khawk20

Bruiser's WWA would be my guess.

Verne and Greg too, for that matter. Would you throw Billy Robinson in that AWA group as well? I probably would, but a think a lot of people would think "Japan" as much as the AWA, since so much of what we have seen in terms of big matches of his come from there.

Verne and Greg too, for that matter.

I know it aired, along with the rest of the card, on WWE ClassicsonDemand, I have it on my list...for some reason I can't find the discs, though, they aren't where they're supposed to be.

Well, got me to comment so I guess that worked. I still like Valentine as a top pick.

My opinion on these two: Guys I didn't list above who are given entries in Greg Oliver and Steven Johnson's The Heels and who were active 76-81 Mad Dog Vachon--became a face in early 1979. Legendary heel before that but his impact was waning in North America somewhat. Pat Patterson--could be a contender. A strong contender.

I guess while I'm at it... AWA Nick Bockwinkel--yep. George Steele--lol in the AWA section at least... Bobby Heenan--AWA and Georgia, so yep. Ken Patera--not sure he was in the AWA between 76 and 81, save for the very end of 1981, when he just got there. Da Crusher--straight face between 76 and 81, so no. Dick the Bruiser--also a straight-up face in this time frame. Crusher Blackwell--mid-card heel in the WWF, but came on as the go-to heel in the AWA upon his arrival in 1980. I'd argue his impact in the time frame wasn't what it was from 80-86 or so, but I guess he counts somewhat. ...did you just throw these names up or did you research them before making your list? Just curious.

George Steele in the AWA portion? Also I'd include Valentine in the WWF section, possibly ahead of the Mid Atlantic one if you're only putting them in once, as he had two runs in the timeframe in the WWF, 1979 and in 1981, with big programs against Backlund both times.

Valentine and Bockwinkel are the two that immediately came to mind, as noted above by Loq. Should Abdullah perhaps be included? His travelling act either helps or hurts him, plus all the time he may have spent in Japan in that time frame.

One six man tag from MSG where they face each other is all I can think of that's out there at the moment. They don't wrestle in the footage shown. It's roughly 2 minutes of highlights. I'd have to check to see if Brody and Andre in fact did hook up again, but that match aired on WWE Classics on Demand, along with the rest of the card, so more than highlights have aired.

Can someone that was a heel in 1976 and turned face before 1981 be nominated, or does it need to be someone that was a heel through the whole run?

One six man tag from MSG where they face each other is all I can think of that's out there at the moment.

High Flyers vs. Santana & Martel from 8/29/82 would be an example I would offer as to what a very rare no-turn, no heel-tactics babyface matchup can look like (AWA or otherwise).

There is video of Ted as a face on WWF cards in Houston before he turned into the Million Dollar Man. From my lists: 3342 Landy’s WWF House shows: Houston 5/15/87 1 hour VG/EX- Local Promos, Young Stallions vs. The Shadows, Fabulous Moolah (Ladies Champ) vs. Angie Minelli, Iron Mike Sharpe vs. Sam Houston, Ted DiBiase announces he’s signed with The WWF, DiBiase confrontation with One Man Gang and Slick, Hacksaw Duggan vs. Nicolai Volkoff, Rick Steamboat (WWF IC Champ) vs. Randy Savage. The show after that, Ted teamed with Sam Houston vs. OMG and..I'm blanking on the partner. I have it on my newer list.

