cm funk

Is the national work by JCP out of bounds for Flair as NWA champ ? 88-89 is the period I'm thinking of. I don't understand the arguement for Brisco's inclusion, but will certainly listen. No one is throwing out hard numbers.. but if there's some boundaries.. I'm happy to try and collect numbers.. - yes, because the NWA was dead by 88-89, and it was all Crockett towns and Ted Turner owned shows. Maybe Flair went to Japan once or twice in those years, but..... the NWA and the territory system was dead and buried, it was the NWA title in name only - I mentioned Brisco because nobody had yet. He was a big draw. Definitely not the biggest, but I thought his name should be mentioned

Garvin is a fascinating discussion on it's own, but relevant to the topic of where the cutoff point for the NWA champ being what it used to be was, and I agree that 87 is the year. 84-86 the champ is still working towns for other promoters and there were still towns to work. In 86 Flair defended a lot in Florida, mostly against Luger but also Windham. In Continental in Bama/Knoxville wrestling Bob Armstrong a couple times, Puerto Rico, in Quebec for International against Martel, Central States, PPW in Hawaii, in the AWA against Hennig, he even made a trip to the Pacific North West. Crocket was in complete control of the title, but he was still sending the champ around to all the other promoters. In 85 he was still going to Mid South and Dallas before Watts and Fritz split fully from the NWA. By 87 Flair was rarely defending the belt outside of Crockett towns. As far as Garvin goes.....I can't even call him the worst booked champ because he was booked exactly for what he was......a transition champ from Flair to Flair because they needed a big draw for Starrcade that year as Vince had counter booked the first Survivor Series for the same night and they decided Flair chasing the belt was a bigger draw than him defending it. Also, before that, Crockett bought the UWF in April, and as the UWF was being folded into JCP Dusty wanted to put the belt on Rick Steiner at Starrcade who he was extremely high on as a way to kickstart the UWF invasion with a bang and got shot down by Flair and Crockett. So then the idea was a short term switcharoo with Flair. The thing with Garvin is, in a different era I could maybe see him as one of those short, disputed, unrecognized false finish-rematch champs in his hot town or city that the NWA did so many times in so many places, they could have done that with him in Montreal maybe.....but never anything more than that. The idea that a national promotion like the NWA back when all the promoters were involved and had voting rights and veto power on the belt on a guy who was only a big draw in 3 or 4 places .....that just never would have happened. But he was never meant to be a touring, drawing champion. He was a warm body. And according to Garvin himself the transitional champ role was offered to guys and turned down......he was not their first choice, but he was respected and trusted and he wasn't going to get the belt and take it to Vince which was definitely still a concern at that point, Flair liked him, and he'd drawn well with Flair in some key Crockett towns. I'm interested who the other choices were who either turned it down or were vetoed. I've never really heard that come out, and if it has I don't remember it.

My initial instinct is to say Lou Thesz, without question, but it's an interesting conversation to have Surprised Jack Brisco's name hasn't been mentioned yet. Not the biggest, but he was a big draw When I look at this subject and the history of the NWA title.....I look at touring champs and the guys who were most in demand around the horn by all the various promoters..... I can see the argument for Flair in the 80's.....but the business and the country was very different.......comparing Thesz and Flair's peak years as draws is almost apples and oranges I can see why Buddy Rogers is mentioned.....huge draw....huge star.....but not as NWA champ exactly. He was more of a rebel/renegade guy.....him and Pat O'Connor at Comiskey for the NWA belt was a record drawing crowd that stood for 20+ years.....but his time on top in the NWA was too short and fraught with difficulties to think of him in this conversation

Agreed. I'd be up for them to run a G1 style or Real World Tag Team style tourney on the Network in the same vein. It'll make me want to go to it and stay on it more than I already do. Definitely. I don't know if a Lethal Lottery/BattleBowl done by WWE in 2015 would be good......but it would be interesting and have me watching. A Japanese style tag tournament would be incredible and unlike anything WWE has booked in years bringing back KOTR, even if it was out of nowhere and kind of rushed and probably only happened due to Bryan being on the shelf, it gives me a bit of hope for the idea of "special events" that aren't PPVs being a thing they do more of on the Network

