXT gave him that chance. Ditto Tye Dillinger. You can't just write off all of NXT as a Triple H vanity project. I think Vince has made it abundantly clear over the years that he couldn't give less of a shit what so-called "smart marks" think of his product, so I hardly think the purpose of NXT is to exclusively cater to them, either. The real issue with NXT is two-fold. Firstly, the crowd at Full Sail does tend to be a "smarkier" crowd, so just because somebody is popular with them it is not a guarantee of wider success on the main roster. But worse, there is clearly a difference in the creative teams between NXT and the Main Roster. It was obvious from the get-go that the creative team had no serious intention of pushing The Ascension. (And perhaps justifiably so, because I'm not convinced they don't suck.) Same with The Vaudevillians, same with Apollo Crews, same with Tyler Breeze up until about a month ago. I do wonder why they bother calling some of these acts up to the main roster if they already know ahead of time they aren't going to use them for much. But regardless, I really don't see a logical argument for claiming that NXT is not a viable developmental program.

I remember waaayyy back when they used that gimmick to get Cactus Jack over during his initial run in WCW. He'd team with some scrub against an established team, his partner would take the fall, and then after the match he'd go batshit on his partner and give him a beating, which would usually culminate with that wicked elbow drop from the apron to the concrete outside. (You know...the move which was most likely the key reason Mick Foley just needed a hip replaced.) Anyhow, that was what...27 years ago? And I still remember it, without having ever seen footage of it since. Maybe that idea would work on getting Lars over, who knows.

Excellent point, we need to add that to the list. Best example of that I ever saw was in Stampede Wrestling. Bad News Allen permanently crippled the son of Archie "The Stomper" Gouldie and put him out of wrestling forever. It was so convincing, the idiot play-by-play man Ed Whalen got up and walked out of the arena, and helped convince the athletic commission to ban the subsequent Allen/Gouldie blow-off match at the Calgary Pavilion and it almost got them thrown off TV for good. Which is unfortunate because: 1) The kid never really got injured 2) The kid wasn't even really Archie Gouldie's kid...he was just some kid brought in by Bruce Hart for the angle and 3) It got a massive amount of heat and attention and would have drawn huge money for Stampede...if that moron Ed Whalen hadn't help ruin it. They ended up having to do the blow-off on an Indian Reservation and run buses to the show, which a lot of fans wouldn't take. Whalen was in on the angle. It was only later after all the bad press from the post-angle riot that he stepped away. As far as I know he had nothing to do with the promotion being kicked out of the Victoria Pavillion Whalen gave a bunch of interviews to the Calgary media after he quit, complaining about how violent wrestling had become, and that angle in particular. When the guy who is the supposed "voice" of your company goes public and buries it, people are going to listen. A lot of people in Calgary respected Whalen, since he also did play-by-play for the Flames. I've heard that Whalen later told people he knew about it before hand, and that he quit Stampede because his wife was running for a town council position and didn't want the fact that he worked for Stampede to be used against her - so he quit and they worked it into the angle. The problem is, Bruce Hart reportedly told Heath McCoy that Whalen didn't know beforehand, and that he is lying now. The thing is, Bruce Hart is also notoriously full of shit. When it comes to stuff about Stampede, I tend to believe Heath McCoy. In this case, I suppose a case can be made either way. Anyhow, I guess my original point should have been that the angle was awesome, especially for it's time. And also, Ed Whalen was terrible. Not just for constantly burying his own company and no-selling angles during commentary, and stooging during interviews - he was also a horrible announcer. He publicly admitted he didn't even like wrestling or respect it. That's why I always go mental whenever his name comes up. Of course, this time - I'm the one who brought it up.

Excellent point, we need to add that to the list. Best example of that I ever saw was in Stampede Wrestling. Bad News Allen permanently crippled the son of Archie "The Stomper" Gouldie and put him out of wrestling forever. It was so convincing, the idiot play-by-play man Ed Whalen got up and walked out of the arena, and helped convince the athletic commission to ban the subsequent Allen/Gouldie blow-off match at the Calgary Pavilion and it almost got them thrown off TV for good. Which is unfortunate because: 1) The kid never really got injured 2) The kid wasn't even really Archie Gouldie's kid...he was just some kid brought in by Bruce Hart for the angle and 3) It got a massive amount of heat and attention and would have drawn huge money for Stampede...if that moron Ed Whalen hadn't help ruin it. They ended up having to do the blow-off on an Indian Reservation and run buses to the show, which a lot of fans wouldn't take.

