Dylan Waco

Yeah. He carried his weight well and looked about the same as Backlund to me, size-wise. He was very credible opposite Bock when they worked each other, which admittedly is completely different than what he would have been asked to do as a WWWF champ. One thing I will say about Backlund is that his insane conditioning and health freak status is something that might be overlooked in this discussion. I still don't think he was the only living person who could have had that run from a pure talent/fitting the mold perspective (I honestly think Brunzell and possibly even Martel though he was young could have done very well), but it is possible he was the only living person who could have put in the work with so few injuries (any?) over that period of time.

Is this even possible?

Still a Hamrick staple. I THINK he still does the Fuerza bump semi-regularly too.

Not necessarily, Ole was briefly able to get Piper blackballed by most NWA promoters when he walked out. I knew this was going to get brought up as soon as I posted that but I think the circumstances are different - Patera was a proven star all over at that point and was in tight with Muchnick's gang. With Piper he was already seen as something of a wild child and his biggest promotional ally at that point was the "old coot" in Portland who wasn't known for pulling strings/playing cards as much as the others.

This whole post is excellent but I wanted to respond to these two things. On Valentine I would note that while I agree with much of what you are saying here, I think it is probable that he would have given up NJPW at that point, but more importantly I'm not sure NWA promoters could have done a whole to block the belt going to Valentine in 83. IIRC the power was already waning dramatically by that point of the board. I could be wrong and if so correct me. Having said that I agree that it could have been something of a problem on paper and for that reason likely never would have been proposed unless Harley, Terry and Jack were all completely off the table as options. I do think Valentine was the best option of the guys who weren't tied up in New York, the AWA or former champs, but it was probably never going to get to that point. On David - thanks for saying this. I think the "David as NWA champ" stuff is totally overblown. I have no doubt that his name was mentioned favorably and talked up in some quarters - just as Ted was and Patera was. But I think of those three he would have been a distant third in terms of a guy who could have gotten the votes, had the confidence of promoters and been effective in that role.

Another brief note about 81 Georgia. It could be argued that Ga was seen as a bit of rouge promotion at that point. In fact I think it is pretty much inarguable that it was seen that way by some. People were pissed about the allegedly unauthorized title switch to Rich in April from Harley and some were really uncomfortable about TBS and everything that came with it (i.e. possible incursions into "their" territories). In that context walking out on GA probably sounds worse than it actually was in the eyes of many promoters