O

but realistically how long can Rusev's heel act go on? The anti-American thing only has so much mileage especially when it has already reached its logical conclusion by having him go up against the ultimate American hero in Cena. He doesn't really cheat or do anything all that heelish aside from the anti-American rhetoric. Once that gimmick runs out of steam he'll have nothing left to do so turning him face might be the only option. People see him as a legit badass and would easily get behind him in the same way American MMA fans got behind guys like Cro Cop and Fedor. Also, he and Lana have been getting cheered for a while now anyway. The fans Pavlovian boo the anti-American/pro-Russia bs, but they get pops for their entrance, and pops during the matches. This is just a symptom of current wrestling and the audience. If you are awesome as performers the crowd will turn you face. It's almost impossible to stay heel in the current environment. Especially not when the heel character is a dominant badass who kicks everyone's ass and impresses with feats of strength and athleticism. His heel character was based on cheap heat and being a monster asskicker. Without the cheap heat resonating he's just a monster asskicker, and monster asskickers eventually get cheered. This is not a new development, but it happens much faster these days. Brock the monster heel with Heyman the slimy jew lawyer became faces just by being them and being great. So yes, while Rusev was the best and strongest heel they had going, it was a Pyrrhic house of cards kind of heel heat that wasn't going to be sustainable over the long haul. They've surely botched things badly with this Cena program, and splitting him and Lana is a terrible idea, and I wouldn't have advocated an immediate face turn or anything like that. But I think stopping the Cena program at a temporary draw, getting away from the Russia v. USA stuff and evolving the Rusev character, building to Rusev v. Roman or Rusev v. Brock or Rusev v. The Authority would have been the smart play All is not lost, Rusev has been built up strong enough that he can be rehabilitated from the Cena program of death and the Lana turn tease......and I hold out hope that this is all just leading to Rusev & Lana coming out on top and stronger than ever.......even them turning their aggression towards The Authority post-Cena feud leading to Rusev tossing around Show/Kane and building something with Lana & Steph and Rusev v. HHH eventually.......but now I'm fantasy booking.....

I was thinking the same thing Cena winning at Mania was the right call. Cena as US Champ elevating it and elevating mid-card guys with competitive matches (which they've been doing with the open challenge) was the right call But the right call with Rusev was to end the program with Cena there at 1-1.....he proclaims he no longer cares about the US title, point him in a direction towards the world title.....and a rubber match with Cena miles down the line what they're doing now is awful and killing Rusev. Same thing they did with Cena and Wyatt last year. And Lana......it's so dumb to break her and Rusev up because the act is great and what shelf life does Lana have after the split? Lana and Rusev were starting to get cheered because the act is great and they're both great. That overpowered the jingoism of the act. Also, Lana is hot and sexy, so of course she's going to get "face pops". If anything, keep them together but tone down the "RUSSIA #1 PTWEEY USA BOO" aspect of it, and just let the reactions happen organically. The evil Russian heel act only has so much shelf life to it. They're dropping the ball hard with Rusev & Lana right now, just like they did with Bray and the Wyatt Family, just like they're doing now with Seth Rollins where they built up the Curb Stomp as the finisher of death for a year and then all of a sudden we're supposed to forget about it, forget about him curb stomping Brock and Roman, erase it from history, and some shitty ddt variation is his finisher now. The Curb Stomp as the out of nowhere killer finish is a huge part of Seth Rollins' act. It was specifically highlighted twice at WM with Orton reversing it into an RKO and Seth cashing in using it to steal the title. Now he just stops doing the move? It's absurd I enjoy watching WWE, but sometimes this stuff can be maddening

MOTN: tag team titles Very close runner up: LMS Worst match: Russian Chain Match. Terrible. That's 3 strong PPV singles matches in a row from Roman, all very different, and the backlash to him not being Bryan seems to have finally subsided. The buildup to WM once they got their shit together and the match itself with Brock went a long way to rehab him. A match like this just cements it. Kudos to Big Show. I know a lot of people here don't like him and/or are sick of him, but you have to give him props for his effort here. Sheamus/Ziggler was really good and I liked the flash pin rollup, but I thought it needed more time as someone earlier noted. Not like the show was pressed for time. The whole 'Kiss Me Arse' stip was dumb, but at least Sheamus comes out of it looking like a real bastard rest of the card was just kind of there. nothing too bad, nothing too great. re: the bottles of H2O and stuff under the ring, it's always there, in a tub of ice. It's for the ring crew/production people/ringside people etc. who shuffle around during the backstage stuff and video packages (example tonight the long Cena/Rusev package crew was down setting up the corner lights). It's just one of those things they always have there and have had for years. They also have a tub back behind the time keeper/ring announcer. Sometimes in hardcore type matches you'll see someone grab a water bottle from under the ring, loosen the cap, and whack someone in the head with it a more interesting question on a related topic, I always wonder about the announcers having to piss during a show. I'm sure they're able to sneak to the designated nearest bathroom if they need to, but I wonder if they don't sometimes piss in a bottle under the desk when the lights are dimmed.

