Dylan Waco

That JR caption is wonderful Also I keep waiting for John to drop by the Kobashi bio thread Yohe started at Classics and it hasn't happened to my great dismay

Where is the evidence on the Steph/Randy stuff? I don't think it's impossible at all, but if someone is going to say they are 99% sure it's true I would hope they have more than just "well Vince never worked with Randy again and he worked with everyone else and Lanny didn't say it was definitely false so..."

Noted, for the next time someone accuses me of being the king of hyperbole

This sort of "if not X who?" thing is not always my cup of tea, but this came up at Classics sometime back and I do think it's an interesting question. I think in general most people here accept the fact that Hogan was the guy who was going to drive national expansion. There was no one else at the time who could have done it, at least not to the degree he did. But Backlund is a different story. The purpose of this thread is not to shit on Backlund. I have really grown to appreciate Backlund more over the years and it annoys me that so many people still seem to cringe at the thought of giving him any credit as a worker, draw or star. Still Backlund is a guy who was a seemingly odd pick for the slot he was thrown into. No question he was successful at it and I think it's a waste of time to speculate heavily about whether anyone could have done better, because in truth he did pretty damn good. Having said that he does not strike me as a guy like Hogan, who could not have been reasonably replaced by anyone. So the question is what happens if Backlund isn't in the picture? The story that has been told is that Backlund was mentioned as a possibility for the role by other promoters (I may be remembering this wrong but don't think I am) and of course Billy Graham himself has said many times that he was told by Vince Sr. the day he would win the belt and the day he would drop it and that is exactly what happened. The point here is that this was planned out well in advance, which means some hot up and comer, or a pick who was completely off the map/i.e. hadn't broken in before Graham won the belt really isn't an option. Of course one argument is that the belt would have been kept on Graham, but I think that's very unlikely because the WWWF was not a heels territory and while we often hear about how Graham was over and getting face reactions in places A. I'm not sure how true that is and B. It is even less likely that he would have been allowed to turn face as a champ, then it is that they would have kept the title on him as a heel. Another argument is that they would have gone back to Bruno yet again, but one assumes if that was going to happen Graham would have never gotten his reign (more likely a Stasiak length transition reign at best) in the first place which screws up the whole thought experiment and more importantly I think you can make a strong case that the whole purpose of the Backlund reign was to get a new, young, fresh star in which Bruno obviously wasn't. After that the list of guys who theoretically could have been chosen is long, but I'm not sure how many are really reasonable when you think about it for more than a few seconds. Some at Classics said Andre, but that was never going to happen - he was a special attraction and there was more money in him being farmed out without the title, to say nothing of the fact that Andre as champ would have gone against the general logic of how freakshows were booked back then. Terry Funk was mentioned, but I just can't see it. He wasn't really a "young gun" anymore, and while he would have been fresh in those markets, he doesn't seem like the sort of blank slate fit that they Vince Sr. may have been looking for. Patera was a name mentioned and I don't think he's an outlandish pick because he was a good worker, who could work the schedule and had value. The problem is he would have had to have been brought in as a face and the generally consensus is that he was a vastly better heel. Other picks who I think would have been stronger/fit the mold better than the above: Rick Martel - The French Canadian thing would have probably hurt him, but he had the right look, could work, was young and already had several years of experience at this point. He was pretty much the quintessential babyface and probably could have done well in the role. I think he had already established himself well with some power brokers at this point, but I'm not sure if anyone would have gone to bat for him and that's one of the things that helped Backlund. Ted Dibiase - He's a little bit off timeline here. He was working in 77 when Graham took the title, but was really green. While he was part of the West Texas State group, connected to the Funks and in with Watts, I'm not sure Muchnick or any other guys who really had Vince's ear would have been pimping him as early as 77. On the other hand he had the right look and was seen by many as a really talented babyface worker with a bright future straight out of the gates. Honestly I struggle to see him as a real option at that point in his career, but I suspect he would be a popular pick with some. Steve Keirn - I am pretty iffy on Florida history, but Keirn broke in there in the early 70's IIRC, and was well connected to Eddie through Mike which would have helped a good bit at the time. It's possible he was even mentioned by Eddie to Vince when he was surfing around looking for a possible "new face." Good worker, was supposedly a pretty tough guy which may have won him extra points, was definitely seen by some as an up-and-comer and prospect during the rough time frame in question. It's kind of hard to conceptualize a Fab, let alone Skinner, in Backlund's spot but he actually seems like someone who would have been a pretty reasonable alternative in some ways. Tony Atlas - In many ways he doesn't work on the surface and may belong more in the "less likely" group. BUT, he did have a great look, he was a guy had some big supporters of note over the years, he was a guy who could have worked excellent power spots which was a NY staple, he was young, he was fresh, and as un-PC as it is he was "ethnic" in a territory known for it's "ethnic" stars. I have no clue how tenable the idea of a black champion was up there at that point, but the place that made Pedro the ace leads me to believe it wouldn't have been off the table. Jim Brunzell - As with Keirn it's kind of funny to think of a Killer Bee in this role, but I actually think Brunzell is the absolute best pick if we assume Senior was looking for a young, up and comer, with a clean cut All-American look. I think Brunzell more closely fits the look and general disposition associated with Backlund then any others, but they weren't all that similar otherwise. Brunzell was a very solid hand, who could mix it up and work stiff, had a nice collection of highspots, was very good working fiery comebacks and was a solid mat worker for the era. He was probably not as well connected as some, but by all accounts had a good reputation in the business and by 77 he already had experience pushed in a large territory, near the top of the cards albeit in a tag team setting more often than not. If I were booking New York and operating under the assumed McMahon framework Brunzell would have probably been my pick, but I'm not sure he is even someone who would have come up in discussions at the time. I'm sure I'm forgetting other people and it's entirely possible some of them are obvious picks. Of course one can always trot out the "we have no way of knowing" or "someone not on the radar" comments, but I'd prefer people in the thread at least entertain the possibilities that existed out there at the time when contributing in this thread.

