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"Their returns to the ballot will be 30 years after their last year as a significant star and major player." 2024 seems a long time to put Murdoch back on the ballot as a historical candidate based on this criterion. 1988 was really the last year Murdoch was a Hall Of Fame level star/worker. Regarding Ivan Koloff, it will be tough for him to get voted in as a modern U.S./Canada candidate, as things stand. His prime was in the late 1960s and 1970s, long before many voters started watching wrestling (or were even born). It's not impossible for someone like that to get voted in, but usually it requires a death bump. It does look like we may have some lean years without many candidates getting in. The Mexican voters continue to cancel each other out. Punk only got 19%, which suggests Bryan and Orton won't come close next year either. Colon just looks like he'll never get over the hump. Ditto The Assassins.

If the best TNA can get is Destination America, then I doubt Jeff Jarrett will have much luck finding a TV deal.

WWE definitely cooled off on John Cena quickly after he debuted. He went from rubbing shoulders with the top stars on Smackdown in July 2002 to being just a guy on the card two months later. Even when he got the rapper gimmick he didn't get a big push straight away. Looking at the results of the time period, they didn't seem to get high on Cena again until shortly before WM 19 in 2003.

To be fair, this is the first Hell In A Cell pay-per-view that has a Hell In A Cell match on it deserving of the gimmick. Maybe WWE have finally learnt something from their mistakes?

Given the hand WWE dealt themselves, they really should have had Angle turn on Austin for treating him like such a clown in the month prior. The Austin turn clearly wasn't working and they lucked into an angle where they could seamlessly transition him back into his old role.

All of this......you would have to have someone booking it with no preconceived notions coming in but of course that person would be working under Vince who would veto whatever the fuck he wanted to. I'm not sure Vince was so much the problem, as the people around him who told him what he wanted to hear in order to earn brownie points from the boss. Apparently, Kevin Dunn was in Vince's ear constantly pushing that they needed to keep the WWE brand strong during this time period.

The issue with Sheamus is that he got the Roman Reigns push in the spring of 2012 and didn't get over at the level of his push. It's a shame that WWE booking seems to focus around a few heavily pushed guys, as Sheamus is a perfect example of a wrestler who could get cycled into a main event feud every so often to freshen things up on top a bit.

Yeah, they had a huge turnover of talent during this period, which meant the open quickly got outdated.

Wasn't part of the reason Dusty chose Rick Steiner was because he was a shooter and could do things the hard way if Flair refused to do it the easy way? Regarding Flair going over Luger at Starrcade '88, wasn't that Larry Matysik's idea who had Jim Herd's ear at the time?

I think an argument can be made that his current run as a draw has been disappointing too so far. He drew well with John Cena and Triple H on his first couple of pay-per-view shows, but since then he hasn't really justified his hefty price tag (as he isn't a huge merchandise seller or ratings draw to make up for cooling off as a PPV draw).

I'm not sure Kane is a fair comparison, as he wasn't a consistent house show main eventer throughout his WWE run, nor was he ever a top tier worker. Probably the closest comparison would be Randy Orton, although he was a bigger star at his peak, but wasn't as good a worker.

Parv, I think you're better looking at singles match results to see where the gaijin stood in comparison to one another, as we are often unsure who dropped the fall in the Baba/Inoki main event tag matches of the era. In his first tour of Japan in 1976, DiBiase lost singles matches to Jumbo (four times), The Destroyer (once), Samson Katuwada (twice), Great Kojika (once), Akihisa Takachiho (once), whilst only picking up one win against Katsuwada. During the Champions Carnival tournament in 1978, DiBiase lost to King Curtis Iaukea, Kintaro Oki, Don Leo Jonathan, Jumbo Tsuruta, The Destroyer, Black Terror (Tank Patton), Giant Baba and Abdullah The Butcher, but he did defeat Motoshi Okuma, Rocky Hata, Luke Graham, Frank Morrell, and The Great Kojika. A better showing, but still clearly a mid level foreigner. 1980 Champions Carnival was similar, losing to the big names like Abby, Baba, Jumbo and Terry Funk, draws with equally ranked foreigners like Dick Slater, Ray Candy and Tiger Toguchi, whilst beating Motoshi Okuma, Rocky Hata and The Great Kojika again, as well as The Mysterious Assassin (Bobby Jaggers) and Carl Fergie. DiBiase is clearly below Murdoch in the All Japan pecking order from 1976-1980, as Murdoch's only singles match defeat during this period was dropping the NWA United National Title strap back to Jumbo on 5th March, 1980. DiBiase only gets elevated to Murdoch's level once Dickie jumped ship to New Japan in the summer of 1981.

