Phil Schneider

It was really good, It would probably be in the low 30's but when I watched it, I didn't think it was as good as the 25th match on my list

Here is my current list, I haven't written up the third Danielson v. Morishima match yet, but I imagine that will find a spot in the top 10. All of these are reviewed over at Segunda Caidia http://segundacaida.blogspot.com 1. Nigel McGuinness v. Bryan Danielson ROH 6/23 2. Nigel McGuinness v. Samoa Joe ROH 3/3 3. John Cena v. Umaga WWE 1/28 4. Eddie Kingston v. Chris Hero IWA-MS 9/29 5. Bryan Danielson v. Takeshi Morishima ROH 8/25 6. Nigel McGuinness v. Takeshi Morishima ROH 4/14 7. Chris Harris v. James Storm TNA 5/13 8. Jimmy Jacobs v. B.J. Whitmer ROH 3/4 9. Samoa Joe v. Takeshi Morishima ROH 2/16 10. Matt Hardy v. Finlay WWE 6/19 11. Shawn Micheals v. John Cena WWE 4/23 12. Jimmy Jacobs v. B.J. Whitmer ROH 3/31 13. Solar 1/Mano Negra v. Negro Navarro/Black Terry Lucha Libre VIP 3/10 14. MNM v. Hardy Boyz WWE 1/28 15. Briscoes v. Ricky Marvin/Kontaro Suzuki NOAH 1/21 16. Bryan Danielson/Takeshi Morishima v. KENTA/Nigel McGuiness ROH 5/12 17. John Cena v. Great Khali 5/20 18. Mitsuhara Misawa v. Bison Smith NOAH 6/3 19. John Cena v. King Booker v. Bobby Lashley v. Mick Foley v. Randy Orton WWE 6/24 20. Necro Butcher v. Jay Briscoe ROH 21. Briscoes v. Murder City Machine Guns ROH 4/28 22. Finlay v. Undertaker 3/6 WWE 23. Briscoes v. Kevin Steen/El Generico ROH 4/14 24. Colt Cabana v. Jimmy Jacobs ROH 2/24 25. Takeshi Sasaki v. Yuki Miyamoto BJW 3/14

Projects if I could PM'd you. -- Loss, 01/10

Jesus that list of best matches is embarrassing

So you literally think that, aside from Savage/Steamboat, that there wasn't a single match from the WWF after 1984 which deserved to make a best-of list? Whoa. That's some pretty intense hatred. Here are the top 20 WWF matches of the 1980's, we got 119 ballots from people who watched 100 matches and ranked them, hard to argue against this being consensus. 1 Sgt Slaughter vs Iron Sheik (6/16/84 MSG) 2 Ricky Steamboat vs Randy Savage (3/29/87 Pontiac MI Wrestlemania 3) 3 Adrian Adonis/Dick Murdoch vs Brisco Brothers (12/28/84 MSG) 4 Bret Hart vs Randy Savage (11/11/87 Seattle WA aired SNME 11/28/87) 5 Bret Hart vs Mr Perfect (10/2/89 Wheeling WV) 6 Bob Backlund vs Adrian Adonis (1/18/82 MSG) 7 Greg Valentine vs Ron Garvin (9/30/89 MSG) 8 Glamour Girls vs Jumping Bomb Angels (11/24/87 MSG) 9 Ricky Steamboat vs Jake Roberts (8/9/86 Boston MA) 10 Sgt Slaughter vs Iron Sheik (5/21/84 MSG) 11 Ultimate Warrior vs Rick Rude (8/28/89 East Rutherford NJ Summerslam) 12 Brainbusters vs Hart Foundation (8/28/89 East Rutherford NJ Summerslam) 13 Barry Windham vs Dick Murdoch (2/16/85 Philadelphia PA) 14 Dynamite Kid vs Bret Hart (9/14/85 Landover MD) 15 British Bulldogs vs Hart Foundation (9/23/85 MSG) 16 Randy Savage vs Ricky Steamboat (7/27/86 Toronto Ontario) 17 Bret Hart vs Ted DiBiase (3/8/89 Odessa TX aired Prime Time 3/20/89) 18 Ricky Steamboat vs Bret Hart (3/8/86 Boston MA) 19 Ricky Steamboat vs Bob Orton Jr (7/20/85 Landover MD) 20 Hulk Hogan vs Big Bossman (3/18/89 MSG) Match 1 and 2 pretty clearly belong on any list of the best matches from the 1980's. After those two, I can't see anyone arguing for any of the other matches belonging on a top 100 list. I liked Adonis/Murdoch v. Briscos a bunch, but for 1980's tags? There are at least a dozen Rock and Roll Express matches which kill this, ignoring Japan, Mexico and every other team in American besides the Rock and Roll Express. Hell Dick Murdoch has at least 5 or 6 better matches on the Watts set alone. I had Hogan v. Bossman in a cage really high on my list, I really dug that match, but I doubt it cracks a top 20 list of 1980's cage matches, much less a list of matches in total. Seriously read that list over and tell us what belongs.