This is easy to say when you don't make part of the money you need to feed yourself (let alone your family) from writing. I have shared forums with deplorable people, was once edited by a quasi-fascist (literally), have written for horrible venues (and amazingly some good ones despite my relative lack of talent) and once accepted an absurdly large amount of money to write a middling column about pro wrestling for a short lived website funded by Steve Forbes and Bill Bennett (probably two of the twenty or so living Americans I have the least respect for). I am not a fan of Bleacher Report really, but it's a good paying gig for some good writers. My guess is evilclown wouldn't be able to afford to write quality books like Shooters or Total MMA if he didn't have a more regular gig. I've had my arguments with Snowden in the past, but shitting on a writer who has produced very good content (and is apparently working on another wrestling book which I would be interested to know the details of) because he chooses to be paid well to write for a high traffic site is fucking stupid.

He does get paid

The idea that they were "heating" Henry up is laughable.

Was talking about this with Loss the other day and looking through the archives I don't think this has ever been explored in a thread. Of course to some degree this is subjective/opinion and then there are always strange quirks like Ice Train being hugely over in my hometown for unexplained reasons. But really what I am looking for here is people who were consistently more popular than their push would indicate. In general I think this is kind of murky territory because there are guys like Rey who I think were theoretically over enough to be "A" level stars but were still used in a way that was of massive value to the company he was in, so I could sort of see an argument for him either way. On the other hand there is a guy like Jericho who really seems like he has always been more over than his push, barring one or two brief periods - and yet I have no confidence in the notion of him as an "ace" type guy. I am actually really interested to see what other names pop up in this thread.

My best guess is a rebranding. I heard a rumor some months back that I shared with a few people from this board privately. I'm still a little iffy about talking about it publicly, but the gist of it was that all these "Wrestling is...." and various National Pro Wrestling Day quasi-feds were Quack fronts that he had set up because it's unwise to cheat on your rich wife, who might eventually come after you and try and take the name/company she financed. No clue of the truth of that but it's something I heard a while back

Already is a thread like that in the Megathread Forum. One name that hasn't been mentioned as a potential top ten guy is Ricky Morton. I'm not saying he would definitely be in mine, but I'd strongly consider him.

I think Marty's best opportunities actually would have been as a heel. He knows how to work people up and while Shawn was always a heel you wanted to cheer, Marty at times feels like a face you want to boo. I watched a match he had with Scorpio from last week a couple of days ago and was pretty shocked at how good crippled, old Marty was as a heel even now

Why limit it to four? Honestly if you are trying to cover the "definitive" guys my first thought is to go with the guys who were active/heavily active for the vast majority of the decade and working at a very high level the whole time. Funk, Buddy and Bock are guys I love to the point where I would not argue against anyone who had anyone of them number one ever, but they both have big holes. If you were asking me to pick just four I'd say Flair, Lawler, Fujinami and Hansen, though I can see obvious arguments for Jumbo. Of course if it was me I'd just watch stuff from all of these guys

Didn't give a shit about the main event one way or the other. I agree with the consensus that Brock's selling carried the match, but I don't want to see Brock working underneath for the God King Game. The problem is there is no good way to book HHH, particularly as a face. Or at least no way in which I am going to have any interest. I thought the match was fine, but I really hope I never have to watch a HHH match again

Show survived an RKO and RKO on a chair and lost via punt. Ryback tackled Cena through a wall of electrical stuff/lights on the stage for a double KO. They were the best two matches on the show so far

Yep, my stream was complete dogshit down the stretch of this which is too bad because I saw the great bulk of it and it appeared to be as good a "clash of the titans" hoss v. hoss match as you are going to see in a match like this. Will definitely need to catch the replay but I liked the underdog Cena act on the front end and the "reckless and will try anything Cena on the back end. Ryback selling is hit or miss, but this looked good and the finish was nuts.

