Dylan Waco

The build to the show wasn't about making Hogan the huge star. He would have had to have been in Crockett way in advance to change that up.

Greensboro was their big time town and their big arena. Starrcade was a Crocket promotion and that was where the show was going to be. Expanding on Bock a bit and a point John made about the fact that Sam probably wouldn't have backed him that is likely true BUT: Bock was a St. Louis guy. Bock was a second generation guy who's dad was an extremely well respected wrestler with the St. Louis guys. Both of those things would have helped him immensely in the eyes of Sam in the right situation. The problem is (and I think John illustrates this well) there really was no "right situation." Complicating things even more is the fact that Race was already a guy with points in Central States at that point and while that was a distinct world from St. Louis there was some overlap with political players in both places. In other words even if Sam were pissed at Race for some reason, politically it would have been extremely tough to dump Harley

I've heard it suggested many times that Bock was considered for the title. I am skeptical that he was ever outright offered it and turned it down. It's more likely that a promoter of note/player in the NWA mentioned to him that he might be someone of interest and he let them know the feeling wasn't mutual. AWA money was good and travel was lighter. Plus Bock was able to book himself out to other offices (Calgary, Memphis, Houston, et.) whereas in the NWA he would have been at the whim of the NWA promoters, with the NWA president taking a percentage of the cut as his pimp.

It was a poor choice of words on my part. I don't know if the 23k figure is correct or not, but it's possible. Seems high based on how people I know were raving about how it did way better than expected, but it wouldn't shock me either. My guess is Quack has always lost tons of money on the "big" shows but has worked around it because he had a wealthy enabler on the other side of the bed

Now and even at the time people told me they lost like $23,000 on those three events. I was told it was a money loser too, but that they were expecting to eat a much bigger loss and were willing to eat the loss for exposure. "Shockingly successful" is a shitty way to phrase it

The Joshimania bit is a clear lie, since I had multiple people in the know tell me those shows were considered shockingly successful at the time. Quack is hurting for money because his big revenue pool for fly ins and expansion isn't there anymore. So he is now going the route of satellite feds with branding. That was the whole purpose behind NPWD as well.

I already have said what I think was required of an NWA champ a few times in the thread - bump/stooge/sell for often times limited challengers, while still being able to come out looking strong and credible. That was pretty much the name of peak Patera's game. I think offense is pretty much entirely irrelevant in terms of NWA champ style working. Working a bearhug (which I've seen Harley and even Ric do) or a full nelson is really no different then working any other hold in the sense that they are there to milk/build heat.

Sam was very high on Flair too. I am speculating, but with the benefit of hindsight I would guess that there would be some who would have thought Patera had already peaked as a "national" star as he had already run through a ton of places (Dallas, Oklahoma, Hawaii, AWA, Crockett, WWF, Toronto, St. Louis, Georgia, Houston, perhaps other places I'm forgetting) and the biggest of the big name babyfaces by 81. Dibiase by contrast might have been seen as "too green" in terms of being proven as a versatile performer, who could draw in several different environments. Flair might have been seen as a happy medium, who had the added benefit of being the top singles guy in the biggest current NWA territory.

Since I have these matches, why not I'll give them a watch in the next couple of weeks in the Microscope. Anyone else unfamiliar with Patera from 1980 can join me if they wish. Under evaluation will not only be Patera as a worker in general, but also the claim made by Dylan and jdw in this thread that Patera was in fact an NWA-champ style worker in 1980. If he was, I'll be the first to say so. My scepticism stems from the fact that workers don't often make a wholesale change in their style in the space of a couple of years. Patera was a tag worker in the AWA. That requires a different set up of tools. I don't think his work was radically different, just as I don't necessarily think Jack Brisco's work was radically different in 1983 then it was when he was champ. Different things get emphasized, matches are built different ways, et I'd be pretty shocked if you thought he was (or was able) to work NWA-champ style because I still suspect your conception of that style and mine are radically different and nothing that has been said in this thread gives me any reason to think otherwise. But I would like to hear your thoughts on the matches one way or the other.

