Loss
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Everything posted by Loss
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Also, saying that the match suffered because Ric Flair should have taken it upon himself to violate company policy is a very, very unreasonable expectation. -
I was responding to John's specific point that these are guys that bled and brawled for a decade, so it was fair to expect them to do that in this match.
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I challenge you to indicate which specific offense in the match was "tired", and why it kept the match from being something it should have been that it wasn't.
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Come on Loss. Dirtiest Player In The Game vs The Enforcer We're suppose to think this was going to be Billy Robinson vs Verne Gagne working a technical match? Christ, neither of them were technical wrestlers. They were brawlers and fighters who bled all over the place for more than a decade. Come on, that's a massive case of you putting words in my mouth and you know it. Steve Austin was a strong mat wrestler in 1993-1994 WCW and no one mistakes him for Robinson or Gagne. No one mistakes Dean Malenko for Robinson or Gagne. No one mistakes Mike Graham for Robinson or Gagne. That doesn't mean those guys weren't pushed as strong wrestlers. It's concerning to say one has to be the very best in a style in order to deliver a solid match in that style. My comment was in no way a reflection of the quality of matwork they'd deliver. But if you look at the match, they're working holds for a big majority of it. The match fit the buildup. Neither Flair nor Arn being Volk Han doesn't mean they're clueless and can't work holds. You thinking that I thought fans wanted Billy Robinson vs Verne Gagne out of a wrestling match between Ric Flair and Arn Anderson would be the equivalent of me taking your point and saying you obviously want Flair and Arn to have a match in someone's backyard with "Pa" banned from ringside, where anything less than that would have been a letdown. But as long as we're on that point, Flair and Arn weren't brothers. They were very close friends, and their friendship was a hugely pushed thing throughout JCP and later WCW history. But they weren't brothers. How is wanting this backyard BBQ fight between Flair and Arn something that applies exclusively to them? Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty teamed for a long time. Did you feel their matches were lacking for the same reason? If you do, fair enough, but I'm curious. You also ignore that WCW had a no blood policy at this time, yet you criticize Flair and Arn for not doing a match with lots of blood. You are also setting aside all the 60 minute matches involving Flair that had plenty of headlocks, figure fours, arm work, etc. Say what you will about the quality or how much you like what they did, but don't pretend it didn't exist. Not really. It's what they ended up doing in the match. There's also the small detail of Funk piledriving Flair on a table, breaking his neck and sidelining him for two months. That's kind of important. That made Flair/Funk a blood feud. Flair and Arn had no incident anywhere near that heated that would necessitate that style of match.
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The story of Flair vs Arn is not a match of hate. At all. It was that Flair only thought about himself and relied on Arn to achieve his greatness for years, to a point where he took it for granted. Arn was happy to call Flair a friend, but thought Flair didn't value him. He didn't want the match and was incredibly nervous about even having to do it, but felt like he needed to have the match if he had any self respect at all. So the whole purpose of the storyline (pre-swerve) was that Arn was trying to prove he was on Flair's level as a wrestler, and also to show Flair that life would be different without him around. In the bigger picture, they were also pushing that Hogan's arrival in WCW had driven Flair mad, to a point where everything everyone used to admire about him was slowly withering away. He had lost almost everyone who was in his corner at any point. Arn was the only guy who had stood by him, and now Arn just couldn't do it anymore either. So the match is wrestled more like Arn trying to make a point to Ric than it is that they hated each other. That wasn't really part of the feud. I do think the feud could have continued without the swerve and been a full series of matches where the story kind of changed over time. And eventually, the match you wanted from them probably would have been appropriate. But in their first meeting, considering that neither guy was at a point of despising the other? Not yet. I'd actually make the case for Flair/Arn as one of Flair's most psychologically *on point* matches. It's not a classic and you won't hear me calling it that (even though I consider it a very good match). But the match absolutely fit the storyline. Also, I have never liked the comparisons of wrestling to real fighting. Arn wasn't trying to prove that he was tougher than Flair or kick his ass. He was trying to prove that he could outwrestle him in a sporting sense. If tempers flare, tempers flare, but it really wasn't your normal turn where tensions finally boil over and the two can't wait to lock up when the match starts. Arn needed to show Flair (and himself) that he could hang with Flair.
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Restarting from a standing position often feels like they're starting the match over too if it's done too many times. And that everything that happened before that is no longer important.
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Eddie Gilbert on South Street!
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June 1993: #1 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/01/93) ****1/2 #2 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa (AJPW 06/03/93) ****1/4 #3 - Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (WAR 06/17/93) ****1/4 #4 - Wild Pegasus vs El Samurai (NJPW Top of the Super Juniors Final 06/14/93) ****1/4 #5 - Riki Choshu & Shinya Hashimoto & Tatsumi Fujinami & Masa Chono & Hiroshi Hase vs Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara & Takashi Ishikawa & Tatsu Goto & Super Strong Machine (NJPW 06/15/93) **** #6 - Hiroshi Hase vs Samson Fuyuki (WAR 06/17/93) **** #7 - Barry Windham vs 2 Cold Scorpio (WCW Clash of the Champions XXIII 06/16/93) **** #8 - Bret Hart vs Mr. Perfect (WWF King of the Ring 06/13/93) **** #9 - Marty Jannetty vs Doink the Clown (WWF Monday Night RAW 06/21/93) **** #10 - Bret Hart vs Bam Bam Bigelow (WWF King of the Ring 06/13/93) **** #11 - Terry Funk vs Eddie Gilbert (ECW Super Summer Sizzler Spectacular 06/19/93) ***3/4 #12 - Jerry Flynn vs Diuseul Berto (PWFG 06/01/93) ***1/2 #13 - Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Osamu Kido (NJPW 06/14/93) ***1/2 #14 - Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Joe Malenko (PWFG 06/01/93) ***1/4 #15 - Bret Hart vs Razor Ramon (WWF King of the Ring 06/13/93) ***1/4 #16 - Razor Ramon vs 1-2-3 Kid (WWF Monday Night RAW 06/21/93) ***
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We get a bunch of shots of NYC subways and some rapping to let us know Men on a Mission is here!