I think it was just Dave's way of highlighting that Taue wasn't as big a star as the other three or the New Japan guys, which he wasn't. I don't think anything pertaining to the retirement ceremony itself will play a factor in Japanese voters' decisions. It was still an odd talking point the way he put it, as Muto hasn't officially retired yet, nor has Chono.

I mentioned this on Twitter, but Dave predicting that Edge could become the modern Murdoch candidate (where his peers all vote for him, but is shut out of the Hall Of Fame by not getting votes in other groups) was really odd when wrestlers have never voted for Edge all that highly, outside of getting a post retirement sympathy bump. I know Dave is high on him as a worker, but it's clear that's not held as a universal belief within the industry. Really, Daniel Bryan is probably the closest comparison to Murdoch in the current scene, and he'll likely get in quickly as soon as he's old enough. Regarding Bearcat Wright, he seems to be really hurt by refusing to drop and then fleeing with the WWA World Heavyweight Championship in December 1963. Which is a bit ironic given that no-one holds Lesnar walking out on a WWE contract and New Japan without dropping the IWGP strap against him as a candidate (or Steve Austin refusing to job to Lesnar on TV and walking out on the company). It seems like history paints Wright as being clearly in the wrong, but I'd like to see that probed in greater detail. He clearly was a great draw in Los Angeles at the time. Was this a racially motivated move because they didn't want their World title on a black man for too long? Or was he cooling off as a draw and it was time to go in a new direction on top? I know Loss once said that a Hall Of Fame isn't a place to right wrongs, but in Wright's case I'm not sure about that.

Dick Murdoch's St. Louis attendance as a headliner

Oops, wrong thread!

