anarchistxx

Thanks; so have I been watching the wrong match, or have I just got the wrong date?

ADDED: 1991 - The Steiner Brothers vs. Kensuke Sasaki & Hiroshi Hase (3/21 - Tokyo Dome) (NJPW)

Yeah, I've been feeling like that for a while. But I bought a load of DVD's, and kind of feel obligated to watch them, to justify what now seems a pretty extortionate outlay (£100 70 Discs). At the time I was really into watching wrestling, but I have different priorities with my money now. Yeah, sorry if I gave that impression. I am arrogant sometimes, and feel I'm right most of the time, but I do try and read others opinions and take them on board. It's always more entertaining to disagree and discuss though, and I'm sure if my comments hadn't been ridiculous in the eyes of many, this thread wouldn't have been as popular.

That isn't the case at all. The only time in this thread I've resorted to insults is when you called my reviews 'du,b'. It was you in fact, who labelled my reviews for not being 'smart'. I don't mind constructive criticism, which you eventually gave, and I have no problem being criticized. It's just when people opt for the one liner without giving any real criticisms. These aren't really reviews I've been posting anyway, in this particular thread, they're just thoughts on matches. Again, not true. I've had many long discussions about matches I've reviewed, where people disagree with me. They may be poor reasons in your eyes, but in my eyes they may be things I hold really important when watching a match. Single out a 'poor reason' and I'll explain it further. And if I don't understand what's supposed to be happening, they aren't doing it that well, for me. You may undersand what's happening, and that'll make the match great for you. I see no instance of me 'not understanding what was happening' anyway. I've seen all the Misawa/Kawada matches before 06/03, I knew the storyline going in. I just felt the match had a lot more floors than most people claim. Misawa/Jumbo is clearly better, Hansen/Kobashi is better, Kobashi/Misawa is better, there's a whole host of beter singles matches out there. That isn't because I don't understand the match, I just don't like it as much as some. I don't think that at all. I like reading other people's thoughts on matches, and take them into consideration. But at the end of the day, if I'm writing my thoughts on a match, it has to be my take on it, and I'm not going to lie because other people like it a lot. Oh, definately. But considering I've seen Misawa/Kawada about 4 times and still hold the opinion means I should have picked up by now whatever stuff was under the surface. I got the story behind it, I got what they tried to do, it just didn't evoke any sort of emotional response from me at all. I take the context of my matches into account, but in this case, it didn't affect my opinion. I listen to what others have to say, but at the end of the day, I usually think I'm right; I would, otherwise I wouldn't hold that opinion. I've had my opinions change on many matches as a result of people's write ups. I'm not going to get into the X and Y and rest hold argument because it doesn't interest me. I like discussing particular matches. Maybe my negative thoughts are a result of not enjoying wrestling much anymore. I watch it, and it provides sufficient entertainment for half an hour while I'm having a quick lunch, but I never sit down and have 2 or 3 hour sessions anymore. There are still matches I really dig though, and that keeps me watching. Case of my normal life being busy I think. I'll be having a 1 year absence in June anyway, as I'm taking a gap year and won't get chance to watch any wrestling, so hopefully when I get back I'll be more into it again. Or I might just have gone off it altogether.

Cheers. I watched it and it was good. Not sure I'd rate it as high as Loss did, as it still seemed pretty usual for a Street Fight, but I dug that HBK upped the aggression, and I've liked what I've seen of Edge lately. My MOTY; wait, it's the only match I've seen this year. make a SD comp someone.

Don't the major US sports stop around this time? It always seems to pick up in the build up for Mania.

Thanks guys, I think I'll pick some of these up.

I enjoy discussing them. The point was that whether people like them or not is really of little consequence to my every day life. I'm pleased that WP liked my reviews. But if he didn't I wouldn't be losing sleep over them. I try to be honest and just write them as I see it, rather than having to adhere to any popular consensus. And hopefully it creates some discussion. The reviews don't 'miss the point'. There shouldn't be 'a point'. People should watch matches and get what they get out of them, not get something they're supposed to get. Well yeah, as I shouldn't need you to be telling me what I should be seeing in a match.

