Dylan Waco

Rovert feel free to start a thread specific to this show, Chikara "end," et. It probably merits it even if it goes nowhere

Meant to say this, but I really enjoyed your blogging of the show. I'm not a Chikara fan, but I thought you were very even handed and sensible in your comments on the matches. I only saw the main event which I actually liked more than you and I loved the finish because it seemed to be a hilarious fuck you to all the fans. I mean a complete troll and I cannot wait to see Chikara fans bend themselves backwards to promote it as a "great" finish in keeping with Chikara's traditions or some other such garbage. As a guy who has never liked Chikara I rather loved it for fucked up reasons I admit I think it is the end of "Chikara" but not the end of a company promoted by Mike Quackenbush in this fashion.

I think it's absolutely great that uber-smark, wrestling hipster fed, Chikara just did a NWO-era, WCW finish. Fucking classic. Loved it.

If I were Vince the last thing on Earth I would to do would be anything that would remind people of that particular moment.

Actually on of my all time favorite Lucha brawls was from last year My comments copied from WKO Angel Blanco Jr./El Hijo del Solitario v. El Hijo Del Santo/Villano IV TXT 2/25 YES Fucking five thousand times YES. I will wait for the pro-shot to be sure, but right now I have this ahead of Casas v. Panther fairly easily. That is not a knock on Casas v. Panther either, this match is just fucking awesome. Totally wild, escalating brawl, with all four guys juicing, some of the nastiest punches ever, some crazy spots and a great finish. Villano IV was just insanely great here hitting two wild topes where he splatted on the floor, eating some sick chairshots, selling gut kicks and punches like he was being crippled with pancreatitis, showing awesome fire and his own brand of stiffness during the face come back, clinging onto dudes for single legs when he had nothing left to give, et. On top of this the visual of his bloody head was insane as it looks like Abdullah the Butcher after taking shrapnel from a clusterbomb. The rudos were really tremendous asskickers here, stalking around like total pricks and throwing some savage shots. Blanco has an awesome standoff exchange with Villano IV both during the match and in the tremendous post match brawl that are up there with my favorite moments in wrestling in the last ten years. Solitaro has been a great foil for Santo over the last couple of years and really was tremendous, coming off as a guy livid at the existence of Santo in particular. At one point he crushes him with a punch to the chest that Santo sells like Solitaro is Ox Baker and he is a desperate Fritz Von Erich trying to get more cash flow to pay off his kids coke debts. Later he takes an awesome bump off of a revenge chairshot and his timing on that finishing spot was perfect. Speaking of which Santo was fucking Santo. He is the real deal. He can take punishment, bleed buckets, hit his highspots, sell his ass off, make his comebacks, et and it never stops being exciting. His dives looked great, he had the aforementioned Fred Sanford sell job, he was just right at playing the victim but without relinquishing the nobility of his name and act. And man that finish. What a champ to take that chairshot and splat after that much blood loss and that crazy a match. Getting stretched pretty tightly for the fall was a nice sacrifice as well. Post-match brawl with blood soaked guys competing to get hepatitis by smacking each others heads around was also tremendous. Good luck topping this 2012 Tons of good IWRG stuff has been sadly taken down by Black Terry Jr. which is a shame, but this should still be easy to find from 2010 AAA. Arguably the best match in promotions history and very likely the best singles match of that year (at minimum) Again comments from WKO L.A. Park v. Mesias AAA 12/5 Yea LA Park was good as fuck in that match. He was a great base for Mesias, took some shockingly sick bumps (the sliding face plant on the floor especially), and just generally seemed committed to taking every bit of offense like it was a shotgun blast. The slow motion on that Mesias tope made the forearm shot look really brutal. I also loved his rise from the dead spot where he comes back into the ring and just plants his legs into Mesias legs to pull him into a submission. Match probably would have been just as good with slightly less stuff in the stretch run, but it was sort of reminiscent of Togo v. Ken Kid in the sense that it was a lengthy match carried by a veteran prick heel and even the extraneous bullshit going on around him was not going to stop him from having a great match.

Hacked out a lot of those as I think age, location, et explain why they are non-starters. I think Malenko is an obvious non-starter to, but I want to point that there is great reason to believe people would have been higher on Ted than Joe at that point. Dibiase was already regarded as very charismatic and a strong prospect by that point. Was he a major star? Not really, but he was someone on the radar. Too my knowledge Joe wasn't. Powers was/is considered a head case by many and hard to deal with. I don't think he would have had any chance. I've also heard he had some heat with Bruno thought that may be BS. In any event this was around the time that Powers went full blown outlaw with the IWA - no way in hell he was getting brought in at that point. Martel is (theoretically) on the table and not Tito, because Martel was already something of a star with a lot of experience. He was working upper mid-card many places by that point, including big towns like Houston and Dallas. He was much more established then Tito. Again Martel was an "old" twenty.