St. Louis attendances for shows Murdoch was in one of the main events: Feb. 16, 1973 – Kiel (att. 6463) *Missouri Champion Terry Funk beat Jerry Brisco *The Invader double DQ Pat O’Connor April 27, 1973 – Kiel (att. 10,387) *Missouri Champion Gene Kiniski beat Harley Race, who was DQ by special referee Joe Louis *Bruno Sammartino beat The Invader inside the 7-foot high chain link fence. Invader unmasked to be Dick Murdoch. Sept. 13, 1974 – Kiel (att. 7440) *Missouri Champion Dory Funk Jr. beat Dick Murdoch *Johnny Valentine beat Big Bill Miller in a Texas Death Match Nov. 7, 1975 – Kiel (att. 4233) *Dick Murdoch double DQ Bruno Sammartino *Missouri Champion Harley Race beat Red Bastien Jan. 16, 1976 – Kiel (att. 4877) *Bruno Sammartino beat Dick Murdoch in a “no DQ” match March 12, 1976 – Kiel (att. 9608) *Missouri Champion Harley Race beat Lord Alfred Hayes *Dick the Bruiser won a Wrestle Royal outlasting in order out Frank Valois, Allen Klein, Ronnie Etchison, Pat O’Connor, Ox Baker, Tank Patton, Andre the Giant and Moose Cholak together, Rufus R. Jones, Killer Karl Krupp, Ray Candy, Black Jack Lanza and Dick Murdoch Jan. 27, 1978 – Kiel (att. 6140) *Rocky Johnson beat Dick Murdoch *Ric Flair beat Dory Funk Jr. March 3, 1978 – Kiel (att. 5565) *Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch double DQ Dick the Bruiser *Ric Flair beat Pat O’Connor March 17, 1978 – Kiel (att. 8528) *Andre the Giant won a 17-man Wrestle Royal by outlasting in order out Black Jack Lanza, Ox Baker, Jack Kruger, Bobby Jaggers, Doug Somers, Evan Johnson, David Von Erich, Buddy Wolfe, Kevin Sullivan, Ric Flair, Pat O’Connor, Dick the Bruiser, Dick Murdoch and Rocky Johnson together, Bulldog Bob Brown and Alexi Smirnoff *Terry Funk beat Black Jack Lanza May 19, 1978 – Kiel (att. 6795) *Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch beat Jack Brisco. Special referee, Pat O’Connor. June 16, 1978 – Kiel (att. 6586) *NWA Champion Harley Race beat Dick Murdoch 2/3 falls July 14, 1978 – Kiel (att. 6728) *Dick the Bruiser won the Missouri State Championship by beating Dick Murdoch *Jack Brisco beat Jim Valiant Feb. 2, 1979 – Kiel (att. 10,800 sellout) *Ric Flair and Dick Murdoch won an “all in” team match from Andre the Giant and Rocky Johnson when Flair beat Johnson. Murdoch was a sub for King Kong Brody, whose flight was grounded by snow in Dallas. *Andre the Giant won a Wrestle Royal by outlasting in order out Pierre Bonnett, Hartford Love, David Von Erich, Mike Bowyer, Tom Andrews, Randy Alls, Bryan St. John, Dick the Bruiser, Siegfried Stanke, Bobo Brazil, Ric Flair, Pat O’Connor and Dick Murdoch together, Bulldog Bob Brown and Bob Sweetan. March 9, 1979 – Kiel (att. 6540) *Andre the Giant beat Dick Murdoch via DQ April 6, 1979 – Kiel (att. 7564) *Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch no contest Dick the Bruiser. After each man won one fall, both were DQ in the deciding fall. May 18, 1979 – Kiel (att. 7985) *Dick the Bruiser won the Missouri State Championship from Dick Murdoch inside the chain-link fence after Murdoch got into a scuffle with special referee Pat O’Connor July 13, 1979 – Kiel (att. 6486) *Dick Murdoch won the Missouri State Championship by beating Dick the Bruiser 2/3 falls. Receiving two piledrivers on the floor before losing the second fall, Bruiser injured his shoulder and could not continue in the third fall. *King Kong Brody beat Ted DiBiase Aug. 10, 1979 – Kiel (att. 7995) *NWA Champion Harley Race beat Dick Murdoch 2/3 falls. Special referee, Verne Gagne. Sept. 14, 1979 – Kiel (att. 11,051 sellout) *King Kong Brody won a Wrestle Royal outlasting in order out Kevin Von Erich, Steve Hall, Bob Sweetan, Dick Murdoch, Andre the Giant, The Turk, Frank Hill, Ron Starr, Dory Funk Jr., Lord Alfred Hayes, Bulldog Bob Brown, George Wells, David Von Erich, Roger Kirby and Bobby Duncum *Andre the Giant beat King Kong Brody via DQ Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch draw Dory Funk Jr. Oct. 19, 1979 – Kiel (att. 5894) *Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch no contest Dory Funk Jr. After man won one fall, both were counted out outside the ring in the third fall. Nov. 2, 1979 – Kiel (att. 7844) *Kevin Von Erich won the Missouri State Championship by beating Dick Murdoch *Gene Kiniski beat Bulldog Bob Brown Dec. 7, 1979 – Kiel (att. 6790) *David and Kevin Von Erich won from NWA Champion Harley Race and Dick Murdoch. 1-Murdoch beat Kevin. 2-David beat Murdoch. 3-David beat Race. Jan. 25, 1980 – Kiel (att. 11,053 sellout) *King Kong Brody and Dick Murdoch won from Andre the Giant and Dick the Bruiser when Murdoch beat Bruiser *Missouri Champion Kevin Von Erich beat Jack Brisco *Andre the Giant and Dick the Bruiser were co-winners of a Wrestle Royal as they agreed to split the purse. In order out were Billy Howard, Tommy Sharp, Kerry Brown, Ron McFarlane, Dick Murdoch, Sailor Art Thomas, Eddie Gilbert, Ed Wiskoski, Jack Brisco, Pat O’Connor, David Von Erich, Takachiho, Bulldog Bob Brown and Lord Alfred Hayes. Feb. 8, 1980 – Kiel (att. 6465) *Missouri Champion Kevin Von Erich beat Dick Murdoch 2/3 falls; Murdoch won the first fall, the second fall won by Kevin via DQ, and Kevin won the final fall *King Kong Brody double DQ David Von Erich May 16, 1980 – Kiel (att. 6890) *Missouri Champion Ken Patera beat Kevin Von Erich 2/3 falls *King Kong Brody and Dick Murdoch ruled a draw after Brody refused to accept victory for Murdoch being counted out outside the ring Saturday, July 12, 1980 – Kiel (att. 6490) *David Von Erich beat Ric Flair *Dick the Bruiser and Dick Murdoch were both counted out outside the ring Sept. 12, 1980 – Kiel (att. 10,799 – missed sellout by less than one hundred tickets) *Dick the Bruiser beat Dick Murdoch inside the chain-link fence. Sam Muchnick had stated that it was the last time he would book Bruiser versus Murdoch. *Ric Flair beat Ted DiBiase Dec. 5, 1980 – Kiel (att. 7680) *Ted DiBiase won a Wrestle Royal by outlasting in order out Billy Starr, Akio Sato, Takachiho, Kerry Brown, Bob Sweetan, Jesse Barr, Rufus R. Jones, Mike George, Buzz Tyler, Pat O’Connor, Dick Murdoch, Kevin Von Erich, Dick the Bruiser and King Kong Brody together, and Bulldog Bob Brown. *Ken Patera and Dick the Bruiser won a handicap match from NWA Champion Harley Race. 1-Race beat Bruiser on DQ. 2-Patera beat Race. Jan. 23, 1981 – Kiel (att. 11,081 sellout) *Andre the Giant and Bruce Reed agreed to share the victory in a Wrestle Royal as they outlasted in order out Big John Studd, Billy Starr, Jerry Roberts, Pat Kelly, Pat O’Connor, Terry Taylor, Ox Baker, Ric Flair, Buzz Tyler, Mike Kelly and Dick the Bruiser together, Spike Huber and Bulldog Bob Brown. *King Kong Brody and Andre the Giant won from Ric Flair and Dick Murdoch when Brody beat Murdoch March 6, 1981 – Kiel (att. 6976) *Missouri Champion Ted DiBiase beat Big John Studd *Dick Murdoch beat King Kong Brody, who was counted out outside the ring April 3, 1981 – Kiel (att. 4983) *Ric Flair beat David Von Erich *Rufus R. Jones beat Dick Murdoch on DQ Jan. 22, 1982 – Kiel (att. 8450) *Harley Race beat David Von Erich *Kerry Von Erich beat Dick Murdoch by DQ Feb. 19, 1982 – Kiel (att. 11,093 sellout) *Dick the Bruiser won an 18-man Wrestle Royal, outlasting in order out Bob Brown, Ricky Romero, Greg Valentine, Von Raschke, Gene Lewis, Spike Huber and Roger Kirby together, Dick Murdoch, Bobo Brazil, Jerry Brown, Kerry Von Erich, Terry Funk, Jerry Valiant, Dewey Robertson, Andre the Giant and Crusher Blackwell together, and Ken Patera. *Andre the Giant and Terry Funk (sub for Dusty Rhodes) was ruled a draw against Harley Race and Crusher Blackwell when both teams were DQ May 14, 1982 – Kiel (att. 10,119) *Andre the Giant and Dick the Bruiser won from Dick Murdoch and Crusher Blackwell. 1-Murdoch beat Bruiser. 2-Andre beat Blackwell via DQ. 3-Bruiser beat Murdoch. Conclusion: Murdoch seemed to be a solid (outside of the disappointing houses with Bruno in the winter of '75/'76) but generally unspectacular draw in St. Louis. He only drew sellouts as part of star studded Battle Royales or tag team matches where he was clearly not the key person drawing the house. His best crowd was a near sellout of the Kiel Auditorium for the cage match blowoff to his feud with Dick The Bruiser.

