Dylan Waco

Except for the fact that he did effectively beat three guys. He eliminated two and had the third guy locked up and done for when the other guys intervened. I'll take that over a pinfall or sub first loss for The Shield for sure, but that was a transparently idiotic way to give them their first loss

How did Extreme Rules not look liked a stacked show last week? Unless I'm forgetting something the only match that wasn't obvious at the end of Raw last week was Ambrose v. Kofi. I thought Raw was pretty terrible myself and while I enjoyed the aforementioned six-man I was disappointed by it.

Decent match. Both guys worked hard with the time they were given. Not in the same universe as high end Masters/Drew Mac Superstars matches

At the time I said that Bourne v. Chavo match was the best match I saw from anywhere on Earth in 2008. I watched some of this stuff a few years back and was pretty high on it but lost my reviews.

I really love some of the Owen/Yoko matches. Really an underrated team in hindsight. I may watch some of that soon

Is he a hall of famer? By WON standards to my mind no. Having said that if he retired tomorrow he'd get in as soon as he was eligible on work alone. Top 20 American worker? Very possible, perhaps likely, but I would want to go back and watch a lot of the indie stuff with the benefit of hindsight. I have no doubt that a lot of it holds up well, but I still like to look at stuff in the rear view before I make concrete declarations about things like that. Still I would think he's top twenty for sure. I wouldn't rule out discussion of him as top ten. I think he's been overrated by internet fans some over the years, not in the sense that they hold him in abnormally high esteem, but in the sense that when you have your various lists/polls/et I think he gets the benefit of the doubt more than anyone else. Better in the last decade? In the 00's I thought he was probably the second best guy after Rey. If by decade we are talking last ten years? Bryan has a very good case. Not sure I'd put him over Rey, though Rey has more down time which effects the equation some. I actually think you could make a reasonable argument for Cena during that period too.

I could see the argument that counting every time someone falls to the ground is tedious, compared to every time someone is pinned

There was an early 06 Battle Royal on SD to crown a champion that was really, really good

I'm not saying it's uniformly bad gimmick. I'm saying it's a gimmick that many guys struggle with, particularly in finding good ways to integrate the "four corner" stip into the match in a way that adds to it.

Bullrope is one of many "touch the four corners" matches. What you often see in those matches is some fun stuff, some violent spots, et. but an incomplete match because most guys aren't clever enough to come up with interesting ways to make the "touch the four corners" gimmick look good. I can think of plenty of matches like that with decent enough bodies and weak/boring finishes that don't fit the rest of the match. What is unique about Colon/Hansen is that they work with the gimmick to the point where it adds to the match.

Fire Match is a gimmick with obvious limitations. Colon v. Ayala was as good a fire match as you could possibly have. Coal Miner's Glove is a match that can present problems. Not sure it is innately inhibiting, but there are easy ways to badly botch it. Hennig v. Assassin had a really good one in Portland especially when you consider how short the pole they were using was. Scaffold Match is usually dreaded. Greene/Jarrett is a good one as is Ware/Dundee (really good one). Chicky Starr v. Invader 3 is a great one.

What is inhibiting about Texas Death stip? LMS is basically extension of Texas Death stip and is probably the single gimmick match most likely to result in quality match.

"Rises to the level of art?" Have you been to MoMA lately?

Exposer has been watching Velocity matches lately, I assume he has something of value to say about Nunzio or will soon, so I am nudging this. I've said a lot about him already, and will add more to this thread soon, but I actually think he's one of the most versatile wrestlers of the last twenty years.

Probably gonna read his book soon which I hear his good. Partially as a result of that I'm gonna go back and watch some matches. The other day I watched a really good brawl he had with JBL, but didn't bother to do a true write up of it. Still it's pretty much exactly what you want out of those two, with two "tough" guys slugging it out and engaging big shots with their fists and boots. I was surprised by how well JBL bumped as I had no real recollection of him being a strong bumper. Holly hit a great looking dropkick and a sweet looking diving clothesline. I was surprised by how organic the Alabama Slam counter of a piledriver attempt looked to. Holly ends up busted open during the commercial break and the match gets stopped with an absolutely vicious post-match beatdown that saw Holly eat a Balls Mahoney-level chairshot. Segment ends with Taker crucifying Orlando Jordan, which was probably a really stupid idea at the time, but seems unbelievably awful in hindsight. This match made me want to seek out more Holly and I will, but it also really made me want to find the Taker v. JBL matches from the Summer of 05 on SD which I remember being really great.

Worth noting that AS is now considered a badge of honor and widely self diagnosed within certain online subcultures.

I thought it was at best the third best match on the show. Possibly fourth best.

That match was really good? Really? It got a ton of time, but there were a half dozen "What the fuck do we do now?" moments and that is the most ridiculous RKO out of nowhere finish ever. It was okay I guess

This wins the award for point of view I disagree with most on this board in the month of April

Big Show, Del Rio and Cesaro are the three best guys in the company so far this year

Honestly if I was Dave I would find it nearly impossible to not talk over Bryan

But is that true in itself or by design? It has often been argued by types like Matysik and Meltzer that if you can get over in one territory, then you can get over in any territory. I think that argument is obviously inductive to the point of ridiculous. I'd say if you can get over in at least two territories of significantly different expectations, then you can probably get over in almost any territory. So do you think Sin Cara was at all set up to fail like practically any act in WWE who haven't been chosen by the big wigs to be their top guy? On that note, the blue lighting during Sin Cara's matches is really dumb. The territories haven't been around in almost thirty years. Matysik himself has scoffed at the notion of Mexicans and Japanese wrestlers getting over in the States, which tells you a lot about Larry and wrestling promoters who came out of that era. I don't see how you can argue Cara was set up to fail. He was presented as a pretty big deal, got a unique special entrance/aesthetic for his matches, the WWE allegedly was going to the trouble to hire guys specifically to work with him when they realized he was awful against the vast majority of the active roster, et.

I think Sin Cara was a transparently bad pick up in hindsight. Being a great draw in CMLL means less than nothing in WWE. Sin Cara had very few logical opponents from the jump, stylistically was a totally different worker than Rey (which tomk has talked about before) and was incapable (and allegedly unwilling) of delivering promos to get himself over. The mask, lighting, et got him over with kids for a while, but I don't think it's surprising things turned out as they did.

This isn't true at all. If you follow the big picture on The Roadies there were as many disappointments with them as drawing cards in the AWA than anything else. The consistent link with stronger crowds in 84/85 isn't The Roadies - it's Blackwell. That's an interesting interpretation. Do you see the Road Warriors as a HOF act? If not, which teams would you rate higher as historical candidates? KrisZ, again, this is the greatest thread of all time. It's actually not that interesting an interpretation aside from the fact that it goes against the narrative that The Roadies were huge draws all the time everywhere. I like Matt Farmer but one of the more cringeworthy things in recent HoF related debates was Matt's contention over at Classics that The Roadies often tripled attendance in the AWA - in a thread filled with results that showed no such thing. The Roadies are in the HoF and should be. Influential team, draws in a many different places, hugely over act, et. But the AWA run was not a high point. At their best moments in the AWA they were part of a successful package with other other entities. I see little evidence to indicate they were the driving force behind AWA successes during that period.

I think Ambrose can be over the top - the hand thing is not one of those times in my view. We disagree and it's pointless to discuss it because it's pure interpretation.