I'm not sure there is any real reason to believe this. Does he fit the mold of what Verne liked? Yes. But I actually don't know that he was a babyface that Verne would have promoted well. When I look at babyfaces Verne had success with during the period between the late 70's and mid 80's I don't know where exactly Bob fits - he didn't have the looks of Martel (who was also a flashier worker), he obviously wasn't Hogan, he wasn't an old vet/legend like Mad Dog, Crusher or even the Baron, he didn't have the name Hennig (who frankly didn't get hot as a face until the company was into decline), and while you can certainly find similarities between him and The High Flyers I think there was a pretty big difference in terms of style. I do think Verne would have tried to push Bob and I think Bob was a much better package than Chris Taylor or Brad Rheingans, but I'm not at all certain that Verne would have known how to package him effectively.

I paid no more than 20 a person for the last four or five WWE house shows I went to. Incidentally I love WWE house shows and they have consistently resulted in very good shows for the last several years. Frankly they have been vastly better than the tv tapings I"ve gone to over a similar time frame to the point where when it was announced Raw is coming here on June 24th I was upset about it being a tv show and still haven't gotten tickets (though I will likely get comps this week). Hell one house show I went to back in 09 is probably a top five show I've ever been to - maybe top three. And I've been to tons of wrestling shows.

What's the story with Punk v. Hamrick? Never seen it

Personally I think it's complete bullshit. I'm pretty sure Johnny and others who were fans at the time will tell you that he was losing steam and getting booed often toward the end and that may be true in some buildings against certain opponents - but it really doesn't translate to tape. On top of that you've got people like my Uncle who was also watching and going to shows during that era, who feels like Backlund was always over and never lost much of his luster. In any case Backlund's record as an ace is very strong and I don't think that can be disputed - and I say this as someone who used to be viscerally anti-Backlund in terms of trotting out all the standard excuses (the title drew on it's own, the heels drew, the undercard support propped him up longer than he would have gone on his own, other bullshit, et.).

I have no doubt Garea believes that and I think it's possible he was strung along/led to believe he might get a big singles push at some point, but I don't think there is anyway he would have gotten the Backlund slot, or even the title period. Garea may have been over, but he was firmly established as a tag wrestler in the NYC territory. I'm not saying he couldn't have broken out of that, but it would have been pretty tough to break that mold. Snuka was a no go as PNW was stage one in grooming and NYC didn't push guys in a meaningful way coming out of stage one. I always heard Johnson was a pretty divisive figure.

Didn't they defend the belt in the Kansas City territory too? Or no? I need to get that book. I have held off mostly after following Scott Teal on Facebook and seeing his repellent politics. Should get over it.... I imagine my politics are insane to most people, as mutualism is not exactly well revered by anyone other than mutualists. Still, I cannot imagine what Teal's politics are like and prefer not to know, though you have piqued my interests....

I understand that is the perception. And maybe it is true. But does that stand under scrutiny? Was Dick Slater a made man anywhere he went? Murdoch? DiBiase? They seemed to fluctuate up and down the card depending on how they got over in any given place. The only guy he really seemed to "make" with the belt was Race, who was the local star. (Please keep in mind that these are real questions and not snarky questions. The internet isn't always good about making that clear.) Have you read The Strap yet? I haven't and need to. I realize the guy who wrote it is a St. Louis guy and the title is going to be put over huge obviously, but I am interested to see what it helps add to the picture.

I think in wrestling lore more than anything else. Was it a big deal the next year when Dick the Bruiser and Dick Murdoch traded it back and forth? Or the main belt for a small territory that happened to be run by the President of the NWA? This is slowly turning into a mild pet peeve of mine (is there such a thing?), but I really don't like the idea of calling St. Louis a territory. They had no loop and didn't even run weekly. It just seems like the wrong word. I think the Missouri title was a pretty important title and a clear weather vain of sorts in terms of judging where people were in terms of perception among the "upper crust" of wrestling insiders. It's possible that is all myth, but I don't think it is.

I don't disagree with what you have to say about Dusty, but I'm not sure I see how Bob fits in with the either three NY champs better than Dusty would in paper or in practice. You've watched a lot more Backlund than I have, or at least you've watched it a lot more closely than I have, but I don't see the obvious connection. I also see absolutely zero reason to believe Backlund was a unique enough figure to the degree where "no one could have" other than Bruno is the answer here. That's not a knock on Bob at all - he was given the ball, ran with it and had great success. Far more than he is often given credit for. But in no way do I see him as a transcendent figure like Bruno or Hogan, nor do I see him as a guy so clearly ahead of everyone else as a candidate in 77 with potential, that no one else is even feasible.

A little birdie messaged me about this http://web.archive.org/web/20000303124813/....com/tape70.htm At the bottom John McAdam had this to say in reference to Dibiase. I assure you, Dibiase would have been a hell of a lot more effective as the "non-ethnic whitey" champ the WWF wanted than Bob Backlund. The WWF babyface corps was driven by ethnicism / racism in the 70's, so if you're going to pick a guy based around those parameters, be smart and make Dibiase, who's interviews, ringwork, and charisma blew Backlund's away, your titleholder. So yeah...Just felt like tossing this into the mix.