You raise a good point. Of all people, I once heard Kevin Nash talk about a conversation that he had with Eric Bischoff regarding the art of booking. Nash claimed that Bischoff's theory (which Nash agreed with) is that there is really only about five different storylines which have ever been successful in the entire history of Pro Wrestling, and every successful angle since they were done first is just a variation on one of those themes. The trick is to do them right. - Partner turns on partner or friend turns on friend (or student on mentor, etc.) - Babyface pursues heel Champion who repeatedly cheats to keep his title - Patriotic angles (USA vs. whatever country is the boogeyman at that time) - Mystery antagonist screws with babyface until finally being revealed - Outsider from other organization or territory "invades." I guess we could now add "Authority figure abuses roster." He wasn't wrong. I think all good wrestling minds usually end up doing variations on those themes, the trick is to steal the right idea and use it at the right time with the right people. Since Cornette knows so much about the history of the business, I think he's had fairly good instincts regarding when to use these well worn ideas.

This statement bears some scrutiny and is open to debate as well. The main reason WCW died is because AOL Time Warner cancelled all WCW programming, true. It is likely that they would have done that regardless of what shape WCW was in when they took it over. However, the argument can be made that it was his inept booking that led to the loss of money and revenue that made those cancellations such an easy sell. All AOL had to do was point to the books, losing money and point to the ratings, flat-lining, and they had every justification for pulling the plug on WCW. If WCW was stable at that point, or still showing a profit, I am guessing it would have been harder to justify, if nothing else. I'm not saying WCW dying is all Russo's fault, but saying he had nothing to do with it is a bit of a stretch, no? As far as TNA goes, you can't really point to the fact that the company hasn't died yet as a ringing endorsement of Russo's skills. But you could blame him (and Dixie) for getting them thrown off Spike TV. You can't point at the shape ROH is in and blame Cornette, and then turn around and say that TNA is still alive, so at least Russo didn't kill it. I'd argue that Russo did a lot more damage to TNA than Cornette did to ROH.

Although they like to hide it or avoid the fact...World Wrestling Entertainment is a Professional Wrestling organization. Whether you like him or don't, you'd have to be a blind fool to not admit that Jim Cornette has an encyclopedic knowledge of the history of the Pro Wrestling business. He also has a clear love and respect for it. He has recently reviewed the recent Dunne/Bate match glowingly, and his love for The Revival is well documented. In other words, Cornette loves Pro Wrestling and can still find some good in it. Based on his history, and things that other people have said about him, I have serious doubts that Vince Russo even truly understands Pro Wrestling. If he does, he obviously doesn't like it very much, at least in it's current form. This is a guy who recently said that if you think a match is "awesome" and you chant that, then it means you're probably a homosexual. Whereas he, (a non-homosexual sports entertainment fan) watches women's wrestling hoping to see a nipple slip. I don't even like Jim Cornette, or at least the persona he portrays in public. He is also close minded and dismissive of others, rude profane and insulting. In that sense, sure...he and Russo are two peas in a pod. Russo's vision of what Pro Wrestling should be, has either come and gone, or it never really came to full fruition. The era of wrestling that Jim Cornette came up in, (and clearly misses) has come and gone. The business has obviously passed him by. So in the sense that neither of them care for the current product as it stands, sure Cornette and Russo have something in common. However the glaring difference between Jim Cornette and Vince Russo is that one loves Pro Wrestling and one does not. That does not make them similar, it makes them dissimilar. And since Pro Wrestling is the main reason that anybody would listen to either of them, in the end that is the only difference that matters.

I strongly disagree with that statement. Vince Russo helped contribute to those ratings and that success, but to say he was responsible seems like a gross overstatement. He certainly thinks he was responsible but I don't know if anybody else does.

That sucks that it all got pulled down. I loved having access to all those house shows from Maple Leaf Gardens. It was a great trip down memory lane, as I was at many of those shows.

I am opposed to Vince Russo being invited back to WWE for talk segments etc. because it legitimizes him and gives him a platform. There would be those who think that simply because he is appearing on the WWE Network, he must be worthy of such an opportunity to be heard, and even worse, some people would listen to what he says. Every time he opens his mouth, ridiculous bullshit comes spewing out - lies, distortions, obvious contradictions, idiotic justifications for indefensible and moronic decisions, perversions of logic and general nonsense. After he stops talking, nobody is ever the better for having listened to him. The man contributes nothing to any discussion. He contributes less then nothing. He contributes negative nothing, which creates a vortex into which an otherwise constructive or entertaining dialogue would be sucked, thereby suffocating it to death. The only way I would ever want to see Vince Russo on any sort of televised broadcast, would be if he was placed on trial for crimes against Professional Wrestling. The prosecutor would be Jim Cornette, Russo's defense attorney would be Disco Inferno, and all wrestling fans would be the jury. And once he was convicted, his sentence would have to be permanent censure and banishment. No more podcasts, no more interviews, no more DVD commentaries, no more books. He would have to go away, and stay gone, for all time, never to be spoken of again, except as a cautionary tale. That is something I would watch.

Thankfully, it appears recently Russo tried to mend that fence and Vince is not having any of it... Credit: WhatCulture.com