Here's a breakdown of the number of voters in each category over the last six years: 2013 U.S. and Canada modern 353 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 215 voters, Japan 103 voters, Mexico 93 voters, Pacific Islands, Australia, New Zealand & Puerto Rico 143 voters, Europe 123 voters. 2012 U.S. and Canada modern 256 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 185 voters, Japan 98 voters, Mexico 78 voters, Pacific Islands, Australia, New Zealand & Puerto Rico 105 voters, Europe 116 voters. 2011 U.S. and Canada modern 228 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 156 voters, Japan 116 voters, Mexico 118 voters, Pacific Islands, Australia, New Zealand & Puerto Rico 111 voters, Europe 71 voters. 2010 U.S. and Canada modern 181 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 135 voters, Japan 115 voters, Mexico 75 voters, Europe 63 voters. 2009 U.S. and Canada modern 201 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 98 voters, Japan 98 voters, Mexico 75 voters, Europe 53 voters. 2008 U.S. and Canada modern 245 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 156 voters, Japan 81 voters, Mexico 123 voters. There's some interesting patterns here. You can see Mexico's electorate peaking in 2008 when Konnan was inducted and Japan's electorate peaking in 2010/2011 when Dr Death Steve Williams was on the ballot. The voter pool seemed to decline from 2008-2010 (maybe due to non-response or voters passing away), but has increased substantially since then, especially last year. Given non-response and some voters not voting in the U.S. and Canada modern category Dave must have sent well over 400 ballots last year.