I think he means Watts pushing Barbarian as a main event guy against Simmons in WCW, which totally ruled BTW

I wonder if being a promoter's son is a huge issue. It seems a fair share of the worst second-generation wrestlers come from such families. Tully Blanchard? David Von Erich? Kevin Von Erich? Kerry Von Erich? Gino Hernandez? Eddie Guerrerro? Chavo Guerrerro? Hector Guerrerro? Mondo Guerrerro? Dory Funk Jr.? Terry Funk?

Your Carlito hate is weird, I am months behind on Smackdown and rarely watch RAW, but both his PPV match with Flair and post Crossgate SD match with Flair were very good.

"In terms of actual sleaze factor, you'd never hear the kind of stories about porn stars that you hear about wrestlers. Also, most of porn's big stars end up running their own companies and are comfortably well off, while most of wrestling's big stars end up offering handjobs for crack outside of state fairs." Find me a pro-wrestling defender who said something that stupid. You come off like Mike Sweetser.

This is coming from the guy who thiks all porn stars end up running their own buisnesses?

It isn't the sex that makes porn sleazy, not even really the degredation, I mean we have all been with girls who want you to degrade them, but it only gets sleazy if you suggest that you film the degradation and sell it. People who are saying things like "at least porn stars get paid well" seem to be missing the point

Not yet, but Marifuji sucks ass, so I wouldn't blame Misawa is said match sucked ass

Plus Misawa still fucking rules, watch the Bison Smith and Sano matches.

Nothing says shitty early 90's WWF like back to back Chris Walker v. Warlord and Sid v. Hercules matches. You could squeeze out the ringmats, inject the sweat into your arm and gain 15 pounds of muscle

I don't know who wrote it, maybe Tomk, but somebody once posted something to the effect of: "this guy's style is like a frat boy getting laid, switching positions every 2 minutes desperately trying to make the girl cum." That's the best analogy for MOVES heavy matches and workers I've ever read. "well that didn't pop the crowd too much, HOW BOUT THIS????" That was me describing Vince Russo and Bischoffs first Nitro, although it works fine with the Roderick Strong and Austin Aries match I saw at ROH this weekend too.

