Loss

Whatever it was. IT WORKED. Re: Meltzer: Highest drawing wrestling show on TBS through at least the end of 94 or so: 9/90 Mountain Madness Clash of Champions headlined by Sting vs. Black Scorpion and Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger which drew 2,769,000 households Dave is right that watching that show, Flair and Luger come across as way bigger stars than Sting due to the crowd reaction and match quality difference between their match and Sting's match. Yes, the thought in 1990 was that Flair's days on top were over after dropping the belt to Sting. It's a shame you don't have Pro (not even the NY, Chicago versions, but the version hosted by Russell and the Freebirds), because more of the Freebirds/Southern Boys stuff played out there, and it was pretty fun. *cough* 1990 Yearbook will have it *cough*

CHEATER!

"The chase" is something I think that is used differently within wrestling than we use it on message boards. I don't think it means that babyfaces can't have long title runs. It means that in wrestling, you can make more money slow building to the heel finally getting his full comeuppance. Why do one huge show when you can do three others before you have to do that big show? The existence of the Royal Rumble in the whole Road-To-Wrestlemania mythology is an example of this. Austin and Hogan didn't chase belts, as belts have never really meant all that much in the company compared to other promotions. But they have definitely chased heels for revenge, and even moreso, heel managers (Heenan, Vince, etc). Look at Wrestlemania II for an example. Hogan beating up Heenan in the post-match was the payoff, not Hogan winning the cage match against Bundy. Often times, terms in wrestling are used in ways that don't quite make sense. "Gimmick" is used as a catch-all for a lot of things. "Kayfabe" as I understand it is a noun, but I've heard it used as a verb. "The chase" is the same logic.

Not everything can be on a yearbook. Both were considered. There wasn't room to include either.

I'm not sure Swagger, who's had a title run, has ever been pushed to be as important as Beefcake was when he was pushed to be his most important.

Paul Orndorff would have been a definite yes. Piper would have been a definite yes. Kamala and Bundy would have been strong possibilities. Even Perfect in '89 (while it would have bombed) would have been a possibility. Also, why are you saying post-1985 now when you started this thread for the entire 70s and 80s?

The problem is that it feels like I'm watching stuff not many other people care much to talk about. I'm still going to watch it and post, but I am going to slow down just a little bit and try to mix in things other people mention them instead of waiting 5+ years for that year to get yearbooked.

What Cena/Undertaker match am I forgetting about?

CM Punk vs Chavo Guerrero - ECW 02/05/08 (Gulf of Mexico match) The idea here is they're dressed in street clothes, and the first person to throw his opponent in the Gulf of Mexico wins. The concept is preposterous enough to be lots of fun with the right people. Punk and Chavo manage to have a pretty stiff, Regal/Finlay like brawl, in the sense that all of their shots look really good and connect. The action starts in the ring and spills outside. While it's about 5-7 minutes shorter, I don't think this is too far off from the Benoit/Sullivan Falls Count Anywhere match at the Great American Bash in '96. Some may not like it as much as me -- I mainly liked it because all the strikes looked so good and because they took what was a ridiculous premise and made it work well. But at the very least, I think everyone will consider this "fun".

Jeff Hardy vs Umaga - WWE RAW 01/07/08 (Cage match) Really good, high energy cage match that was also a nice piece of business. However, I'm still pretty amazed that they had Hardy promise a title win and didn't follow through. Anyway, the story here is Umaga cutting off Hardy's offense repeatedly and softening him up for the upcoming Orton match. They spend a few minutes in nerve holds, but it fits the story of the match. Most of the match is Hardy selling while Umaga throws everything he can at him. This all builds to a really hot comeback from Hardy. It's hard to point to specific things that stand out about this match. It's surprisingly basic for a Hardy cage match. There is only one big highspot (which I'm happy to see is treated like a big deal and is also the finish) but most of this is built around the smaller guy selling for the monster. Had I been following things closely at the time, I would have watched this and looked forward to Hardy taking the title.

Looking at Cena's best opponents strangely motivated me to get caught up on some stuff I have missed the last few years. I really want to go through everything post-Benoit that I haven't seen and make sense of it all. I'm using as a guide for what to watch from 2008. If it was nominated, I want to watch it regardless. I'll mix this in with my yearbook viewing and do both things at the same time. Worth watching: - Jeff Hardy vs Umaga (WWE RAW 01/07/08) ***1/2 - CM Punk vs Chavo Guerrero (ECW 02/05/08) ***1/2 Skippable:

I actually think Jericho is Cena's best repeated opponent. Others have had better matches with him, but his matches with Jericho have been consistently good. Jerry Lawler 1. Bill Dundee 2. Dutch Mantell 3. Terry Funk 4. Kerry Von Erich 5. Randy Savage 2 Cold Scorpio (A little harder because he doesn't have a lot of "series" opponents that I like) 1. Chris Benoit 2. Barry Windham 3. Steve Austin 4. Shane Douglas 5. Eddy Guerrero Nick Bockwinkel (Need to see way more, so I expect this to be different in a few years) 1. Curt Hennig 2. Rick Martel 3. Jerry Lawler 4. Jumbo Tsuruta 5. Billy Robinson John Cena 1. Chris Jericho 2. Shawn Michaels 3. Randy Orton 4. Umaga 5. Edge William Regal 1. Chris Benoit 2. Fit Finlay 3. Shinya Hashimoto 4. Psicosis 5. Barry Windham (Even though there's only one match that I know of, it's my favorite Regal match)

Probably similar to Undertaker's title runs, which have typically been short (or cut short). Probably not the best comparison, but I've always compared Andre and Undertaker for some reason.