I don't think Ivan is a great choice, I was just saying realistically he was RIGHT THERE and in wrestling sometimes it happens that they'll go with convenience rather than what is the best choice. You will likely not agree at all, but I think Ivan in 83 had a more realistic chance of happening than Patera in 81. If Ivan did get the title, I don't think it would have been in June but likely later. More of a 30-60-day sort of reign. Granted, that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade, but they could have built it up in various ways. NWA vs. old WWWF, USA vs. USSR etc. etc. Plus Nikita is around the corner. I'm not saying it's a great scenario, but if Race wasn't there I can see them looking at it as a possibility. I would be willing to listen to an argument that Ivan in 83 would have been a better pick than Patera in 81. Willing to listen to it mainly because I am an Ivan fan, think he's underappreciated (not unlike Patera really) and would be interested to see someone make the case. Still I don't believe it. Having said that I have no clue what would make anyone think Ivan in 83 was a more likely NWA titleholder than Patera in 81. I don't want to shit on Ivan. He had a great career and in my eyes is an HoFer. I'd more than likely vote for him over Patera if forced to choose just one (though it's close). But the circumstances and timing involved were not at all in his favor in 83, nor were the politics. Ivan was a guy who had gone outlaw before and had some rough dealings with promoters IIRC. He had been used a lot in tags in the years prior, including some hot runs in Georgia to be sure, but he was nowhere near his absolute peak as a star in wrestling. It's very hard to see how or why he would have been chosen in 83 - if convenience was an issue/connections to Crockett was a major factor it strikes me that Valentine would have been a vastly better pick. He was in his prime as a worker and a star, had the back history with Flair, was a MACW guy, had worked major singles feuds there to great effect and even had a connection to the "older" generation through his dad. 83 was to some degree Crockett's first big shot across the bow in terms of presenting itself as a national product. We can argue about how much of the show was about that, but I think it's hard to argue for Ivan at that point in his career as the guy you want in the role opposite Flair. As for Patera in 81 we know he was considered (or at least to the extent we "know" anything about what NWA promoters were talking about at that time). Kris is right to point about that he ditched Georgia out of nowhere in the Summer, but I would keep two things in mind when thinking about how relevant that would have been. 1. As best as I can tell he left Georgia no early then the first week in August. Flair won the World title in the middle of Sept. That means at most there was a six week gap between these two events. My point? I don't know off hand when the NWA board of directors meeting was in 1981, but the decision to put the belt on Flair was almost certainly made long before Patera left Georgia. It's actually more likely Patera left Georgia because he thought he was spinning his wheels in an NWA territory and wasn't going to get the title, then it is that he didn't get the title BECAUSE he up and left Georgia (for the record I don't believe that for a second). 2. Patera leaving Georgia didn't seem to bother Sam Muchnick, who in 1981 was still at worst one of the most powerful figures in the NWA, albeit a figure who was on his way out. How do I know this? The last date we have for Patera in Ga is August 3rd with Dusty retaining the NWA title by DQ. Then he works August 7th in St. Louis second from the top v. Jack Brisco with Dusty v. Flair up top. He was a no show for defending the Ga title v. Rich on the 9th and was stripped of the title. What was his punishment for this? Well he worked what was effectively a co-main event in St. Louis a month later v. Brisco in a Texas Death Match (Harley v. Kerry on last). Ah yes, but he lost you say. True. But he was the semi-main on the very next show yet again and by the October show - about two and half months after his heinous sin against the NWA - Patera main evented St. Louis and WON the Missouri Title beating Jack Brisco. Patera debuted in the AWA the next night and it is only then that he starts to slip a wee bit down the cards in St. Louis (though not far really at all - he was always a semi-main/main event level guy there). My point? Even if the Georgia ordeal happened before the decision to put the belt on Flair (virtually no way this is true), perhaps the single biggest power broker in the NWA was still pushing him on the biggest, most star packed shows in the NWA. (As an aside Patera was also working Houston - perhaps the best payday outside of the WWWF in wrestling at that point - during this point as well. I believe at this point Bock had points in the office there and it seems very possible the decision to go work with Verne was made through those channels at that point). Going beyond this I think the contrast with Ivan in 83 is pretty stark. Unlike Ivan, Patera was at his absolute peak at that point (you could argue his "peak" ended when he left Georgia - I would probably say it ended when he hit the AWA in Oct, after the Flair title win). In the previous years he had been wildly successful drawing card as a challenger and opponent in multiple places to Andre, Dusty, Pedro, Backlund and Bruno. Those are also probably five of the top seven or eight babyfaces in the country from that point if not THE five top babyfaces in the country at that point. He had worked high on the cards everywhere and main evented most of the big wrestling towns in Canada and the U.S. during that period, including the big one off towns like Toronto and St. Louis where he seemed to be in particular demand. He was considered a very good worker during the period, if not a great worker. Judging by his placement on cards in St. Louis and the way Matysik puts him over even now, he was likely a guy Muchnick enjoyed a ton, if not an outright Muchnick favorite. Because he had worked all the biggest promotions and towns and feuded with all the hottest babyfaces (including guys like Atlas and Rich who were hot, if not quite at the level of the others listed though Rich is arguable), it seems pretty obvious that Patera was one of the top heels in wrestling. And not one of as in "top dozen or so." One of us in "top handful or so." One of as in in 1981 when the decision was made you could make a reasonable argument that over the course of the previous five years Patera was the biggest national heel star to the extent that there was such a thing at that point. Not sure even I would go to bat for that statement, but its not ludicrous at all. After Harley and maybe Terry (I'd have to look at his dates as he was spending a ton of time in Japan) both of whom had the benefit of being past/current NWA champs it's actually hard for me to even think of who would else would have been in the running. It's actually hard to see how he wasn't a bigger star than Flair at that particular point in time. In any case the point isn't that Patera should have got a run or could have done better than Flair or anyone else for that matter. It's that he had a pretty strong case at that point in time. Certainly a stronger case than Ivan had in 83.

Brody is a non-starter for the reasons you mention Khawk, though I do admit that as much as I hate him you could have done a compelling angle around him and Flair having the big match. On the other hand Crockett was an area he never really meant shit in and it would have been incredibly odd to pin that first big massive show on Flair v. a guy who was never a world champ before and had no track record as a star/draw in that area

There is a massive difference between 81 and 83. 83 I think Race or Jack are the only real options. If for some reason they decided not to go with former NWA champ I think Ivan is a poor choice for a bunch of reasons I will cover later if pressed (at work). Valentine would be the best option in that unlikely scenario as he had previous history with Flair and had long time value in MACW. 81 there are many viable options. I think there Patera is the best pick though I'm biased. Again I can explain in detail later if pressed