Three things 1. It's a worthless argument. Yes anything can and could happen in the abstract. For example I could have a fifty inch cock with wings attached to it that I use to fly to Jupiter six times a day. How likely is this? Not very likely. Arguing that ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN is an argument has absolutely no value to a discussion, but in general I would be willing to "give you a break on Uncle Ivan" if that were solely what we were arguing about. But it's not. You were arguing the ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN principle as an argument in favor of Ivan in 83 v. Patera in 81. And that strikes me as a pretty desperate argument. 2. Let's say I give you the benefit of the doubt and you weren't just tossing out something random for no reason to "prove" some point about how literally anything is possible in the abstract. Well okay. That means even if you didn't mean it as a direct analogy, you damn sure had to have thought they were worth comparing on some level. But the purposes of what we have been talking about in the thread there is really no comparison that makes referencing it relevant - "Anything is possible in wrestling, Backlund won a world title in 94!" is a meaningless and odd argument to make in this thread. "Strange things happen in wrestling with world titles because Bob Backlund had a two day reign at the low point in WWF history, which was a short transition run from one performer to another, which in turn means Ivan Kollof - who was employed by another wrestling organization - would have been theoretically on the radar to be a traveling NWA champion in 1983, used for the purpose of setting up a huge "passing the torch" moment at the biggest Crockett show in history to Ric Flair" is a pretty big leap. It's not just that the two things aren't exactly the same, or even close to the same. It's that there is really no reason to bring up one in a discussion of the other, unless it was an odd choice to make the worthless ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN abstract argument or.... 3. In a thread where I accused you of viewing things through a WWF prism, to cite that as a point that was somehow relevant on any grounds, doesn't exactly lead me to believe my accusation was off point. I know you watch and love NWA, I listen to the podcasts you guys do with some regularity, but that doesn't mean you don't come into things with assumptions and biases based on the way you evolved as a fan. Lord knows I have

Muchnick retired as a promoter on Jan 1 1982. I don't know anyone who argues his influence past that point was all that big, though he was still pulling strings behind the scenes to one degree or another for a couple of years. Who in this thread is arguing that St. Louis was the "center" of the NWA in 1983? Not a troll question, as I may have legitimately missed it, but I think it's well known by most people that St. Louis was in a state of chaos by that point that resulted in a brief war for the town and Vince taking over. I think it's completely fair to say that St. Louis can be overhyped to a degree even before that point, but I also think it's pretty much universally accepted that Muchnick was the power broker for years - in 1981 he still would have been an extremely powerful voice and Kiel cards were still the closest thing to a NWA version of an MSG show. Being a Muchnick favorite would have had a lot of value for any body at that point. Enough to get someone the NWA title by itself? No. But that's hardly the only thing Patera had on his resume in 81. Matysik spoke favorably about Patera on many of the podcasts with Cubeta. In the book he talks him up in Stevens bio. He actually uses Patera and Blackwell as examples of great workers and makes the argument that Stevens "represents them." It's a goofy argument but it speaks to the point that Patera was a favorite of the St. Louis office. In and of itself you could take it as an off the cuff comment - but when you see how he was booked in St. Louis it's pretty clear it wasn't.

I like how Daniel Bryan's new working style/look is basically WWE Mark Briscoe

That tends to explain why you see things differently than we do. :/ I also asked you this: Well? Also, are you arguing for him as NWA champ based on his WWF work? Would the NWA board have been taking notes on his performances in New York? (not a troll, serious question) It was the biggest money territory in the U.S. where he was massively successful against all the top names. Just as he was against all the top names other places. He had also been a star in MACW. He was known and had worked all the big money territories. There would have been no need to take notes on his abilities in New York - he was working in St. Louis at the same time as noted in this thread and others multiple times. As noted in this thread and in Matysik's book by implication he was a favorite of the St. Louis office, and Sam Muchnick who was pretty much the godfather of the NWA.

I agree that it's not a secret, but you keep citing it as a reason Patera could have never held the belt. I have cited why I think he was a quite good at that "style" if you want to call it that. I see no harm in publicly stating our assumptions about things as it keeps things from being needlessly confusing

I've already spelled out what I believe it was. I have no clue what you believe it was and there could be a huge difference here since you were citing Iron Sheik's one month title win in the WWF as a historical parallel to Ivan Kollof theoretically winning the NWA Title and coming into the biggest show in Crockett history up to that point as the champ to pass the torch to Flair. I don't even mean that as a troll. Even when I agree with you (which is probably more often than not actually) we rarely share assumptions and I don't think we view anything through the same prism

How was Dibiase in that typical NWA mold and Patera wasn't? What is that typical NWA mold?

In terms of look which is what I was referencing I don't think there was such a thing. Dory, Kiniski, Race, Flair, Terry, Brisco, Dusty....not a ton of similarities there even among the Funks themselves. In terms of work? I haven't seen a ton of Kiniski, but I would imagine that like all NWA champs he had to stooge and make the local guys look good while being able to stay strong himself. That's pretty much the whole essence of Patera in 1980.

Was Dusty Rhodes an NWA champ style worker Did Dusty have a 2-year run? The question is not "could Patera have been champ", it's "could Patera have taken the Flair role in 1981". Could Dusty have? No is your simple answer. jdw says he might easily have worked the NWA champ style. There is the tacit admission there that he would have had to have change his style, which is the closest I'm going to get to any sort of concession here. Why would you be looking for a concession? How much 80 Patera have you even seen? How would you define NWA World champ working style? Could he have taken the role of Flair in 81? Well up until 81 he was a bigger national star then Flair, had drawn in more places consistently, had worked against bigger babyface stars consistently and was coming off a year of work that is pretty universally regarded as great to the point where a guys with views as diverse on wrestling as myself, John, Larry Matysik, John McAdam, et think he was one of the better workers around at the time. He'd carried limited performers, shown a willingness to work all over the place and was over with at least some of the key promoters and the single most important one. So I would say "Yes, he could have." Would he have been BETTER than Flair? I wouldn't even hazard a guess, but that's not the question