Some of the talent that appeared at Wrestlerock was piggybacked over from the Crockett Cup so that had to have been a factor. The AWA roster was pretty thin at that point, at least when considering running a Supercard. It's true about the AWA numbers dipping a lot in the summer, for the most part. In places like Minnesota and Winnipeg, there is only so much decent outdoor weather per year, and people spent it utside, camping, hunting, fishing, whatever. I know Winnipeg numbers dipped a ton every year in the summer months, as did the attendance at the monthly Civic Center shows. Late August would be when the weather began to change into fall, and Verne geared his programs to begin in earnest around that time. The Blackwell-Brody feud, for example, kicked off at the beginning of June in 1984 at the big St. Paul Battleroyal, and Blackwell remained "injured" until the end of September. Brody, meanwhile, filled his time feuding with Jim Brunzell and Tony Atlas. In Winnipeg, Brody and Abby were around in April and May of that year (notably squashing the Baron and The Crusher in a non-title, no dq match), and then Brody was off the cards up there until November when he met Blackwell in their Winnipeg grudge return bout. The Winnipeg April and May shows drew about 2600 and 1900, respectively, down from the usual 3500 - 4000 range. The numbers climbed back into and above the 3500-4000 range in the fall once again. St. Paul only ran a July show after the Battleroyal which drew respectably as it had Martel's first title defense against Bockwinkel on it (around 6500 IIRC), before running two shows in September, the first of which only drew 3000 for Martel-Rheingans and a Fabs-Heenan family Weasel suit match on Bobby's farewell tour of the area. Brody and Blackwell headlined the September 30th card 3 weeks later and did a much better number, before sellouts in October (Blackwell-Brody death match), November (Thanksgiving, LOD vs. Blackwell-Bundy) and December (LOD-Fabs, Martel-Garvin) returned the area to "normal" in terms of interest and attendance. Something that should have been a tell-tale sign that things were going south to Verne was after the usual summer blahs in 1985 (1500-2000 a show in the summer, preceded by the 14000+ Star Cage show in April), the numbers never really rebounded from that range, with the exception of the 1985 Fall Battleroyal show, which saw the AWA and WWF go head to head with attendance being about even but still pretty high (10000+ at both shows). After that, they struggled. Without looking I know the shows were mostly below 3000, and the exceptions were not very much above that, and they never got it back. Hansen as champ, even programmed with incoming superhero Sgt. Slaughter, couldn't draw in St. Paul. Given the newness of Slaughter that was a VERY bad sign. Winnipeg in 1985 followed the usual trend, holding a steady 3500+ attendance in the winter and spring, dipping in the summer, and climbing back up in the fall, and even beyond their usual numbers. The November, December, and Jaunary 1986 shows in Winnipeg all had above-average attendance. Vince getting their TV after the 1/86 show and taking over the Winnipeg arena was IMO a pretty substantial blow to the company as Winnipeg may have been their most viable market at that point. ....and, as I noted in the Territories thread, Vince never ran Winnipeg regularly and basically killed off the town because the local production the AWA did really got the fans to buy into the local storylines better than in most places. Their bouts and feuds were often unique, and the generic WWF material on their TV and occasionally at their arena did not appeal to the populace. So yeah, AWA summer bad, AWA Spring-fall-winter good.

In-ring instincts is something that I remember coming up a lot more among the wrestlers that talk about him, which, for those guys, would be something at least equal to if not above athleticism, I think.

The Ultimate Warrior-Papa Shango voodoo angle made me turn off TV wrestling for several years, and I was the last guy that I ever thought that could happen to.

Add Vince winning a town as another form of killing it. As Vince took over in the Midwest from Verne, there were instances of markets with monthly shows with local angles and interviews being turned into markets with generic TV and maybe 3-4 house shows a year (sometimes less), with cookie cutter matches that went around the horn. Winnipeg is the example closest to me and the first one that I always think of. Vince killed it for wrestling after January of 1986 quickly. It was a case of Vince wanting it badly to hurt Verne and the AWA, but once he had it he didn't seem to care about sustaining it and it's fan base. The Twin Cities were similar to this, not the same but with a similar effect as Vince slowly pushed Verne out through the 80's.

I type mine out and put them in specific Word files...a "big" list, divided in to several categories, and several individual category listings. Example: 4413 WWE 24/7: WWWF Champ. TV October 15th, 1977 40 min EX- Butcher Vachon vs. Bob Markus, Mil Mascaras vs. Johnny Rodz, Stan Stasiak vs. Johnny Rivera, The Golden Terror vs. Lenny Hurst, Bob Backlund vs. Bill Swift, Chief Jay Strongbow & Peter Maivia vs. Ali Baba & Baron Mikel Scicluna. I have also started an Excel list that is just disc number and title, but it will take a long time to finish it as I did not do this from the start. It's more of a spare time project.

One big difference is sound quality. If my TV is on an HD channel at, say 15, if I watch the same show on an SD channel I have to crank the volume up to at least 25 to get the same levels...and it's not as good even then. And honestly I find a difference in watching footage on an HD channel even if it was produced before HD was around.