I can't see Dusty agreeing to be a heel in that spot at that point

I only listened to the tail end of this live, but will try and go back and listen to more tonight. As usual I have pretty big disagreements with you guys. I was glad Pater/Rheingans v. Badd Company wasn't buried, but to me it was clearly the second best match of the bunch of stuff you watched after Kerry v. Lawler. I also like Nikita v. Larry a good bit more than you guys, though I don't think it's a hidden classic or anything. Biggest disagreement is the Manny/Wahoo strap match. During nominations Will theorized that I just have a problem with four corner gimmick matches like that and there is probably something to that. Having said that I watched this match more than any other match on the set during the process and at no point has it risen in any real way in my eyes. Colon v. Hansen is probably a top five singles matches I've ever seen with a similar gimmick and Vader/Sting is outstanding with the same gimmick - Wahoo/Manny just wasn't very good. Not a bad match or anything, but I love the vast, vast majority of stuff on this set and this match doesn't even approach that category. I do my rankings in a weird way and I"m a long way from done with them, but right now it's 146 on my ballot - one spot ahead of the Wahoo/Zenk tag incidentally. I could see it sliding up a couple of spots, but I don't see anyway it could break into the top 140.

A 5-6 interim reign is hardly going to tarnish anyone. Think of Steamboat who was an interim champ for less than that. I don't think it HAS to go to a former champ. It had to go to someone who was going to be a reasonably big deal for Flair to beat.

I'm not sure Race at that point is the most interesting question mark. Flair in 81 is far more interesting to me because Flair was far from a sure thing at that point and there were other guys out there that would have been just as strong - if not better at the time - picks.

No clue about that, but Bailey is still around and working Anarchy regularly.

Really pissed at TNA as they had a chance to redo finish of Chikara ppv finish, even teased it and then didn't do it. That would have been awesome as you would have then had the greatness of Chikara fetishists extolling the virtues of one as the greatest thing ever, while also shitting on the TNAness of the other. Oh well. Bully v. Sting was actually a pretty good brawl up until the finish of chaos. I would have preferred Sting sell the piledrivers more, but it was a solid escalating match even with the spot where the stage hand forgot to put the right weapon under the ring and Bully had to run to the back to get a chair. The bit with the ring planks being exposed was actually a cool idea. Shame it was wasted with that finish. Sting looked pretty old in this I thought, especially on offense

I love that angry/Crow Sting version of AJ just looks like a rich kid, living off his dad's trust fund, who stays out late at the bar and then bums it around the golf course every day. I have no clue who the fuck thought it was a good idea to build this match around Kurt Angle knee injury, but man. AJ was working hard at first, but this match was Anglerific as hell and I don't understand the point of Angle winning. Yuck

Last Knockout Standing match was totally psychotic. I don't know what it says about TNA that match involving Gail Kim and Drew Mac's literally insane ex is the clear match of the night up to this point, but it really was. Several crazy, dangerous bumps and an absolutely nuts finish.

I have watched a lot of 2013 indie Gunner to the point where I would rate him above anyone else in this match so far this year....but then I have been avoiding TNA so maybe I missed something decent. Anyhow this four way tag had it's moments if you could get over the stupidity of the first elimination. I thought Aries and Chavo looked sharp and I suspect the Storm/Gunner team could be really good in a fantasy world where they won't work in TNA

It was fine. Dixie's speech was shit and Angle's was confused, but the video was fine.

TNA's second Hall of Famer? Kurt Angle! The split screen of Kurt watching his own HoF hype video is fucking hilarious.

HOly shit what a complete piece of shit the D-Von/Joe Park/Abyss thing was. How the fuck is it possible they are running fewer ppv's and this is how they book them now?

Ha! Okay I am watching Sam Shaw v. Jay Bradley on ppv right now. I mean look, I have nothing against Bradley, guy works hard, is pretty good and has a decent look aside from terrible hair. But how the fuck is Sam Shaw employed even on short term basis by a major promotion? This will sound like typical Dylan troll, but Shaw is not even a top thirty South Ga/North Fl indie guy. Not even close really.

Six-man was perfectly watchable for a match with terrible heel team. I mean it wasn't any good, but it should have been way worse. I like how every Samoa Joe match has a thirty or forty second stretch where you remember he was once one of the two or three best guys on Earth and then you just sort of feel sad.

God help me I'm watching this. I have no beef with Chris Sabin, but that first match was one of the more egregious interpretive dance routines I can recall seeing. I also thought it was insane to have Sabin work that match given his history and didn't see how he got busted open. I assume Suicide is now being played by TJP. Hogan promo/angle with Aces and Eights just now was fucking hilarious for all the wrong reasons

Brunzell was 6'2 and had been working heavyweights. He was never really booked as a light heavyweight in the AWA that I can remember even though he was a "High Flyer."