Resilience v No Remorse Corps: TKG: I dug this a bunch I'm always a fan of the spotfest as opener format. This was filled with guys who I actively don't like and for some reason they kept on matching up Romero and Cross which didn't help to hide either of their flaws. But the advantage of this type of quick multiperson spotfest was it got guys in and out quickly. Guys hit their spots and then get out of the way, guys who are tempted to work, everything is even, matches are forced to work man down and sell for the two on ones,etc. Davey Richards was perfectly fine in this and both Delirious and Erick Stevens delivered. Roderick Strong who is normally the best guy on his team looked really really off for large chunks of this. But even with the an off Strong and the pairing of Romero/Cross this was a format that meant none of that really hurt the match. Post match-Austin Aries does some babyface mic work and they need to get a real sound-man for these shows. PAS: Yeah Strong looked actively terrible here, which is kind of weird. He blew a missed clothesline by actually clotheslining the guy, which is actually kind of unique. I liked this way more then I thought I would considering how much I dislike most of the guys in it. Stevens especially looked really good, in a type of match that isn't really his thing. I think they should have shaved off a minute or two at the end, as they had a two count or two too many. Claudio Castagnoli v Matt Sydal TKG: This had some spectacular spots, Castagnoli takes the Chris Hamerick/Fuerza bump, and Sydal eats a giant swing better than I've ever seen anyone eat a giant swing as his face goes through multiple guy trying to hold down his lunch on a roller coaster variations. But this was disappointing. Both guys are guys who can work multiple speeds. Guys who can move from fast to slow to concentrated fast to medium, etc. Both guys can do and sell for nice mat work, both guys know how to do and sell for good brawling strike sections. Both are guys who can work face and heel and here instead they worked just super match up and those are completely forgettable outside the spots. Part of the format of starting show with fast 6 man spotfest is that you slowly move away from that opening speed. Second match at same speed as first means they start to run together. PAS: I had similar problems with this as Tom. This really could have used some face/heel structure, so it would be something besides just spot after spot. Still I guess for the post match angle to work, this needs to be worked as a scientific face v. face match. I would rather see Bret Hart as a face working Buzz Sawyer as a heel, but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy them exchanging gut wrench takedowns in their Georgia match. I guess intricate headscissors are the 2007 version of gut wrench takedowns. TKG: Post match Larry Sweeney does mic work to sign Sydal up for a contract and I really liked the almost parallelism of Austin Aries signing contract to Ring of Honor-this place that values and respects the wrestlers and the fans, while heel Sydal signs contract with Sweeney who represents lack of respect and sportsmanship. Larry Sweeney has never facially looked or sounded as much like Christopher Love. Naomichi Marifuji v BJ Whitmer- TKG: Lenny Leonard tells me all about the backstory of Marifuji and how he has held every title in NOAH including the "prestigious" GHC belt and he tells me Whitmer's backstory and then he announces "this will be a very even matchup". Really? They are going to run an even match-up between the guy they are putting over as a GHC title holder and the guy who is working a PPV loosing streak leading to joining an Adam Pierce stable.??? I guess working 50/50 opposite former GHC title holder is better than last PPV where Whitmer took 60 against current ROH title holder. Still this was shitty and the half that Whitmer was in control for was ugly and the half where Whitmer was eating stuff wasn't a ton better. This was worked really even and started fine but quickly went to shit. They did lots of bad looking strike exchanges which only reminded me of how much the last match could have used some strike exchanges. PAS: I didn't hate this as much as I hated either guys previous PPV match, but that is damning with pretty faint praise. Whitmer is a guy who is clearly someone who started tape trading about 1998, I bet I sold him a Schneider Comp at some point. He jumps between 1998 Big Japan bumps, and 1998 All Japan suplex exchanges. He doesn't do either particularly well, but his channeling of a 1998 Kobashi v. Akyama match is the shittier of the two. Marifuji was probably a ring boy at that point so he can run through a shitty approximation of one of those matches. Also Marifuhji has some goofy fucking offense, less like he is channelling Misawa and more like channeling Cheech and or Cloudy. There is a point where Whitmer crotches himself on the top rope, where he actually crotched himself before Marifuji made contact with the ropes. One of the problems with both PPV's so far has been that all the matches are too similar, they don't break up the high impact stuff with mat based matches or comedy matches. I guess your poorly executed Whitmer match is in the spot on the card where Colt Cabana v. Kikutaro used to go. Pelle Primau v. Brent Albright PAS: I like the idea of introducing someone new by having them brutal squash a jobber, it is basically how they introduced Steen and Generico on the last PPV, and it works well here too. Albright is a shitty guy to showcase, as he looks like Joey Fatone with an HGH belly, but this is a fine way to showcase him. TKG: Yeah this was fine. Primau eats stuff well and Albright hit his stuff well. They