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One of those things that had it worked the way it was designed, this would be remembered as an all-time classic angle. It's still really well done and holds up great, but obviously it didn't have the desired result in the end. But having professional athletes from other sports was a really nice touch, and the way some guys came close and couldn't quite do it also worked really well. I'm looking forward to checking out the Luger push again.
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This is a waaaaaay better match than the Clash -- way more focused with both Flair and Arn acting as faces in peril. The Flair/Windham stuff is really good, which just makes the Beach Blast match all the more disappointing. Windham is the star of his match if only because he has so much great offense and he was really comfortable in his role, so maybe rather than the Clash, this is his real last hurrah. Roma I think is in the match one time for a very brief spell. They were obviously trying to hide him.
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Dustin Rhodes shows up to try to help Cactus Jack remember that he was a wrestler. Cactus is convinced Dustin is a country singer. Dustin does the "bang bang", which trigger Cactus's memory. Absolutely preposterous.
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Tammy Fytch and Brian Lee are poolside. They are really pushing the idolization of Hillary Clinton hard. Lee explains his heel turn and they splice in clips to piece it all together, which is great.
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Great highlights of the match. Owen and his feathered hair work hard. Lawler piledrives Owen eight times and gets DQd. Lawler comes out and does another great promo, but first, we get the prequel to Owen's 1994 as he does a standard heel run wearing a neckbrace while Bert Prentice holds the mic.
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This is a great match, obviously, but me walking through it wouldn't really demonstrate that at all. As great as this match was, one thing I will say is that it always seems much easier to remember all the twists and turns in the Tenryu vs New Japan matches. The reason is because they space out everything. While everyone in the Tenryu matches would have to be having a great night to come close to the action in this match, I can honestly say that as soon as this ended, I didn't remember very much about it. Because instead of setting things up and paying them off, it's more a spotfest. And hey, if you want to watch a great spotfest, these guys are great picks for that. But because of the rep this match has, I really expected more. But it just might be the best heavyweight spotfest there is, and it's still something I'd consider a mid-range MOTYC.
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May I ask what Fujiwara matches aren't him vs a technician?
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Gilbert is walking around at some carnival in a cape and crown and ends up arguing with Todd Gordon. He's also wearing a "Love Me, Love My Dog" t-shirt.
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Funk wants Eddie Gilbert & Dark Patriot anyway he can get them -- at the same time, separately, wherever. Funk offers to put up his hair if that's what it takes.
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Cactus has amnesia and is speaking nonsense. Yeeeeaaah ...
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Flair is dressed like Dusty, wearing denim, a cowboy hat and cowboy boots! But Dusty comes out ... dressed like Flair, wearing a suit. (He's wearing black jeans, but it's Dusty.) Interesting to see these two on good terms. The Assassin comes out after a few minutes and tries to provoke Dusty in a fight. I love Flair here when Dusty stands up and gets a little closer. "Come on Dusty, give me your watch." I suppose this is the best Flair for the Gold.
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Eric Bischoff is in sunglasses and a Hawaiian shirt. He runs down the card, and they show a clip of a Flair/Windham brawl from Worldwide. The brawl is much better than their match at Beach Blast would be from what is shown, as they brawl twice backstage, in the ring and even outside.
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Clips of a match from a house show. DWB comes out to attack Smothers with a chair, but Smothers still gets the win and is getting the better of both guys for a moment. Brian Lee finally comes out to even the sides and clears the ring. He sits Smothers down in the chair, then turns on him! Lee says he's tired of being a big man living in a little man's shadow.
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Really cool, old photos of Jackie Fargo narrating his career. Then, Lawler does an interview wearing a WWF King of the Ring t-shirt and holding his crown. Lawler is out to explain why he's on WWF TV acting like the baddest guy around. This is one of the greatest promos in wrestling history. "When he called me the Burger King, I gave him the Whopper, didn't I?" Lawler says when their paths cross, he'll take care of him. But now, Owen Hart is in Memphis and Lawler says he's going to take him out. This is AMAZING.
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Interestingly, the cover of the WWF Magazine shown has a Hogan vs Bret teaser. Gorilla Monsoon recaps the week for the tag titles, where The Steiners won the tag titles, lost them to Money Inc. two days later, and won the belts back three days later. Gorilla makes the point that a title change could take place in YOUR hometown, so make sure you catch these teams live. That is not typical WWF booking at all, and I remember Dave using it as evidence of the company booking for their hardcore fans instead of a wider audience.
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Paul E. Dangerously introduces a video, telling a totally believable story of a kid approaching Gilbert on the NJ Turnpike and saying he was going to move out of Philly until Gilbert became king. Then we get a Gilbert montage to some schmancy music.