Change the record old timer. http://ccgi.simania.plus.com/forums/index....c=3470&st=0 I have never heard of or been on 'tOa'. Indeed, this is the first time I used the said phrase. Perhaps I should have said; 'Your opinions mean nothing to me'. God knows I don't want to become an internet stereotype courtesy of a man who has written over 160 of the 'mighty' wrestling reviews. Self serious? Not really. I write my reviews as a hobby, just as I watch wrestling as a hobby. I watch perhapd one match a day, if that, hence why I look for entertainment rather than other factors. Whether people like them is largely inconsequential. I have better things to worry about than what people think of my wrestling reviews.

I don't care if it meant to be there. The fact that it is meant to be there doesn't mean I have to like the match. Yellow Submarine is meant to be a humorous song. The fact I don't find it funny or entartaining means it hasn't succeeded in my eyes. I'd rather the Beatles had put a more serious song on Revolver. Misawa is meant to be stoic in his matches. The fact I don't get that vibe from him and he looks merely bored means it hasn't succeeded in my eyes. I'd rather he showed some emotion. I know why Slaughter/Patterson doesn't have high end offence. It doesn't mean I should like it for not having high end offence. I don't judge matches on high-end offence in the first place. It's just I'd rather they did more than punch each other, and actually busted out a few moves. I understand that in the context of the match, it was a hate filled brawl and it made sense to punch. But it doesn't mean I have to like it. There are tons of ROH spot-fu matches that I hate because they have high-end offence and nothing else. There's also a lot of matches that are without high end offence that I love, Flair/Steamboat being an example. I don't particularly 'look' for anything in matches. I watch a match and hope to be entertained, then invariably write my opinion of what I saw on the internet. In Misawa/Kawada what I saw was no complex story or intricate psychology, but I saw a very good match with a few flaws that prevented it from being one of my favourites. I shouldn't have to 'look' for what's supposed to be there, it should scream out at me. Matches are performed in different contexts, where the fans want different things. Put I don't plan to rate Patterson/Slaughter on a different system from Sayama/Dynamite, just because one is not meant to have high end offence in. I'm glad you think my opinions are dumb and off point. I toss your opinion on the proverbial woodpile...

I know he's meant to be stoic. Doesn't mean I have to like it. The vibe I get from watching the match isn't that he's stoic, it's that he looks uninterested. Personally I like to see a little more emotion in matches. My star ratings are pretty consistent. I don't rate much above **** because there isn't much that I feel is that great. Except in the case of Misawa/Kawada, I didn't think it was that 'great', whatever the widely accepted view may be. That'll be it. Oh, and this forum is Pro Wrestling Only. See this thread for that sort of thing... http://ccgi.simania.plus.com/forums/index....c=3470&st=0

It hardly makes me not 'smart' because I have a different opinion on a match than you.

Yeah, I never saw many WCW PPV's, depsite having seen a lot of the TV. Can anyone reccomend me the top events from 1990 onwards? Thanks.

I agree with Benoit not doing anything to get the audience into it, but he had other people who were great at that in the match, especially Rey Jr. Misawa was just bland to me in 06/03/94; you shouldn't have to look deep into a match to find a story and find what his character is meant to be thinking or doing. He merely looked bored at times, and considering he was facing a huge threat to his title, it seemed a little lazy. What can I say, I like strange things.

I understand that. They decided to work a different style of match playing off their strengths in 2005, Rey's as being a brilliant underdog babyface who bring strategy, Eddie as being a brilliant bullying heel who brings the cheating. And it works on a lot of levels, they wrestle a very good match. However, in 1997, they still had those strengths, if with a toned down strategy from Rey. In the Havoc match, they did all that, but still hit all the spots, still worked at a frenetic speed and had one of the greatest matches of all time. I felt the 2005 match was kind of the 1997 match stretched out, with a more realistic feel and better 'psychology', but lacking the freshness and amazing spots and pace of 1997. A lot of it comes down to what you like. You have to remember though, that the same thing happened in their 11/10/97 Nitro match. I think the main reason Eddie worked differently in 2005 was his extra bulk. I don't remember the selling being that good. I certainly seem to recall Rey blowing off some extensive back work at one point. But I don't think they 'replace' thue highspots from Havoc - the 97 match had selling just as good as that from 2005, and the storytelling was fine as well. Like I said before, I felt Havoc 97 had everything the 05 bout had, plus the amazing pace and highspots. I enjoyed the match, I just don't put it on the same level as Havoc. There is not a whole lot I can technically criticise about the 06/05 match, but it didn't excite me, or have me out of my seat. What I saw was ne of the better matches of the year, but not something very memorable. Most of the action, while being very good, was kind of forgettable. I don't see that at all. Yes, he's still a great worker, and is arguably the best sympathy face in the world, although I'd argue that Sydal is getting up there with him. But a lot of the matches I've seen him in, he just feeds people the same old DDT and Bulldog reversals, does his contrived set ups for the 619 and the cheap pop, and has toned down the stylt that made him a star in the first place. I think he's lost the aura of old. In 2002, he felt like a star. He had developed his selling and playing of the face role, and still had all his spots and amazing counters. I've rarely seen him that good since. He has slowed down the pace lately, and replaced it with, yes, some better storytelling and psychology, but a lot more predictablity. Yes, it is because of the knee injury, and he's had to tone down, but to me, he's lost something as a worker and as a character.