should have worked the Whitmer v Morishima match more like this. This was also helped by just being the only uneven match on the show thus far and just being paced differently from everything else on the show. Briscoes v. Kevin Steen/El Generico PAS: I liked this better then the Briscoes match on the last PPV, as Kevin Steen is really good at working heel, and you do want to see him get his pasty face kicked in. The match meandered a bit in the beginning, as Generico worked face in peril, which he isn't very good at, and he wasn't a face. Still when they got kicking with their Briscoes finish it was something to see. Jay's Cactus clothesline was awesome, and the beel into the chairs was a great street fight execution of a signature spot. Jay should really stop using the press slam DVD as a set up move, but I liked this a bunch and it makes me want to see all of their garbage match rematches. TKG: Yeah this was the best thing on the show thus far. It had the face/heel dynamic that was missing from the last PPV tag match. Had less Marc insanity though. Being paced like everything else made it not stand out as much as it should have but it was fun crazy tag with nice hateful crowd brawling. Generico as faceish member of his tag team working heel in peril didn't work to well for me either but Generico looked pretty great in everything else he did. It really feels like he needs to go the Jimmy Jacobs route and move on in terms of gimmick. This type of match can feel like it has excessive near falls or goes, this didn't. Outside of the press slam DVD for two that set up the finisher, this really felt like it ended right where it should end. TKG: I liked both the backstage Sweeney and Adam Pearce promos, both a lot better than their promos from last PPV. PAS: Adam Pearce's Kevin Sullivan stuff doesn't work with his black button up shirt and blue jeans. He needs a robe or something. It doesn't work with a guy dressed like a middle manager at a sports bar. Takeshi Morishima v. Jimmy Rave PAS: I don't like the Morishima 3 minute squash, where opponent still gets all of his signature offense in, match formula at all. Still Rave takes crazy bumps on the clothesline and backdrop so this was better then the Whitmer match. Still it is a dumb formula. TKG: It should also be said that Rave's spear and other offense looks alot nastier than Whitmer's offense. Bad formula, but like the Albright squash, this still felt different enough to other matches that it was satisfying. Bryan Danielson v. Nigel McGuiness PAS: Man alive, this is how you end a PPV. These guys have a real formula worked out with each other, and it is really great to see how they adjust that formula in their different matches. I loved all of the opening matwork, all of the stuff with Nigel in the guard, and Danielson digging his knuckles into the temple was spectacular, I loved how they did the MMA spots, but made them pro-wrestlingy. I thought the selling in this match was actually pretty top shelf. Nigel often works restarts into his big matches, but here he kind of did mini-restarts throughout the match, toughing his way through moves he normally does easier. The fighting into the Tower of London was especially awesome. This match really felt like it was the stylistic offspring of all of those Regal v. Benoit matches, like this was the main event match those two never got to have with each other. Of course it is hard to watch both of these guys slam their heads into each other until they bleed without thinking about ghosts. Still great art is often tinged with tragedy, and this is the best piece of wrestling art this year. TKG: Yeah this was pretty spectacular. And this is what you watch ROH for. So I complained earlier about everything on this PPV being worked at same pace. Instead of starting with a hot multiperson spotfest opener, slowing down to a technical match, then doing a brawl followed by a comedy match, followed by your big hard hitting main event...they instead ran with lots of even stuff, worked all at the same breakneck level and a couple squashes. And I could see there being a market of people who were upset that TNA didn't just build around the X-division but that market isn't me. This is what I want to see and I imagine that people who enjoy the other stuff on the show should enjoy this too. There were parts of the main which were really Regal v Benoitish and parts which were really about All Japan cumulative selling. For a match to determine who gets to challenge for the title it really was worked like a title match. The previous two Nigel v Danielson matches were worked essentially with Danielson as the man and Nigel as challenger to the man. Danielson had the title then. Here Danielson doesn't have the title and its not quite that you feel like he's the guy challenging, but the dynamic is completely changed. Here he isn't guy fighting to protect and hold onto his title, instead he is guy who has to take the title shot away from Nigel. The match moves really nicely from mat section to hard hitting section to throw section to dives into brawling section to your post-back dropped on guard rail back selling stretch to final strikes finish. The match never really feels broken up as you don't have a sense that you are in one section as it just it all flows from one to the other as both guys sell the cumulative punishment as they try to win. Great main event and it feels like this PPV top to bottom is probably a much better advertisement for ROH than the last one. I think even if your only exposure to Morishima was from these PPVs, you'd leave this one excited about Morishima v Danielson. So not only a good advertisement for their other product but also good advertisement for next PPV.