Luger would have had quite a few before '91. Probably Earthquake in 1990. Barry Windham. Rick Rude around the turn of the decade possibly (more of an early 90s example). Ted DiBiase. In short, a lot more heels in the WWF and a lot more babyfaces in the NWA.

What makes Ricky Morton so awesome is that he wasn't an attractive guy, but he was a great enough worker to get over with women because he was so good at getting sympathy in the ring. Morton never needed to look a certain way to be effective. The whole point was that he was good enough to portray something bigger than what he actually was.

Possibly, but I really hate the concepts of finishers in general and don't think wrestlers should even have them. Signature moves, yes. Finishers, no. But that's a different topic.

After thinking about it, I'm wondering if Taue clawing at Misawa's eye in an attempt to salvage his chances is my favorite moment in any wrestling match I've ever seen.

The territories being in danger was hardly a grave secret. The Funks got out of Amarillo in the mid-70s because they saw what was coming.

I can't say I don't sympathize with the frustration Dave and Bryan have running their board. I think a highly moderated Dave-heavy forum would be great. I can only imagine what his subscribers within wrestling think of it if they ever look at it. But the worst elements of that board are an example of the mindset behind making Pro Wrestling Only the type of board it is. And even here, we've had some questionable things pop up from time to time.

Demolition was awesome at.... Oh, wait you mean TODAY. Nevermind. Other stuff I don't see much anymore: * Leapfrogs * Armdrags * Hiptosses * Reverse rollups Basically, transitional moves and flash pin attempts. I may just not be paying attention.

Do hot tags ever get teased and cut off in tag matches? I remember getting frustrated with WWE tags at one point because everyone always made the hot tag on the first try.

Since Flair was getting so cheered anyway, the fantasy angle that has always been discussed is the Horsemen turning on Flair, DiBiase winning the title, and Flair teaming with guys like Barry Windham against the DiBiase-led Horsemen group.

Calling him Assistant Booker is probably understating what he did. Calling him Head Booker is probably overstating what he did. He probably had a more undercard/B-show/cruiserweight focus than Kevin Sullivan, but he contributed ideas at all levels. He can be credited for things like putting Eddy and Dean at the U.S. title level in '97, Jericho's initial heel push, longer cruiser matches on PPV, etc. Sullivan was the head booker, but Taylor played a big role. Another factor was that DiBiase felt no matter how over he got, JCP had a clique of guys who controlled the top of the card, and an outsider was going to be limited in how much they could do in the promotion. At least that's what he said when he was asked about it in a newspaper interview he did in '88. Theer's probably some truth in that. I think DiBiase said had they offered him a Lex Luger deal (Luger got a HUGE deal coming in despite being unproven because they thought he was the next Hogan), he would have considered coming in. He won't get called on the carpet for it so much, but Flair was a big part of the problem with it not working. He did not want Steve Williams billed as champ on NWA TV, which Crockett agreed with, and he also took something Eddie Gilbert said in a promo personally and started throwing shoot comments at him in some TV interview during that time. (At least that's the story ...)

I do think UWF/NWA was a missed opportunity. At the same time, I think one thing that gets overlooked is that there were a lot of wrestling fans who didn't know the UWF existed. They had only been national for a year, and they hadn't been very successful at it. Even in their attempt to go national, it was still mostly a regional promotion. Even my parents, who attended live UWF shows, always thought they were seeing live NWA shows and didn't know the difference between the two companies. I think this is because of stuff like Flair appearing on Mid South TV sometimes, Ivan and Nikita being part of the Russian flag angle, etc.

More wrestling fans celebrated Thanksgiving than purchased Survivor Series. Attendance was down in the Smith household this year from last year. The general feeling is that without Aunt Trudy's delightful mashed potatoes and gravy, the meal was missing its top draw. Grandpa having too much wine last year was also frowned upon by some sponsors, and the Mom-daughter feud from last year hurt the return gate this time around. Not to mention that every angle tried since Jason brought his boyfriend home and came out has seemed anti-climatic. However, Christmas is only a month away, so it could just be a case of people deciding not to show up for the B show. In fact, some argued that Cousin Ingrid from Sweden flying in should have been held off where it would mean more on the bigger holiday. (Her husband John is considered difficult to be around, but Dave said anyone who has a problem with this doesn't understand holidays, as he should be happy since him showing up means more presents for everyone.)