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Everything posted by jdw
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How much work and time does a great or perfect match need?
jdw replied to GOTNW's topic in Pro Wrestling
As far as different takes, Tabe has been around forever. He can confirm that his thoughts on the WrestleWar post match aren't new. They're probably as old as Jewett being one of the first to say the WrestleWar match itself was wildly overrated, though my recollection is that Frank liked the post match for the reasons Tabe didn't. -
How much work and time does a great or perfect match need?
jdw replied to GOTNW's topic in Pro Wrestling
Different match. Tabe is talking about WrestleWar, which was Flair-Steamer + Flair-Funk Post Match Pile Driver: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/35447-how-important-is-the-finish-in-giving-a-match-five-stars/?p=5767224 I was talking about the Flair-Funk at the Bash, which had the Flair & Sting vs Funk & Muta + Flair Juice & Muta Spay Mic Spot as the post match. While that match was (predictably) referenced in the thread, it's not the one Tabe did the *****/* comment about. -
How much work and time does a great or perfect match need?
jdw replied to GOTNW's topic in Pro Wrestling
It's been expanded for decades. Hence the Flair vs Funk Bash match reference, which was on we always use to talk about when the subject came up: the post match was frankly better than the match and a big reason (mentioned or not mentioned) that some folks rated it really high. -
How much work and time does a great or perfect match need?
jdw replied to GOTNW's topic in Pro Wrestling
On the originally question... hard to know. I've tended to use the Windham vs Pillman at SuperBrawl as an example of a terrific short match. That went 6:08. Perfect? Great? I don't know... never was super comfy with applying it to matches that short, or applying "MOTYC" to it. But it was awfully good. The Fans vs Midnights from Clash 1 was 10:15. That's a terrific match. I think when you block out what they do, how they work a "match" into what's really a short amount of time for them, and by "match" I'm not meaning just tossing a ton of shit into it. Sure, there's a ton of shit tossed into it, but they also work a very good FIP section in there. It's like a truncated version of their longer matches, with extra shit tossed on, and some of that shit is GREAT FUCKING SHIT~! like the Table. It's really terrific for what it is. Great? Perhaps. MOTYC? It finished well in that race. Perfect? Pretty much for what they needed to do and were trying to do. So it's a hard question. Mostly a personal one on what the viewer likes. -
How much work and time does a great or perfect match need?
jdw replied to GOTNW's topic in Pro Wrestling
Their two matches in 1979 were under 20: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=102403 http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=41366 They had a lot of other entrances, introductions, pre-match, post-match and what not, so the Youtube video count might have been up around 30. Always hard on what to count and what not to count. We like to give credit for stuff like the Flair & Sting vs Funk & Muta brawl after the Bash match, and frankly for Flair's great blood & Muta-spay covered speach as well. But Hogan gets no credit for the Posing Routine, or for kicking the shit out of the heel and heel manager after matches. The haircut or mask removal after a lucha match gets credit, but do we give credit to the post-match of El Clasico? I don't have a great answer to that. It does seem fair to give Hogan credit for the Posing Routine's ability to fire up and satisfy the crowd (as in monster fucking pop) if we give it to others. We probably can do that while also admitting that we personally don't give two shits for the Posing Routine and it doesn't work for us. -
[1983-10-23-GCW-Last Battle of Atlanta] Tommy Rich vs Buzz Sawyer
jdw replied to soup23's topic in October 1983
It is amazing that this turned up and in the shape that it's in. It's was one of those iconic matches for a lot of us who checked out the wrestling mags in the 80s before moving onto sheets / online - when you thought of Blood Feuds and Epic Matches, the pictures made you think this was one of the must see matches. Really look forward to seeing it. -