So recently purchased this set; I wanted to watch the matches again, there were some matches I actually hadn't seen, and the VQ on a lot of the stuff was better than what I already had. Some of my copies of the matches were still on VHS. Anyway, thought I'd write about the matches and discuss whether they still held up. It'll be constantly updated... DISC 1 1980 - Bob Backlund vs. Ken Patera (No DQ) (5/19 - Madison Square Garden) (WWF) 1981 - Pat Patterson vs. Sgt. Slaughter (Alley Fight) (4/21 - Madison Square Garden) (WWF) This match is all about the blood and the heat. If you like those, you've got them in droves here. The match is otherwise nothing out of the ordinary, but the rabid crowd and blind hatred take it to another level. Offensively too simplistic for my tastes, but nthey sent the crowd home happy, and remains a great spectacle, even if it is a bit overrated. *** 1/2 1982 - Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid (8/5 - Tokyo) (NJPW) 1983 - Harley Race vs. Ric Flair (Cage Match) (11/24 - Greensboro) (NWA) 1984 – The Freebirds vs. The Von Erichs (Street Fight) (7/4 - Ft. Worth) (WCCW) DISC 2 1985 - Tiger Mask II (Mitsuharu Misawa) vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi (6/12 - Tokyo Nippon Budokan) (AJPW) 1986 - Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (2/14 - Orlando) (NWA) A lot of people think of this as the best of their matches, but I prefer the 20/01/87 match. This is a little too Flair formula for me, so much so that you can predict most things that are going to happen in the final 15 minutes. There's a fair amount of strong matwork at the start, and then it picks up into a very good match, with both guys bleeding and a regular TV match turning into an epic championship battle. One thing they do great is sell the fatigue towards the finish, but it's just a little too similar to other Flair matches to be that good. ***3/4 1987 - Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage (3/29 - Pontiac) (WWF) 1988 - Ric Flair vs. Sting (3/27 - Greensboro) (NWA) DISC 3 1989 - Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (2/3 Falls) (4/2 - New Orleans) (NWA) I'm not usually a fan of long matches, but this really is the exception to the rule. This is a match that manages to be realistic, and in the biggest sense conveys that both guys really want to win. At the same time, they don't go overboard with the psychology so it is at the expense of creating a match that will entertain the entire audience. It's hard hitting, features two awesome characters, and is 55 minutes of wrestling that is done so well that you actually believe these guys want to hurt each other. So many great moments; the multiple pin attempts by Flair, the Steamboat elbow barrage, and everything else in between. It isn't perfect, as it suffers the fault of many long matches in that you become a little restless and bored towards the end, and Flair's formula stuff looks out of place and quite frankly silly at times. The first fall is maybe the best US wrestling I've seen though, and the others aren't too far behind. If I had a longer attention span, this could have been the best match I'd ever seen. ****1/4 1990 - Jushin Liger vs. Naoki Sano (1/31 - Osaka) (NJPW) 1991 - The Steiner Brothers vs. Kensuke Sasaki & Hiroshi Hase (3/21 - Tokyo Dome) (NJPW) I'd never seen this bfore, and it is, well, fun. They all look like they're being completely reckless here; Scott in particular. They just throw each other around, and in the case of the Steiners, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or rhythm to their offence at all. It's as if they just think of a move, and do it, without any forethought. It makes the match unpredictable and fairly real though, as you sense that even their opponents don't know what's coming next. There is some sloppy stuff in here, which was probably to be expected, but also some completely random stuff like Rick and Hase suddenly having a messy matwork battle in the middle of a Steiner's beat down. Sasaki is easily the most over guy in the match, and he's all kinds of fun when he gets in with his power offence. The Steiners are also great to watch, just taking Hase apart with a variety of suplexes and bombs, even if Hase doesn't sell it that well. Never a great match, but fun to watch. Kind of confusing that it won an award like this though. ***1/4 DISC 4 1992 - Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs. Tsuyoshi Kikuchi & Kenta Kobashi (5/25 - Miyagi) (AJPW) If only this wasn't so clipped. The action we get is fantastic, but my favourite part of these AJ tags were always the FIP sections, and the snippet we see of them here leaves me thinking how great this could have been if they left the whole of that in. As it is, it's a hot tag team match in the truest sense, with Kikuchi putting in a master performance, and the rest able to keep up. You know what to expect from these matches by now, I always look for action rather than story in AJ stuff, and this didn't disappoint. Still not my favourite AJ 90's tag, as I saw a brilliant 6-Man from 1991 that I'd rate higher. **** 1993 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki (2/3 Falls) (4/11 - Osaka) (AJW) 1994 - Razor Ramon vs. Shawn Michaels (Ladder Match) (3/20 - Madison Square Garden) (WWF) The first half of this is probably the best thing these two guys ever did. There's frenetic wrestling, fresh and painful ladder spots and all the elements of a great match. The second half is still awesome, but it doesn't live up to the opening stages. Nothing feels forced in this match; all of the ladder spots are natural, everything looks like it hurts, they both appear like they want to win the title. I thought they could have built to Shawn's jumps a lot better, especially the initial elbow, and this does drag at timkes towards the end, but you can't say this wasn't a revoloutionary match. Not as entertaining now though. ***3/4 1994 Runner Up: Mitsharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3 - Toykyo Nippon