jdw

I missed that part about athletic women. I've always been attracted to athletic women from as early as I can remember. Perhaps that's a 70s things, growing up with Title IX, King-Riggs and the massive explosion girls playing sports and being much more active. Back them, give me a girl who could hold up her end of a mixed double pairing in tennis, or playing some mixed volleyball, or doing some co-ed softball, or the boys soccer team splitting up with the girls team to scrimage together... athletic girls fucking ruled, and were as hot any other girls in school. Is any of that still in me at the age of 44? The lady in my life for the past 14 years is a black belt and could kick the living shit out of me if I was a complete dick. This is the problem with being too general. All women, and all men, don't fit so nicely into single boxes. You may be freaked out by athletic women and confused by how they make you feel, but there are plenty of men who don't have a problem with them, or are actually attracted to athletic women. This of course leaves out body building women, as I've never thought of body building, male or female, being athletic. Again a 70s things: us athletes played sports, and what Arnold and Lou did wasn't sports to us. John

The two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Understood. In this case... I don't think so. John

If you saw a certain Ed Norton/Brad Pitt movie, then you would know what Mr. Loaf looks like. John

Nah... WP/RE is just this strange. The posters here have been in threads with him before where he's been like this and not trolling. John

Seriously? More men would rather have Serena Williams than the babe in Transformers? Do you have some polling that shows that? Because I'm pretty sure the polling I've seen shows Ms. Transformers way high and Serena not even rating anymore. Let's not even get into the other "gene" aspects of Ms Transformers vs say the intelligence genes of some homely but reasonably athletic women who graduated from Harvard magnum. When people check out the Girls of the Ivy League spread, are they checking out those GPA's for potential mates, or checking out the hooters and thinking about who they'd simply like to bang? Okay... John

Kate Moss vs Lindsay Davenport Hell, most all Super Models vs Lindsay Davenport. Super Models vs WNBA players? John

On this topic? Oh... I'm extremely open minded on human sexuality and human relationships, especially those that differ from mine just as mine differ from others. I'm pretty confident that I've seen, experianced, come in contact with and dealt with plenty of "reality" that doesn't fit into the four corners of your nice boxes. On this topic, I'm far removed from closed minded. And hardly alone given the posts in the thread. John

Add polyamorous to the list as well: Polyamorous There are a lot of women who aren't programed to look for the alpha male, and instead are the alpha female in various relationships. That doesn't mean alpha female in a Sub-Dom relationship (which is another thing that screws up WP's programing concept), but instead as the primary female to various males. There are even plenty of Mono/Poly relationships where it's the male who is monogamous and the female is poly. As SLL says, we are so far removed from our base animal instincts. When 10% of the population is LGBT, lord knows how poly women (which much like homosexuality is very common for people to repress as "not normal"), lord knows how many men who are Subs, and lord knows how many men and women who don't want to have kids (i.e. that seed planting stuff), the notion that *all* men and *all* women are programmed in the same way is... Rocks in the fucking head. It's a big world out there beyond the bubble you live in. That we all live in. Projecting beyond the bubble runs quickly into that don't fit so well into what we think we "know". John

What Bix said. It wasn't huge, huge, huge off the charts numbers. But it was very clear the attendance started going up at that point and not by an insignificant amount. John

Sad I thought you had to be a Neilsen reporter for Neilsen to use/obtain your data. I wasn't aware that all of my DVR viewing is counted by Neilsen. John

I'm guessing you haven't known a lot of women in your life. John

Konnan bio in this week's WON, so the Dr. Death bio can be treated as possibly happening down the road. John

I would have been cautious about how I handled some of them. Hogan & Nash & Hall proved to be posion in WCW, which was something that Bruce was onto in that early column he did about how they were destroying the babyface side. I don't think I would have wanted to put them over. Frankly... I never would have used the "nWo" simply to make sure that I wouldn't use Hall & Nash. Hogan, on the other hand, is someone I would use. Fans would have liked to see him against Rock and Austin. Obviously Goldberg, and they needed to push him hard. They key at the time should have been finding a balance of a number of big stars to carry the WCW side (like Hogan, Goldberg) while cutting out the deadwood and locker room cancers (Hall & Nash, Steiners, etc). Then sift through the lower, cheaper ranks for guys that you want to do something with long term. And eyeball guys like Booker to figure out if you want to use the angle to get them in your top mix. The problem is that everyone in the WWF from Trip on down was goin to get all paraniod about these guys stealing their slots. The potential for really bad vibes is high. John