tag title: I hate that the tag belts have been stuck on the pre-show every single show this year, but the one advantage is they get as much time as they want and a hot crowd for a hot opener. they'd be insane to take the belts off of Kidd/Cesaro yet. Now that New Day are heels they're getting actual good heat, not go away heat, and the act works so much better (Woods has been fantastic) but they don't need the belts. I've gotta enjoy Kidd/Cesaro while it lasts, because knowing WWE they'll drop the belts and split and feud much sooner than later street fight: Ambrose HAS to win here. Should be a really fun match and both guys will be super over with that crowd divas title: Nikki has had the belt for a long time and it looks like they might be turning the Bellas face, so I'd give Naomi the win here to shake up the division LMS: Reigns has a strong, convincing win. I think they'll have him be the first guy to get up from the KO punch, and I hope he wins "clean" with the Superman punch and it's not one of those wacky "bury the guy so he can't get up" finishes they've overdone with Cena. Expect a vehicle spot of some sort based on the buildup Kiss My Arse: exactly what OP predicted. Sheamus wins, Ziggler is knocked out and Sheamus sticks his ass in his face, allowing Dolph to save face no pun intended IC title: I don't expect Bryan to wrestle. If that is the case, I'd hold the title up in a ladder match and hot shot it on to Neville. Barrett is great but he has no momentum and it would be a step back for the belt. Would instantly make Neville, and if he drops it back to Bryan after a great match and they shake hands after it just further makes him. If Bryan's out for a while have Sheamus beat Neville in a month or so Chain match: Cena wins, should be a great match Cage match: Rollins wins. I could see Kane play it straight and something screwy happening with a new Authority member or something. I don't expect this to be the blowoff so whatever the finish is will leave doubt

ahhhhh......shows how much I watch ROH these days

Not gonna listen to this at the moment, but I'm curious. Piledriver? Eating dives?

They do split tours in Europe. You probably just heard the ad for one crews shows, and Cena and Bryan are on the other one It's more odd that Sheamus, Barrett, Cesaro or Neville weren't mentioned Where in Europe are these shows?

I liked Striker his first 6-9 months or so on ECW because he was totally different and not another WWE produced talking head. He was getting away with all sorts of stuff and it was clear Vince/Steph/whoever wasn't paying any attention to ECW at the time. He was calling moves by their actual names and giving backstory/credit to the history of the move. I still remember a random match where he loaded his colour with as many Smiths and Morrisey references as possible and it was so ridiculous and 'inside baseball' and I was just cracking up at how absurd and random it was. I don't remember who the PBP guy was, Todd Grisham I think, and he was trying to call it straight and finally broke and made one of his own and started laughing But then somebody wizened up to his schtick and he turned into the "smarky WWE cliche, catchphrase spitting robot" he became and he's generally been terrible ever since. I remember a note in the Observer back then that was basically (paraphrased) "Vince finally heard Striker's commentary and blew a gasket". There is a clear delineation between early ECW Striker and heavily produced beat down to conform Striker. Also, when he won, it was slim pickings commentary wise. He was the best of a bad bunch. I remember Dave liking him back then too. But between WWE beating his originality out of him and the act wearing thin......it is crazy to think he was actually good for a stretch compared to the years of him being intolerable since tbf....I don't hate him on Lucha Underground.....but he says some cringe worthy bad stuff. He wasn't bad with JR on the Tokyo Dome show either......but he needs to drop the "I'M MARKING OUT" uber smark schtick

Lucha Dragons and New Day was a lot of fun and the best match on the show IMO Ambrose and Harper was entertaining but just a brawling setup to the street fight at the PPV Seth and Dolph was fine but nothing we haven't seen before with those two

Well, on RAW tonight they had 'breaking news' that Bryan vs. Barrett is still scheduled but may not happen due to Bryan's health, and Bryan wasn't on the show at all welp

AJ Styles vs. Adam Cole this is what F4W/WON says earlier they'd listed the whole card as official

He's been down on the intergender stuff and Matt Striker really bugs him, but other than that he seems to like LU. He's rated a lot of matches highly, praised a lot of the wrestlers, praised their backstage stuff and vignettes as the best going anywhere right now, and generally seems to enjoy the product

They announced the Philly ROH/NJPW card main event of of The Briscoes vs. Nakamura/Okada sounds like a must see I also like the 'booker vs. booker' opener of Delirious vs. Gedo for the novelty of it Hope these shows are being taped