Budokan) (AJPW) With matches like this, that are generally accepted as 'greatest match ever' material, it's hard to not give that opinion once you've watched it. It may not move you or even entertain you, but you usually go with the popular consensus in saying what an awesome ***** classic it is. Actually, this isn't. It was a bloody good match, no doubt about it, but it doesn't evoke any feelings in me. Misawa is lacking in character, and even the wrestling can be faulted at times; too many kicks, random stuff like Misawa following up a Tiger Driver, one of his main moves, with the stretch plum, one of the shittiest legitimate finishers ever. Misawa blowing off a lot of Kawada offence, to start working on the legs. Stuff like the leg work; it plays off previous matches, and is solid as hell psychologically, but it isn't all that interesting. Misawa works over dull holds and adds little too them, despite Kawada's terrific selling. The hot stretch at the end is fantastic, and there are many great moments and nice touches. Fact remains though, this isn't the greatest singles match ever, not by a long way. ***3/4 DISC 5 1995 - Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue (60:00 Min Draw) (5/7 - Tokyo Korakuen Hall) (AJW) 1996 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Johnny Ace & Steve Williams (6/7 - Tokyo Nippon Budokan) (AJPW) For all the hype about this match, it isn't really all that worthy. It's a match built on well defined roles; Akiyama is the underdog kid, Misawa is the dominant champion, who struggles because he's teamed with someone who isn't actually that good, and the gajins play the typical roles of the evil foreigners. To be fair, they all play their roles perfectly, and it's great to watch, but apart from that, the match is fairly standard stuff. Whatever people might argue, there was no complicated story in this, and I think you miss the point of the match if you looked for one. It was solid, stiff action reminiscent of many All Japan matches of the 90's, but its substance has been vastly overstated. There is so much stuff they could have done better; shit, I know Misawa is stoic, but I'd like him to show at least a shred of emotion. Here, he merely looks lazy. Jonny Ace looks like his 'talent relations' job didn't come a moment too soon, with a lacklustre display only saved by a great moment where he gets pissed and murders Akiyama. Akiyama is decent enough in this match, but it's Doc who really saves this, with his usual awesome performance as the monster heel. I love the way he totally disrespects Jun, and he's so good that it ends up being more disapointing than satisfying when Misawa takes him out with some less-than-compelling offence. The final stages of the match are overbooked, and I couldn't decide whether it was five minutes too long or five too short, as I felt distincly underwhelmed by the finish. What you get out of this match depends what you look for. There are some neat moments, and if you love stiff All Japan tags building to an action-packed finale, you'll love this. And if you're some over emotional angst ridden teenager, I'm sure there's some complex and inspiring story for you to drag out of this; although, in reality, it's merely a pro wrestling match, and one with little emotional content at that. It's pretty good though. ***1/4 DISC 6 1997 - Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (I Quit Match) (3/23 - Chicago) (WWF) 1998 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (10/31 - Tokyo Nippon Budokan) (AJPW) 1999 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (6/11 - Tokyo Nippon Budokan) (AJPW) DISC 7 2000 - Atlantis vs. Villano III (Mask vs. Mask) (3/17 - Arena Mexico) (CMLL) 2001 - Keiji Mutoh vs. Genichiro Tenryu (6/8 - Tokyo Nippon Budokan) (AJPW) 2002 - Chris Benoit & Kurt Angle vs. Edge & Rey Mysterio Jr. (10/20 - Little Rock) (WWE) I fully expected to like this match less on a rewatch, but it's actually still a superb bout. It's the little things that make it, the things you don't expect to see in the WWE, like Angle's wry smile to the corner as he has Rey Jr's number. Rey excels in this match, conveying his emotion from under the mask, busting out intricate high spots and working his usual great FIP sections. Angle has his best performance in forever, Benoit is fucking Chris Benoit, and Edge puts on his best display of the year. It all comes together, the reversals don't feel overbooked, it has suprise moments, such as Angle rushing to the top to suplex Rey as he was about to win the match, it has Benoit working over an opponent. It has a good amount of faults as well, but I thought this was a v ery complete match, and easily the best WWF/E tag ever. ****1/4 DISC 8 2003 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (3/1 - Tokyo Nippon Budokan) (NOAH) Fantastic match. Hard hitting, huge spots, good wrestling, great strikes, the story of Misawa passing the torch, everything. Too much non-selling and overbooking, but I liked this a whole lot, and nearly as much of their two 1997 matches. ****1/4 2004 - Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama (7/10 - Tokyo Dome) (NOAH) 2005 - Kenta Kobashi vs. Samoa Joe (10/1 - New York) (ROH) Still didn't care for the tribute spots, but this was very good. Too much striking perhaps, Joe never really had a realistic chance of winning, especially after they blew the Muscle-Buster so early; nobody ever believed Kobashi was going down to the choke. Wasn't a squash though, and Joe even dominated the early staged, even if it did lead to Kobashi geting back on offence really lazily, with an elbow off the Ole Ole. Joe bumpred like crazy to get this to work, and the hot crowd certainly worked in its favour. The lack of commentary worked against it though; the answer is not to blank out commentary, it's to get better commentators. Anyway, this was very good, as you'd expect with Joe, the best in the world, and Kobashi, a man who's been one of the best for 15 years. And we were spared any FIGHTING SPIRIT! ***1/2