In original Sammy, there were 210+ one hour episodes covering 1972 through June 1990 when if stopped. There have been 86 or so two hour episodes on G+, much of it stuff that was on the original Sammy classics but a fair amount of it new (such as the Jumbo-Flair UN Title match or the Ted-Choshu match that didn't even air on original NTV program). 387 hours or so programing, less commercials and whatnot. Lots of time to mix in Murdoch matches. There was a pretty good rhyme and reason to how it was put together. Most of the major stuff made it onto classics, and a decent chunk that didn't on the original Sammy made it on G+. With two wrestler-related exceptions, I think the only really major thing that hasn't gotten out is the first Harley-Jumbo draw that won Tokyo Sports Match of the Year. Granted, I've never seen that match all that much pimped in historical books and mags. When I saw the listof TS MOTY for the first time and saw it on the list, I kind of scratched my head since it wasn't a match that I'd seen get a lot of run. The two wrestler related exceptions on the original broadcast were Choshu and Tenryu, with Choshu pretty much edited out of the history of All Japan while Tenryu got limited run. In the G+ airings, Choshu and Tenryu have been retored to their proper roles in All Japan, which is one of the reasons those G+ have been gold to folks. Murdoch doesn't really fall into that bucket. The notion that the guys putting it together (now two sets of guys) didn't properly appreciated the greatness and historical significance of Dick is... hard to buy. A Pedro Morales challenge of Baba's PWF title made Classics. Dick's one challenge of Baba's title didn't. There are plenty of other examples, and it's very hard to buy that Classics Production loved *everyone* they put on air. Dick made it three times. I listed them. They're a pretty odd selection, and the lack of any matchup with Jumbo or Baba is pretty striking. I talked about a pair of Jumbo vs Dick matches recently: the UN Title changes that were Holy Grail material. They turned out to both be pretty darn good matches. On the other hand, I've also never seen those matches get much run in historical books or mags. In contrast, Jumbo's matches with Billy Robinson, Rusher Kimura and Mil get big run. Those made Classics. I'm lumping Dick and Ted together because of the original quote in the first post in the thread. They are linked *there*. I wanted to make the point that neither was as big of a star in Japan as was pimped in the 80s, 90s, 00s and that some might still think. I don't think the success of the two in Japan is all that different. Dick might be a little higher, but it's not that different. He's closer to Ted than Gordy. The volume of tours is simply a function of making his first one with a major promotion in 1968 (when he was 21) and his last one in 1989. Two a year for 22 years is 44 tours. It's not an insane number of tours in 22 years. Here are Dick's first there series in Japan, with the TV shows (all thanks to Dan Ginnetty): Bloody Fight Series (8-21 to 9-23) Stan Hansen Bad News Allen Pete Roberts Jim Duggan El Solitario Brazo de Oro Brazo de Plata Dick Murdoch (8-12 to 9-3) Andre the Giant (9-4 to 9-23) Solar (9-17 to 9-23) 8-21-81 1. Tiger Mask/Solitario d. Brazo de Oro/Brazo de Plata 2. Tiger Toguchi d. Dick Murdoch 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami d. Stan Hansen/Pete Roberts 8-28-81 1. Tiger Mask d. Brazo de Oro 2. Pete Roberts/Bad News Allen/Stan Hansen d. Riki Choshu/Tatsumi Fujinami/Seiji Sakaguchi 3. Antonio Inoki vs. Dick Murdoch 9-4-81 1. Killer Khan vs. Andre the Giant 2. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami d. Pete Roberts/Solitario 3. Bad News Allen/Andre the Giant/Stan Hansen d. Riki Choshu/Tiger Toguchi/Antonio Inoki 9-11-81 (taped 9-9) 1. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami d. Brazo de Oro/Plata 2. Andre the Giant d. Seiji Sakaguchi 3. Antonio Inoki/Riki Choshu d. Bad News News/Stan Hansen 9-18-81 1. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Solitario/Solar 2. Bad News Allen/Andre the Giant d. Tiger Toguchi/Seiji Sakaguchi 3. Antonio Inoki vs. Stan Hansen 9-25-81 (taped 9-23) 1. Tiger Mask d. Solar 2. Tatsumi Fujinami d. Solitario 3. Stan Hansen d. Andre the Giant 4. Antonio Inoki d. Tiger Toguchi 10-2-81 (taped 9-17) 1. Tiger Mask d. Brazo de Plata 2. Stan Hansen d. Tiger Toguchi 3. Antonio Inoki d. Andre the Giant 10-9-81 (taped 10-8) 1. Tiger Mask d. Masked Halcon 2. Stan Hansen/Hulk Hogan d. Riki Choshu/Dino Bravo 3. Rusher Kimura d. Antonio Inoki Series 10-9 to 11-5 Andre the Giant Dick Murdock Dino Bravo Bad News Allen Masked Superstar Steve Travis El Texano El Signo Negro Navarro Hulk Hogan (10-8 to 10-17) 10-16-81 1. Tiger Mask d. El Texano 2. Tatsumi Fujinami d. Steve Travis 3. Antonio Inoki/Riki Choshu d. Bad News Allen/Andre the Giant 10-23-81 1. Tiger Mask/Gran Hamada d. El Signo/Negro Navarro 2. Tatsumi Fujinami/Osamu Kido vs. Animal Hamaguchi/Isamu Teranishi 3. Antonio Inoki/Riki Choshu vs. Abby/Masked Superstar 10-30-81---no show---- 11-6-81 (taped 11-5) 1. Tiger Mask d. Gran Hamada 2. Antonio Inoki d. Rusher Kimura 11-13-81 (taped 10-30) 1. Tatsumi Fujinami d. Animal Hamaguchi 2. Tiger Mask/Kengo Kimura d. El Signo/Negro Navarro 3. Antonio Inoki/Seiji Sakaguchi d. Bad News Allen/Seiji Sakaguchi 2nd MSG Tag League (11-19 to 12-10) Andre the Giant Stan Hansen Dick Murdock Bad News Allen Rene Goulet El Canek Super Maquina Pat Patterson (11-19 to 12-2) Hulk Hogan (11-29 to 12-3) Samoan #1 (11-19 to 12-5) Samoan #2 (11-19 to 12-5) Dusty Rhodes (12-4 to 12-10) Ron Hawk (12-4 to 12-10) 11-20-81 1. Yoshiaki Yatsu/Riki Choshu d. Samoans #1/#2 2. Stan Hansen/Dick Murodck d. Killer Khan/Tiger Toguchi 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Andre the Giant/Rene Goulet 11-27-81 1. Yoshiaki Yatsu/Riki Choshu d. Super Maqunia/El Canek 2. Dick Murodck/Stan Hansen vs. Rene Goulet/Andre the Giant 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami d. Killer Khan/Tiger Toguchi 12-4-81 1. Dusty Rhodes/Dick Murdock d. Yoshikai Yatsu/Kengo Kimura 2. Roland Bock d. Riki Choshu 3. Rene Goulet/Andre the Giant d. Killer Khan/Tiger Toguchi 4. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami d. Rusher Kimura/Animal Hamaguchi 12-11-81 (taped 12-10) 1. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Stan Hansen/Dick Murdock 2. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami d. Dick Murdock/Stan Hansen 3. Rene Goulet/Andre the Giant d. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami 12-18-81 (taped 12-8) 1. Tiger Mask vs. El Canek 2. Dick Murdock/Dusty Rhodes d. Rusher Kimura/Tiger Toguchi 3. Andre the Giant d. Killer Khan 4. Stan Hansen/Roland Bock d. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami 12-25-81 (taped 12-1) 1. Tiger Mask/Tatsumi Fujinami d. El Canek/Super Maquina 2. Andre the Giant d. Tiger Toguchi 3. Antonio Inoki d. Hulk Hogan I wouldn't say that Dick was the *least* least name of the gaijins. I mean... there's Rene Goulet. I also wouldn't say that he came back more than any of them. I mean... there's Stan looking us right in the face. And Andre worked with major promotions *after* Dick got dropped by New Japan. Same with Hulk, and the only reason he *might* not have worked as many New Japan series from 1982-89 than Dick is because he got a Bigger Job (i.e. Biggest Wrestling Star In The World). It's hard to tell. More people probably watched a typical band-of-the-month on the Ed Sullivan show than would have watched the biggest appearance of Alanis Morissette in 1995 *before* the 1996 Grammys (Feb 1996). But by that point she'd probably sold 5 million or 10 million albums. Were Freddie and the Dreamers "bigger stars" than Morissette simply because more people watched them on some TV shows? No. What needs to be kept in mind is that Murdoch had not just the TV advantage on Gordy & Doc, but also the era advantage: most of Dick's run with major promotions (1968-82) was when Gaijin vs Native was the key booking narrative. IWE vs New Japan started the ball rolling towards changing that, then Choshu turning on Fujinami and later jumping to All Japan shattered it. Gaijin vs Gaijin became the dominant narrative by the end of the decade. Gordy broke into All Japan as that change was happening (though over in New Japan). He not only survived in it, but thrived. Williams broke into New Japan while it was going on, and again not only survived it but thrived in it. Murdoch, unlike Hansen, lost his job. I'm not surprised at all. The early 1950s to the late 1990s is only around 50 years. It lasted far longer here in the US. It probably could have lasted longer in Japan at a more viable level if it wasn't so poorly managed. John