88 match with Dundee?

I think he is easily a better worker then Steamboat, can work both babyface and heel really well while Steamboat was strictly a face, has arguably the best punches in wrestling history, and I would take a Dundee punch over a Steamboat chop. I think he is a more impressive flyer too, the top rope Dundee but drop is way nastier then the body press or chop. Plus it is the 80's heel workers (which Dundee was in his most famous stuff) didn't do lots of moves, that was babyface wrestling, still watching Dundee and Mantell work heel tag spots they are more varied and more interesting then Eaton and Condrey who are the gold standard for that stuff. Plus Dundee main evented for years despite being 5'2, all on charisma and skill, and he also didn't have the super roided physique of 80's Ricky Steamboat.

I'll leave this to Phil or Bix, but please tell me you're not going to dismiss Bill Dundee because of MOVES~!? I believe he is. Bill Dundee didn't do moonsaults like a good wrestler would. Phil would be better to reply here, because he was once trolled by Frank Jewett into counting suplexes while watching the '85 Lawler-Dundee LLT match. Being trolled by Frank Jewett is one thing, but being trolled by Jingus is something different. If someone who isn't a known idiot wants me to explain Bill Dundee, I will go ahead and do it.

I'm not gonna question this, because I lack the grounding in Dundee's work to do so...but if I may go off on a tangent, Phil, what are the really great Bill Dundee matches that don't have Lawler? I don't doubt they exist, but you never hear about them, and it's something I'd like to know about before ranking Dundee ahead of Eddie and Benoit. Of course, aside from work, Dundee was a bigger draw (at least than Benoit, and for longer than Eddie) and was a successful booker. I think he definitely belongs. I am currently watching boat loads of Watts, and there is a ton of awesome Dundee tags from that period. Dundee and Mantell feuded with the Fantastics and Dundee/Porkchops Cash v. Midnight Express may be one of my favorite MX matches ever.

Why isn't Bill Dundee in? Eddie and Benoit are in based on work, and Dundee was better for much longer then they were

These were all already on the 619 dvd, and anyone who's a big enough Mysterio fan to buy the new disc already owns that one. I'm sure the ECW matches are otherwise available too. I only counted six matches that haven't already been released on commercial video in some form. Why does the WWE do that? Instead of digging up obscure forgotten gems, they tend to put mostly the same collection of big matches on their DVDs over and over again. It's not like their tape library is too small for them to produce some unseen material that nobody except the couple dozen people who watched Thunder that one night have seen. I counted 14 that haven't been on previous DVD releases. The Psicosis ECW match was on one of the Pioneer sets back in the day. Not sure about the Juvi match, as it wouldn't shock me if it's the same match that was on another Pioneer set but (in classic WWE fashion) they fucked up the date. Anyway, I've never seen the Rey-JBL match that's listed, but am looking forward to after reading Phil Schneider's review at Segunda Caida. S.L.L wrote the review not me, it is a great match though

Here is Wayne v. Rex Sterling, not his best match, but you get a sense of what he can do http://youtube.com/watch?v=bBHrXPjODN8