I actually didn't did that Rey/Eddie match as much as some. Very good match, no doubt, but when you've seen Havoc it's rather disappointing. They try to work a different style, but aren't so good at it, at least with each other. I still maintain Rey's peak was 2002.

Suprised to see you liked HBK/Edge so much. Might have to check it out, because I love angry HBK in a street fight. How does it compare to their street fight on Raw last year?

I may be being ignorant here, as I haven't seen much of it, but it looked to me that his last GHC run failed more on booking than anything else. He was wrestling average opponents who people didn't really buy beating him in most cases. Yes, Kobashi carried guys like that, but I love Akiyama's stoic heel performances more than anything in wrestling, and think he deserves another shot.

Personally I'd like to see Akiyama have another run. I still think he's top 5 in the world, from the limited stuff I've seen.

I try to look for entertainment in matches these days, rather than good psychology and stuff. I don't look too deeply these days, but I found this match dull offensively, which I don't think was looking too deep. The fact that it was still enjoyable without it says a lot for its good points in other areas though. I'll pretty much subscribe to that pinion. I don't think I'd like Orton/Hogan so much on a second viewing. It had a lot of things going for me. I was in a good mood at the time, I loved the retro feel of the match, the fact Orton was put over despite losing. the simple formula of him working over the leg, his great, coky heel performance and his dickish expressions. Hogan was good as the superhero fighting for the crowd as well. I just loved it at the time.