Uh... John

Muraco has a lot of bad matches, and they often are because of Don. The Steamboat series has to be te most frustrating of all-time, and it's 100% because of Don. He didn't want to do much of anything. I've seen Greg have matches like that, where he was just out there killing time. But they seemed to be later in the 80s after the tag run was done. Don was doing that all the way back to the feud with Pedro. Perhaps can toss some of it off on Pedro, but Don was more than willing to lay around. John

I listed the ones with specific companies from his first tour to his last one in his long run with New Japan. That he worked indies after that wasn't really relevant to what I was getting at. Of course Flair was a bigger star. As was Nick. Touring Champ having major singles matches with the biggest stars in the country help make someone a bigger star. Here's another example of how big of a star Dick was in Japan. The only matches from All Japan that made it onto any of the Classics (original Sammy and G+) were: 12/09/75 Dick Murdoch vs. Anton Geesink 12/15/75 Pat O’Connor vs. Dick Murdoch 12/09/76 Dick Murdoch vs. Killer Karl Kox Did the 11/05/74 PWF Title match with Baba air? No. The 11/27/75 Int'l Tag match between Baba & Jumbo vs Dusty & Dick? No. Either of his title changes with Jumbo, despite the historic nature of them? No. *Any* match between Dick and a native? No. Three matches between Dick and other gaijin. Nothing from 1977-81 from this alleged big star. New Japan Classics is interesting as well because it supports my point made earlier: the first Inoki-Murdoch in 1981 didn't mean anything. It didn't air on Classics. Stuff in the +/-2 months around it that aired: '81.8.6 Kuramae national skill mansion Antonio Inoki vs Masked Superstar '81.8.14 Korakuen hall Antonio Inoki vs. Bad News Allen '81.9.18 The Hiroshima prefectural gymnasium Antonio Inoki vs Stan Hansen '81.9.23 Denen Coliseum Antonio Inoki vs Tiger Toguchi '81.10.8 Kuramae national skill mansion Antonio Inoki vs Rusher Kimura '81.11.6 Kuramae national skill mansion Antonio Inoki vs Rusher Kimura Stan is Stan. Rusher was a massive feud and match at that time. But Masker Superstar? Bad News? Tiger Toguchi? This is going to end up being one of those things that jdw runs into the ground and annoys people. So trust me: Dick and Ted *weren't* as big of stars in Japan as people made them out to be. They toured there a lot. So to did Johnny Ace a generation later. That didn't make Johnny Ace a massive star. Were Dick and Ted bigger stars than Johnny? Sure. But Doc or Gordy? I'm not entirely sold. I'd say Dick and Ted weren't as big of stars as Gordy, and tend to think if folks looked at it objectively, they'd come to the same conclusion. On Doc... I think an argument could be made for Doc being a bigger star relative to his promotion/promotions than Dick was. I think it may be a better argument than could be made for Dick. Ted isn't remotely close to the level of star than Doc was. Dick and Ted were "showa stars". It's a bit like being a star in the 1980s in the WWF: it has cultural legs that wrap how people view things. Piper in the WWF in the 80s doesn't really have that impressive of a drawing record. That's not just relative to Austin and Rock in a different generation, but even within the 80s WWF. Didn't really do a lot, and theer's less to his feud with Hogan than folks would think. But Piper is an 80s Icon, and main evented the original Wrestlemania that allegedly put the WWF on the map. So he gets viewed with that halo over him. Dick and Ted have a halo over them. When people go back and look at how they were actually used and booked, reality is a little different. Note one thing: I wouldn't, and never have, made this argument abou Brody in Japan. He *was* a major star, quickly pushed up into matches with Baba. When he jumped to New Japan, it was major and Inoki instantly booked him into a big bout. His return to All Japan was treated as major, and he was booked to be a major played in the Tag League when coming back, and than booked into the title turn around with Jumbo to start the next year. There are things I knock about Brody: his work, and also that All Japan and New Japan didn't draw as much with him as they did later with other people. But he was clearly positioned, used and booked as a major star. John

I think the Spike deal has proved that they don't need to be on ESPN to do well. Don't know if Dave talked about this or if Jon has run into anything on it, but I wonder if a potential outsider in the bidding would be TNT/TBS. The just made a major move to get the NCAA Tourney, including eventually getting the Championship Game on cable (which will be a first among major sporting events). They went balls out to get MLB, including cutting the cord with their *own* team broadcasts. The NBA is a massive part of the network. They appear to be very much angling to be a major player in the sporting world... that NCAA thing isn't any lightweight deal. John

Yeah, I was thinking both sides of that: it's the point he usually finds reasons not to be around a failure, but he also probably could use the cash. He's not likely to be as poor as Ric is, but the divorce and the lawsuit have stretched him. John

Check, got it.