I can't see Patera as even a fringe option in 83 as I said before. His window was 81, after the hot New York run. He was a bigger star in 83 then we tend to remember and was still in demand - AWA, St. Louis, Montreal, Memphis - but he would not have been a real option for the 83 spot. I do think Patera in 83 is a better option than Ivan in 83, but neither is a real serious option by any metric. As for his working style/being able to carry a broomstick....frankly I saw more carry jobs out/strong performances with limited guys out of Patera in 80 then I can remember seeing out of Ted when he would have been a contender. That's not a knock on Ted and I wouldn't doubt he could do it. But it's not like he was working Tony Atlas, Morales, aging Bruno (who I like but is limited), let alone guys like Putski and Strongbow. Aside from Backlund, I'm not sure Patera worked anything close to a top level guy in his peak year. I'd say 80 Patera is pretty much a textbook example of how to stooge/bump, while remaining strong which was really the key to NWA champs during that period. If you want to argue based on "look" or something of that ilk he's not that different in presence to me from Kiniski.

Backlund had the belt for what, a day or two? It's not even close to the same thing.

I don't think you are insane, nor do I think you have a poor grasp of wrestling history. I do think viewing things through the prism of 1983/84 Vince is completely wrong headed and the Sheik comparison totally off the wall. I also think the 30-60 days metric is a non-starter because that was never going to happen - you needed time to build the event. In that day in age thirty days certainly wasn't enough for what they were going for - sixty would have been pushing it. The point I'm arguing isn't that Ivan is a literal impossibility (nothing is), but rather that I think it's pretty out there to believe Ivan in 83 was a more likely option than Patera in 81.

Except we know that they ran Flair vs. Nikita in a American vs. foreigner angle just 2 years later. My unwillingness to get into 81 is because the parameters of that scenario haven't really been fleshed out. Is this a world without Flair? Which title switch are we talking there? Flair won the title in Sept of 81 as I mentioned in my post. There is a big difference between Crockett and Flair in 83 and in 85. Big difference between Nikita's role and the role you are proposing as a possibility for Ivan. So big that it's not even a real comparison you can work with. I assume you know this. Just for shits a giggles give me an example of an NWA champion Ivan would have been comparable too.

In 81? No way. In 83? Very unlikely, but I would say a better shot than Ivan.

Last 20 years? I hadn't even met Dave 20 years ago today. Wouldn't until August 28, 1993 at a show. Please tell me you had to look that date up

This is already a concession because there WAS a real case for Patera both in theory and in practice. Patera's name was at least tossed around as a possibility in 80/81. We have no clue how serious it was, but he was at least on the table in the eyes of some promoters. I have never once heard Ivan mentioned as being on the table in 83 as an NWA title holder. With Patera you certainly have a real case. You also probably have a "realistic possibility." I see no reason to believe Ivan had either in 83. This is a pretty bad comparison for a variety of reasons, some of which you touched on below. 1. The point wasn't Flair triumphing over evil foreign menace because he was the essence of Americana. The point was "passing of the guard" title switch. Vastly different things. Not even close really. 2. The goals of Crockett and Vince at those points were radically different. Not even comparable really. 3. Sheik's reign was barely even a reign. Almost nothing special was required of him. Race had the belt for half a year as would anyone else in the spot in 83. 4. Sheik worked for one promoter. Race or whoever was in that slot would have worked for perhaps a dozen or more. I could go on, but the point is viewing this through the prism of 80's WWF/Vince is the absolute wrong way to do it. I don't think Patera would have even been a fringe option in 83. Or Hansen. Even Dibiase feels like a pretty big stretch for what they were looking for. In the absence of Race they would have probably made a play for Jack or Terry. Might not have worked. If it didn't Valentine is right there. I'm trying to think of how far down the list they would have had to get to even get to Ivan, but it seems unlikely he would have been further up the theoretical list than Patera would have been in 81 (you could make the case there was exactly one guy on that list in 81 - Flair). Not if they are looking for someone who will be defending the title nationally and in Japan and representing a huge variety of promotions. The third would have been a negative for what they were going for. I think that's actually pretty obvious. The second is true to an extent, though his national luster/value was almost certainly not at the level of Patera in 81 which is the direct comp. The first is true only in name. He was briefly - very briefly - champion of the big NYC territory. I'm not saying he was an impossibility. Just a massive, massive, massive improbability. I think your argument is based on false equivalency between the WWF and Crockett/NWA, a view that "Americans v. foreigners" was the default standard for big match 80's feuds, and a complete unwillingness to discuss the details of 81 - details that pretty clearly illustrate Patera was one of the absolute top stars in wrestling at the time.