Yeah, I was very familiar with his scrawl back in the day!

To add to Will's overview of Murdoch's career from 1968-1979: 1974 has Murdoch's shot at Baba's PWF Heavyweight title. Up to this point in history only top tier talent had gotten cracks at the championship (The Shiek twice, Abby five times, Pat O' Connor, Dory Jr. three times, Race twice, Fritz twice, Brisco, Kiniski, Pedro and Terry Funk). Title matches became much rarer from '75 onwards, so Dick only getting one shot isn't as bad as it might seem. 1975: Before the Open Championship League began where Murdoch was heavily protected, he reformed The Texas Outlaws with Dusty Rhodes, which saw them headline a dozen straight shows all over Japan including getting a shot at Baba and Tsuruta's NWA International Tag Team Title in Sapporo. Seems to be Dick's peak as a star in All Japan. 1979: Getting an NWA title shot in Japan against Harley and going to an hour long draw was a pretty big deal. Usually all the title shots went to Baba and Tsuruta. You have to go back to 1975 for another gaijin wrestler (Bobo Brazil) being put in that position.

I used to get my tapes off Glen Radford too.

I think Park has been hurt this year by the inclusion of a couple of overlooked trios on the ballot, who probably have stronger cases than he does, and leaving AAA, thus losing exposure. To me, he could do with a major mask vs. mask match to end his career on a high note, but that seems unlikely having burnt his bridges with both AAA and CMLL.

Actually Shamrock was going to be on the ballot in 2005, but was taken off the ballot with Don Frye (who almost got in the prior year) when Dave Meltzer decided to start an MMA HOF, which lasted one year, before someone asked him to knock it off. What's the story with this? I remember Meltzer doing his MMA Hall of Fame and about four guys got elected one year. Dave started on doing the write ups and bios, did one or two of them and it was never mentioned again. He didn't even finish on those who got elected. Apparently, he closed down his MMA HOF because someone else was going to set one up, but it's strange that he didn't reopen it when those ideas fell through.

Actually Shamrock was going to be on the ballot in 2005, but was taken off the ballot with Don Frye (who almost got in the prior year) when Dave Meltzer decided to start an MMA HOF, which lasted one year, before someone asked him to knock it off.

Dylan could have made the same point with Ken Shamrock and he was UFC's top star in the mid 1990s and drew a record buy rate and rating for his feud with Tito Ortiz in 2006.