I thought Orton/Show was a great match and this is coming from someone who has no interest in Orton at all. Show worked that match exactly how a giant should work and I give Randy credit for holding up his end as well too. Loved the way Show kept cutting down his weaponry attempts early, the big bump through the ladder was sick, Show being able to survive the RKO's was a fun touch that fits a "giant" and the finish was a cool surprise. I could have done without ORton's celebration before the pinfall on the punt, but otherwise I thought the match was great.

I really don't think the tag match needed anymore time than it got, but Exposer is right that HHH v. Brock is probably going to be dreadfully long.

I'm not sure if it just stood out in contrast to the way the other matches have been worked, but I loved the tag title match. Texas Tornado matches should be shortish, high energy, sprints and this match was exactly that. Loved all of the saves and the tag work by both teams. Finish looked really cool too.

I wish they had kept the Ron Wright finish, but I liked that match fine. Nowhere near as good as there best two matches from SD, but for two guys I don't care about they worked hard.

I think pretending Henry's win at Mania meant anything goes against everything that has happened since then. It hasn't been talked about or pushed at all. Ryback was pushed opposite Cena immediately after the loss, which was presented as a fluke anyhow.

Mark Henry is pretty clearly back to being WWE's Meng after that match. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.

Hey Ambrose won, that was cool. First part of the match was completely unwatchable thanks to my fucking POS stream, but the ending run seemed good

Fandago v. Jericho was okay. I didn't hate it, but it felt really by the book, almost like both guys were horrified to even attempt anything different. Hard to get a real feel for it because my stream is unbelievably bad