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Hundreds of them. The 05/19/63 Destroyer vs Rikidozan (Riki jobs in the 3rd fall to the figure four) and 05/24/63 Destroyer vs Rikidozan (DKO bloodbath that drew the insane "70 million" viewership). I'm not certain if the first one was on TV. Others: 02/28/66 NWA Int'l Title: Giant Baba vs Lou Thesz (21:13, 2:45, 0:51) Lou had just dropped the NWA Title and came over to put over Baba shortly after Baba won the Int'l title. Did it clean with a backdrop suplex. I've talked about the Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki vs Wilbur Snyder & Danny Hodge series in 1969: http://www.puroresu.com/jwa/results/jwa196901newyear.html 12/27/68 Tokyo - Kuramae Kokugikan (Friday) (First show of the new year) Michiaki Yoshimura (15min limit draw) Danny Hodge Antonio Inoki (15min limit draw) Wilbur Snyder Giant Baba (5:50 pin) Tom Jones 01/03/69 Tokyo - Kuramae Kokugikan (Friday) (First show of the new year) NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki (1-1) Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder 1: Snyder (15:46 pin) Baba 2: Baba (17:53 pin) Snyder 3: (60min time limit) 01/09/69 Hiroshima - Pref. Gym (Thursday) NWA Int'l Tag Title: Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder def Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki (title change) 1: Hodge (18:08 pin) Inoki 2: Inoki (4:34 abdominal stretch) Hodge 3: Snyder (3:45 pin) Baba 01/11/69 Osaka - Pref. Gym (Saturday) Antonio Inoki DCOR Danny Hodge (14:25) NWA Int'l Title: Giant Baba (2-1) Wilbur Snyder 1: Baba (16:31 DQ) 2: Snyder (3:27 pin) 3: Baba (3:27 pin) 01/31/69 Tokyo - Korakuen Hall (Friday) Wilbur Snyder (2-1) Antonio Inoki 1: Snyder (11:03 pin) 2: Inoki (1:40 abdominal stretch) 3: Snyder (9:50 DQ) 02/04/69 Sapporo - Nakajima Sports Center (Tuesday) NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki (2-1) Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder (title change) 1: Baba & Inoki (23:59 DQ) 2: Snyder (1:03 pin) Baba 3: Baba (2:59 abdominal stretch) Snyder 02/11/69 Akita - Pref. Gym (Tuesday) (final card of the Series) NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki* (2-1) Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder 1: Snyder (21:32 pin) Inoki 2: Inoki (3:25 COR) Snyder 3: Inoki (3:42 octopus hold) Snyder I would think that a good deal of that was taped and/or live. It would be the best shot of seeing Snyder and Hodge as workers, especially if there were several of them to comp. Some nice, long matches there and something they thought was decent enough to run so often. I don't recall any tag match up for the belts getting worked over like that in the 60s.
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Don't know if anyone had mentioned this. I just found out when Yohe mentioned it to me. Pro wrestling writer Scott Williams passes away at 49: http://www.f4wonline.com/news/wrestling-writer-scott-williams-passes-away-49-218946 A lot of us knew him on various boards as "Loaded Glove". One of those guys that you could have strong differences with depending on some topic, but you could still come away viewing him as one of the good guys online. 49 is too damn young.
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Basketball and hockey ignore the issue. Every other sport that has taken the issue seriously has had MVP/HOF/World Champion level folks get caught. That OJ Mayo remains the "biggest" hoops star ever to get busted is telling on how much hoops gives a crap about the issue. The NFL, as someone pointed out, accepts it as the cost of doing business. They also accept that they have to "test" as the price of looking like they care. So they half ass it. There's more PED in the NFL (and on down the football food chain) than there was on the old East German Swim Team. They just don't care about really cleaning it up. Nor do fans of those sports, for that matter.
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I followed up on this and he said that he couldn't afford an observer sub till 2000. Let's make this easier: I will retract my single apportioning of blame to Meltzer, let's just say the lines of influence are too hard to untangle, and instead let's give the blame to every single person who contibuted to the rspw FAQ. In a way that means jdw is in some way responsible for smarky crowds, which seems about right. Smarky crowds existed before I got online and before I started writing for the Torch, both of which happened in 1996. It's not hard to find a specific smarky crowd prior to that. Jesse pretty much nails it.
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He and Lex were the top two babyfaces in JCP/WCW in 1988. Jake wasn't one of the top two faces or heels in the WWF in 1986. Heck, we'd have to try to figure out when he was at that level in the WWF for any sustained period like Sting became in 1988. If you read on you'll see I meant 87 rather than 88. I was specifically thinking of the period when he got that big reaction during the 6-man. Some of us remember what happened *right after* that six-man tag: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/jcp87.htm At the very next Worldwide taping less than week later.
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I love the Matsunaga Brothers being a 10 on the "Money" scale.