I'm pretty indifferent to the site and don't read it unless Bix or someone else links me to something there. I just think it's utterly insane to claim you wouldn't take a million dollars to READ a sports website. Back to the subject at hand, but watching The Shield tonight on SD it is interesting how they appear to be being used as a backdrop for Kane/Bryan split. I don't even have a problem with it per se, but putting Ambrose opposite Orton scares the shit out of me even if I think he's the most sensible guy for Ambrose to feud with

The Hogan question has been explored elsewhere in great detail. Short of his death I think Hogan was always going to end up with Vince it was just a matter of when.

I imagine they do enjoy making money writing about wrestling for a major site with high traffic.

I should be clear that people are free to explore the possibility that Vince would not have given a fuck about either thing. I think it's possible if the right established name was doable he would have gone that route. Possible he would have turned to Bruno (though I think it unlikely and if that happens no way Graham gets a long title run). Southerner? MAYBE Dusty, who obviously had the political allies and was a huge star, but beyond Dusty someone would have to make a really compelling argument for me to buy it

I don't think Terry ever really liked working for New York. I don't know that he's ever outright said this, but the way he left and backed out of various deals with them over the years gives me that impression. That's another reason I think Jack Brisco would have been a better option than Terry in 77 if they went the established route - Terry was always a bit of a ramblin man (I am going to be pissed if Johnny Sorrow doesn't respond to that line with an emoticon of some sort) and if I was Senior - who was close with Muchnick - I'm not sure I would want to deal with him at that level. I had no clue Gino was that hot/relevant so early. You learn something new every day.

The fact that you almost certainly would take a million dollars to write an article for BR. No, I wouldn't. Some of us still live by the rules. You couldn't pay me just to read that website. I'd probably stab my eyes out first. Rules? What rules? If you wouldn't take a million dollars to read BR you are either independently wealthy, the most obstinate person on the planet or completely insane.

Kris brings up Greg who I considered mentioning, but I think Greg suffers in one key area where Brunzell doesn't - look. To this day I think a lot of the reason Greg gets more shit than he deserves is that he simply doesn't look tough or imposing. Frankly he doesn't look like a wrestler at all and this is coming from someone who enjoys a lot of his work. There are places where I think that could have been worked around. New York? Well it wasn't as bad as Junior's era, but I still think it would have been a major roadblock for Greg. Of course the other thing with Greg is that he was his father's son. Politically that would have hurt as much as it helped at minimum. At the same time Greg was intensely loyal to his dad and I'm pretty positive Verne wouldn't have wanted him to go for an extended run. So while Greg has some of the positives of Brunzell I think he also has some major negatives/hurdles that Jim wouldn't have had. Gino is an interesting one. I admit I can't really picture it but the guy was super charismatic and that look was really unique and dynamic. In some ways it was a "New York" look in fact. Having seen no Gino from that period I would want to know more about how many pieces he had put together at that point and what his rep was at the time. Being brought up to NYC was usually a good sign but I don't think of Gino as a red hot guy during that era. I LOVE the idea of Chavo Classic as WWWF champion, but Kris is right - there is a big difference between Puerto Ricans and Mexicans and in trying to work the "ethnic" angle I'm not sure Mexican would have been the way to go at that point. Sounds like a shit thing to say, but that's my perception without looking at census data. Also hard to see how Chavo works stylistically against the heels they liked to bring in. Should have mentioned Larry in the first post. He seems like he would have been on the radar. Perhaps Sullivan too. I don't think the degree to which Sullivan was a player has been explored or discussed a ton and I'm not really the guy to do it. I wonder if Steamboat would have been on the radar in 77?

One thing I am absolutely sure of - no Southerners would have been on the table, especially not someone like The Bullet who was REALLY Southern. I just can't envision any scenario in which Senior goes that route. I actually considered putting Slater on the list, but the problem is by that point in time I think he was already starting to get a rep as something of a headcase. The positives for him would be political (connected closely with the Grahams) and the fact that he had some record as a drawing card already. Robinson I think had no chance and while I like Ray Rougeau, I don't think he was where Martel was in terms of the broader business - people forget Martel had points in some offices/booking responsibilities no later than 78. He was young but had been in the business, had a well respected brother and had at least some key connections. I don't think he's a likely pick and I think you are right to point to his age as a negative, but he was an "old" 20 by wrestling standards. Dory I can't see at all. He lacked the charisma you needed in New York. People criticize Bob in this regard, but he was fiery and could heat up well. Part of that was his youth and power, things Dory never looked like he had. If Senior were looking for an established guy, I think Brisco would have been as good a pick as was available. I am a Funk mark, but no question I would have taken him over Terry for that slot. But I'm not sure Vince was looking for something like that at that point.

If anyone cares Terry Garvin is doing an AMA on reddit. I know dick all about reddit but the wife and other friends let me know and it's possible something amusing/interesting could come out of it.