I pretty much just watch RAW and NXT these days, I'm way behind on Lucha Underground, I don't watch ROH, my NJPW viewing is spotty, and while I know a lot of the big indy names and have seen clips of a lot of them online, I'm pretty out of touch with the indy scene. But, I want to play this game Current favorite wrestler to watch: Tyson Kidd Last fun match you saw: I enjoyed Ziggler and Neville on RAW Wrestler you want to see more of: hmmmmm.....Heath Slater Last live show attended (if applicable/different from last time you answered): I haven't been to a show in about 10 years Match you're most looking forward to watching: I'd love to see that Daniel Bryan and Nakamura match which is never going to happen. When I get caught up on Lucha Underground I'm looking forward to the Rumble and Casket matches Last fun interview/promo you saw: Daniel Bryan and Kane backstage at RAW was pretty fun Last interesting thing you read about wrestling: this thread? Last worthwhile podcast you listened to: Listening to B&V right now so I guess that. HBK on The Ross Report was really good I thought. Looking forward to listening to Bix's show with Doug Gilbert later Most fun you've had watching wrestling lately: WM And, in a sad attempt to spruce things up, two new ones: Favorite recent post on this board: probably something I wrote Favorite thing about the wrestling landscape in the past three months (if you live in the past, then go with your past three months of time-traveling): NXT crossing over the the general WWE audience, drawing big houses on the road, NXT chants on WWE shows.......pretty much everything about NXT lately *EDIT to add to the last one, The Young Bucks and Dave Meltzer meeting

seriously Dave wrote some embarrassingly bad stuff in the 80's, when he was younger, and the OBSERVOR was more of a fanzine than what it became, the "Paper of Record" of the wrestling business. Junkfood Dog, Anabolic Warrior, etc. etc. We all say and do stupid things when we're young. Dave was pretty angry about the WWF and the death of the territory system/birth of sports entertainment at that time, and it came across in his writing, opinions and ratings If Todd picking funny and interesting bits from old newsletters, and poking a bit of fun at Dave......there was nothing malicious and mean spirited about it......Alvarez was right there too cackling like a hyena and "WOW" at some of the stuff Dave said back then.......if this really is the reason or part of the reason Todd is gone that's just weird to me, and slightly unbelievable

The doctor in Denver who "fixed" him was one of Carson Palmer's doctors, recommended to him by one of the doctors he was seeing in AZ. Bryan went to a half dozen different doctors and got 2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions trying to avoid life/career altering invasive surgery

Even with all the budget cuts and scaled back roster and paying a lot of talent peanuts, younger guys who are ok making no money because it's an opportunity, it's a platform, it's exposure.......is anyone surprised that TNA is still bleeding money and can't pay their talent? there were stories during that lame duck period between the Spike contract running out and them trying to find a new TV deal that half the roster was way behind on pay, and the production people and behind the scenes workers weren't getting paid either. Dixie had to have a 'rally the troops' meeting to try and convince people that things would get better soon It really is amazing that TNA is still around. They've been bleeding money for years, and even at their best they broke even. If it wasn't for Panda and Spike pumping money into the company they'd already be dead. It's just not a profitable operation. Their PPV business is completely dead, merch and DVDs have been a loser for years, house show business is dead, and even running in NYC or over in the UK where they get some decent crowds, they end up losing money on the deal. They don't generate ad revenue. Think about all the bullshit sponsor deals they had over the years? What was Destination America expecting? It's a bullshit cable channel that nobody watches. TNA is their highest rated show but they're already looking to dump them. Says it all

I really enjoy the Bryan and Todd shows lately. I used to not care for the guy but he's loosened up a bit and is much better than he used to be I don't know what drama is going on here, and don't really care, but I would miss the Figure 4 Daily shows with Todd. The OBSERVOR stuff is great Did he manage to piss off Meltzer? Pissing off Dave is a major no-no

Best example of this to me is HBK/HHH at SummerSlam 02. I was a huge HBK fan and was so psyched for his comeback match after 4+ years out of the ring and all the aborted comebacks, and I was marking out and on the edge of my seat for the whole thing.......but holy shit that match doesn't hold up at all. It's pretty awful. I've rewatched it a few times and I'm like "how did I ever think this was good?" If you take it out of the moment and the time it sucks. HHH and Shawn had so many matches in that 02-03 period and there isn't a single one of them that I would ever want to see again. They range from ok to mediocre to downright boring