CZW Best of The Best XII Jonathon Greshem v. Caleb Konley v. Biff Busick I kind of have a soft spot for Greshem as he is the ultimate in undersized guys who works hard and tries to make the most out of the fact that he's far too small to ever get a real shot. He was clearly the best guy in this taking some lunatic bumps and throwing some stiff as fuck forearms. But this is a match that really had no business being anything other than a spot running affair and for some reason the first seven or eight minutes of this were "feeling things out" schtick, which really made the spot running stuff feel really artificial. Konley had his burst and then got ambushed out by interfering heels which also seemed really out of place, especially in an opener. I loved Greshem's power spots down the stretch, but there is an exchange of rolling around/reversals right before the finish that is literally one of the worst things I've ever seen in a wrestling match. This wasn't very good. Shane Hollister v. Alex Reynolds v. Tommy End Musgrave told me that Tommy End looked like he was a big CM Punk fan and he wasn't kidding. I am not sure aping ECW era CM Punk look is quite on the level of Chuck Simms doing a "Pretty Boy" Doug Somers tribute gimmick in 1987 Montreal while teaming with Sweet Daddy Siki, but it's not terrible far off. Anyhow this match has a tornado DDT on the floor about a minute into it. I really have no clue what to do with that. I mean when you start with a tornado DDT on uncovered floor where do you go? I enjoy Reynolds against the right guy and the theoretically sound psychology of having End taken out of the match by that spot to hide the obvious problem of all triple threats was sound, but then that really doesn't happen and this turns into a bunch of dangerous but cooperative looking three way exchanges and then it ended and I was happy. Rich Swann v. Shane Strickland v. Alex Colon Man this had some stupid shit in it, but I did like the bulk of it. The theme of guys going for dives and being stopped and/or stopping themselves was pretty amusing and a couple of the flubs in this actually made the match look more authentic and dangerous. Colon being a straight heel and the other guys trying to work to eliminate him was a good base for the match, though the abandoned it. Some of the stuff toward the back end of this was just goofy, but I was actually really happy that Colon won as some real heeling in subsequent rounds could help some of these matches and Colon definitely worked as a true heel in this. AR Fox v. Uhaa Nation v. Andrew Everett Chiva Kid's gear was totally absurd, but it may have actually been superior to the gear/look Everett is sporting now. Trying to think of a good comparison here and the best I can come up with is half Chris Hero, half 1991 Shawn Michaels. This is a complete spotfest, which is really what you want out of this and I think Fox and Everett both looked really good. Lots of nutty rope running spots, rana's springboards, insane dives, et. Everett takes a crazed head bump at the one, then tops it later by eating a backcracker/powerbomb combo that looked like it could have literally killed him. I keep hearing about how awesome Nation is from the spotathon fans, but I thought he sucked shit for big portions of this. There was one point where he was completely clueless about a spot with Fox and he horrible telegraphed a couple of other spots. The guy just has no clue how to base/set up for a big spot without making it look completely obvious. Thankfully he had two guys in here who would kill themselves for his power spots, so it wasn't as annoying as it would have been in most cases. Not sure what the craziest thing in this was. Maybe Fox's imploding flip plancha, maybe Everett airballing on a double moonsault where he cleared half the ring. Fox made a good attempt at leading Nation through once it was just the two of them, though I thought the match lost a lot once Everett was eliminated. Either way this was easily the best match so far. Rory Mondo v. Ron Mathis - Fans Bring The Weapons Pre-match some dude was taunting Matt Tremont and it turned into one of the nastiest punch exchanges I've ever seen as they brawled off punching each other as hard as they could in the face. I like Tremont, so I was kind of pissed, but then these guys started hitting each other with tack filled baseball bats, X-Box's, Lucky Charm's boxes covered in barbed wire and bags of flour and they won me over. Yeah this is complete reckless, senselessly violent and insane, but it was really entertaining. Also this match probably had the least overkill of any match on the show up to this point as Mathis won with a diving tombstone off the top through a guardrail, which would have almost assuredly been a transition move in that Tommy End match. And they even did a stretcher job post-match. DJ Hyde v. Michael Dante I know DJ Hyde sucks, but how is it possible a guy has been around wrestling as long as him and has never learned how to run the ropes. I don't expect Alex Porteau level rope running out of a guy as mediocre as him, but you think he would have mastered the art of bouncing forward off of an Irish whip in a semi-convincing fashion. But nope, that's too much to ask. He does say fuck a bunch of times though. Thankfully this is short and ends appropriately enough after an exchange of awful looking spears. Jonathon Greshem v. Alex Colon I liked the fact that they teased Greshem's octopus finisher early, but I was annoyed about their decision to work your typical indie rope running/mat exchange spots on the front end of this. It was fine, but Colon worked straight heel in the first round and I thought it helped that match a lot. He eventually works heel once he took over here, but would it have killed them to have some shine with the heel actually looking overmatched and frustrated by it? Greshem ends up taking some really terrifying headbumps in this and while I give the guy credit for taking the punishment, it was really too much, even for a tourney like this where you expect overkill. This was disappointing, though I will say that it did have the death blow finish, you want out of a match of this ilk. AR Fox v. Tommy End This match was like the best and worst of AR Fox. On the one hand he seemed to reign in End's worst excesses. The match was basically constructed as a sort of heat segment, with Fox working off of it and hitting offensive flurries before being cut back down. I can't imagine End having the sense to do that and Fox's selling was half decent, so I give him most of the credit for this. On the other hand a lot of his usually impressive stuff looked really off here. His dives in particular were really crummy and he almost killed himself on the corner flip spot. Even the finishing 450 looked flat. Match was okay, which I guess is the best that really could have been hoped for. Sami Callihan v. Adam Cole This was put over and worked as a blow off match to multi-year long feud. As a result of that we got some ref bumps, melodramatics from Cole and shots with the title belt. Unfortunately we also got a couple of stupid ass Canadian Destroyer spots from Cole. Still the bulk of this was very good, largely because when Callihan is on he's as good as anyone on Earth. The opening barrage with Sami going for broke with the big spots was good stuff and a great way to set the tone. The powerbomb into the crowd on Cole was particularly nutty. I am not really a Cole fan, but I'll give him credit for working stiff here which gave Callihan something to work off of with bumps. I thought the flash DVD was especially well done, because that's the sort of thing that often looks like shit or is tossed into a match as an after thought. The Stretch Muffler spots down the stretch were pretty dramatic and while I wasn't in love with the finishing run, it was a logical escalation and pay off. This was not a high end Callihan match, but I did think it was a good match, particularly within the framework they were operating under. AR Fox v. Alex Colon Again I wanted more deliberate heeling from Colon here. I did really like the Fox flip plancha which was a play off of his splat bump at last years show. They end up doing this awful exchange where both guys were trying to counter each guys go to spots, that ended with Colon almost killing both of them with a strange quasi-neckbreaker on the guardrail. Stretch run of this was something. Fox ends up tope-ing the midget woman second of Colon after she interferes. Not sure if I was a guy who had done Thugbait porn, I would have agreed to that spot. Colon kicks out of his finish and then blocks a second attempt with a top rope DVD onto the apron which is about then tenth apron bump spot of the show. Somehow Fox is back up on offense right after this and then loses on a roll up. Colon finally heels it up post-match. I have no clue what to make of any of this. Overall Thoughts: No way I would call this a good show but it was watchable. Callihan and Everett were pretty clearly the best guys on the show. No way would I suggest anyone needed to watch this from beginning to end, but there were a few matches that might be worth going out of your way to see depending on aesthetic preferences.

Love FLIK busting out the Masato Tanaka tribute in his first match. Completely appropriate. Decent match actually. Not bad at all for a first effort