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Kobashi in 1992 got into his first Budokan Main Event, opposite the biggest star in the company and paired with the biggest babyface of the entire decade for the company. This was four years after he debuted. Any ideas of how long it was after their debuts that Misawa and Kawada got their first Budokan Main Event? Or when Kawada got his first that *wasn't* an accident like the final match of 1988? Kobashi got a hell of a push for his age and standing in 1992 and 1993. He main evented two of the six Budokan's in 1993, and was in the semi in two of the others with high profile singles matches that spotlighted him more than his opponents. He was a contender in 1994. He wasn't in 1993, where he was getting elevated up into being Misawa partner and getting the tag titles. Kobashi's first TC was in 1994, six years after his debut. Mutoh debuted in 1984, about three and a half years before Kobashi. Mutoh's first IWGP challenge was in 1992, 8 years after his debut. Chono got his first IWGP challenge in May 1991, more than six years after his debut. Sasaki debuted in 1986. His first IWGP challenge was at the end of 1993, seven years after his debut. Misawa debuted in 1981. He didn't challenge for the promotion's top title (Int'l or Triple Crown) until 1990. Kawada debuted in 1982. His first challenge of the top title was in 1991. So who got challenges quicker than Kobashi? Days 1672 Taue 1696 Hashimoto (tourney final) / 1846 (first IWGP challenge) 2381 Kobashi 2429 Chono 2781 Mutoh 2857 Sasaki 3262 Misawa 3307 Kawada Well... Basically Hash, who was famous for getting an early push ahead of his generation. And of course Taue, who got it as a bone because his direct peer and rival (Kawada) had just pulled his second. Taue needed it to keep up with his rival, and both of them were ahead of Kobashi in the pecking order. One can say that some of those people who took longer to get their first title shot weren't as over as Kobashi. Sure, Sasaki wasn't, though he was Choshu's boy and it's saying something that Choshu made him wait longer than Baba made Sasaki wait. Even more telling that Baba put the belt on Kobashi quicker than Choshu put it on his boy: 3071 Kobashi 4214 Sasaki It took Kobashi three less years to get the belt. What the hell, here's how many days from debut that it took those guys to win their promotion's top prize for the first time: 2872 Mutoh 3065 Taue 3071 Kobashi 3306 Hashimoto 4019 Misawa 4214 Sasaki 4401 Kawada 5055 Chono (IWGP) The story always was that Mutoh won his title "early" because Chono just got the NWA title and Misawa was highly likely to get the TC later in the month. Choshu beating Baba to the punch. Anyway, other than Mutoh's odd win, and again Taue as senior to Kobashi getting the first bit at the TC before being the one to put over Kobashi, it's pretty clear that other bookers went as long in putting over top guys as Baba did with Kobashi. No, there is no special rule. But I walked through this several years ago (or was it a decade and a half ago) when people claimed Kobashi was slow in getting the push. He actually was *faster* than the majority of his peers. The only one who was consistently quicker was his fellow Baba-mate, Taue. I'd be happy if people want to bag on Baba pushing Taue too hard and quick.
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He and Lex were the top two babyfaces in JCP/WCW in 1988. Jake wasn't one of the top two faces or heels in the WWF in 1986. Heck, we'd have to try to figure out when he was at that level in the WWF for any sustained period like Sting became in 1988.
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That would be an upper mid-card match in Kikuchi's hometown. Kawada got heat in his All Asia matches in 1988 and 1989. Look up when he got his first TC title challenge. Or look at the spunky heat Mutoh got in the Summer Night Fever match in 1987. He didn't get an IWGP Title match until *1992*. Grant, he was in the US for a chunk of that time. But he started his second run with the IWGP Tag title in April 1990, had that great heat in the title change in November of that year, had the great heat against Vader and Chono the following August... and still had to wait until May 1992 to get his first title shot. And Mutoh was a much bigger star in 1990-92 than Kobashi was. I think people are projecting where Kobashi was in May 1992. He was here: Jumbo Hansen Misawa Gordy Williams Kawada Taue Kobashi He was 8th in the company. He was 3rd on his own *team*. His lead partner (Misawa) had all of 3 challenges by that point in the 4 years the title existed. Misawa lead partner (Kawada) just got his first challenge the prior October. Taue hadn't gotten his first challenge year, and he was Jumbo's lead partner. All Japan's business was hot in 1992-94 as it had been in 1990-91. They would just start the Misawa-Kawada rivalry for the TC later that year at the Anniversary Show, at a point when those two hadn't even broken up their team. Misawa-Kawada was hot through 1994, and didn't really get played out until the end of the following year. At that point Kobashi was already pushed up into the TC mix, and was effectively #4 in the promotion as Hansen was moved off to the side, Gordy OD'd and Williams had the Narita Nightmare.
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Kobashi beat Hansen in 1994 and was a challenger for the TC in 1994. So we blow off Misawa-Kawada which sold out Budokan every time in 1992-94, and instead jump Kobashi over Kawada to be Misawa's rival... despite Kobashi never having beaten Kawada ever at that time and Kawada being very hot as Misawa's rival in 1993-94, while Kobashi was perfect as Misawa's new partner.
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Misawa was hotter than Kobashi at the time. 1992-93 were used to give Misawa the TC for the first time, and then after Jumbo went out, to establish Misawa as the Ace and Kawada as his top rival. Considering that was doing great business, jumping Kobashi up to challenge Misawa for the TC in 1992-93 when Misawa-Kawada was first starting is borderline insane. FWIW, he did go over Gordy in 1993 before Gordy overdosed.
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Where's JDW when you need him. Didn't even know this nonsensical thread existed until someone pointed it out to me in PM.
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Actually, the original FAQ was the RSP-W FAQ put together by all sorts of people contributing answers to it. Some got their info from Dave, others got stuff from elsewhere. SKeith just eventually took it over from Dom, who started it. When I look at Section 0.1, it's not something Dave would ever sit down and write. Much of it is exactly the type of conversations that we posters on RSP-W would have all the time. Even the big 0.1.18 by Herb Kunze isn't something that Dave would ever write out. He couldn't be bothered with thinking like that. Doesn't mean Dave didn't have thoughts like that, just that he didn't write them down... frankly didn't even talk much about them. I don't recall ever talking about "Transitions" with Dave because it's not something he'd do. On the other hand, when watching a tape with Yohe and Hoback, I'd hit the rewind on the remote to re-watch a great transitions and tell them what was popping me.