BTW, last add Jon: where can we read your regular articles on MMA?

Timeline is a bit of a problem. I'm sure that folks would point to earlier Ricky stuff than 1985. I think his match with Tully at Starcade is one of his very best, reflecting on both of them very well. Others would point to his tag work as examples of his greatness as a tag babyface. Then in the period, we have these tough stretches: 1987 Time off He worked very little from July-October of 1987, largely special appearances to fill in for wrestlers (such as Jake). 1988 WWF Exit He was on a limited schedule from November 1987 through Mania IV, which was his last match in that stretch with the WWF. He was off for basically a year until signing with WCW. 1989 WCW He was just there from Feb to July/August. I don't recall if he was working every night, but don't think he did much other than the tag match prior to winning the title, and he may have had some other time off in there. 1991 WWF Return He had a match or two in New Japan, and if I recall did some indy work in VA. But I don't think anyone is holding that up as examples of great Ricky stuff. His first match back in the WWF was 3/11/91, so it was more than a year and a half. He was done in October, and would debut in WCW memorably in November. Month off doesn't mean much compared to the other ones in here. WCW Return Nov 1991 through Aug 1994, pretty consistently working. Don't recall a major injury that kept him out. Still... there are a number of holes in those "seven years". I also don't think folks are just comparing them at their peaks. I don't think folks ignore Bret's tag work in the 80s because being good tag workers is something Steamer and Bret have in common, even if they probably did their best tag work on opposite side: one a face while the other was a heel. Even his singles matches with Savage and Ricky himself of things that people point to when considering Bret as a worker. Pre-peak? Sure, but certainly factors in rating Bret, just as Steambers stuff prior to 1985 is part of considering his work. John

Jon: when are the Spike contracts up? I'm trying to recall how UFC got on Versus even in limited fashion? Let's say a chunk of the content on the WEC shows (i.e. the matches) were rolled into PPV's, Fight Night, UFC Live and the TUF Finals with the notion to better promote those fighters/classes and also make for improved cards. The truely "big" stuff would be on PPV, then the usual UFC pecking order on down through the other shows. Rather than 7-8 shows, how many would the UFC need to add to their programing? Then again, every slot that WEC performers take on current UFC programing means someone in the lower ranks of the UFC gets bumped. But some of it easily resolves itself like the Lightweight division getting consolidated and the excess set free. It's largely two divisions being added to the roster, and handpicking the keepers of the Lightweight division. John

Understood that from Kriz. My question: why don't you have *your* Middleweight Champ beat *their* Middleweght Champ before he moves down to Welterweight? That's the pro wrestling move, afterall. Setting aside the joke, it's a pretty standard promotional thing. Was it simply a condition of Shields jumping: "I'll only jump if I don't have to fight Silva and I get a match with GSP?" While you're here, Jon... with UFC now on Versus, and given the lack of the words "WEC" on the PPV, is there any move to roll WEC into UFC? Merge the WEC Lightweight title into the UFC one, and recognize the Featherweight and Bantamweight titles and move the divisions into UFC (let alone if they ever roll out a Flyweight division). How much $$$ did they whiz away by having Faber's prime basically given away on TV? Now they have Aldo and he's working on smaller PPVs rather tha getting built up on UFC cards. Seems like it's time to do this. John

The subject line of the thread contains Dave Meltzer. The first post relates to Dave's opinion of Ted and Dick. That's the relevancy of my comments about Meltzer relating to Hansen & DiBiase. We all have had discussions on *Brody* being overrated. The current online hardcore view of Brody is wildly different from what the view of hardcore fans while Brody was alive, and even through the mid-90s. That doesn't mean it isn't relevant to a discussion of Brody to mention how he was thought of back when he was alive. The reverse on Backlund. The whole discussion and analysis of Tiger Mask over the past decade online is framed in the context that Tiger was an iconic figure in the hardcore world all the way up to the point that people started to point out the flaws. This isn't a common or new thing online. And in this case, it ties right into the topic of the thread. John