Dylan Waco

I'm 99.8% sure I'll have you beat there. If I have Cena as low as Top 30 something will have gone horribly wrong. I'd say there are fifteen to twenty guys I would absolutely have to rate over him. After that? I don't know. To make this slightly more controversial, I'm not at all positive I would rate Bryan over him

I could see myself being the high voter on Cena. Yes he's had his bad matches, and yes he has his mechanical flaws, but he's had so many great big matches, and he's done it against a huge variety of opponents. I could see him in my top thirty.

I love the Robinson clip which is about fifteen minutes of a thirty minute match as I recall

Park is the Lucha version of Sasaki, but he's a a much better worker and he meant more as a freelancer.

There are two things JYD, Bearcat Wright, Sweet Daddy Siki, Sailor Art Thomas and Rufus Jones have in common. One of those things is that they are underrated as stars.

More later, but Rufus is massively underrated as a star

Patera is missing title shots from Toronto and McGuirk at minimum. There are also unconfirmed claims that he got 3 title shots in Central States in 81 but I've never found results. But his big title shots - even outside of WWF - were for that title (challenged for it for at least 4 different offices).

Got no problem with someone voting Koko, but I struggle with the idea of Sarge being an "on the fence" guy, and Koko being a definite pick

Shamrock has never been on the ballot. Lashley is rightfully seen as a joke, but also has other "disadvantages"

Was rereading my 90s reviews tonight and after looking at all that Invader is going to be an easy pick for my ballot

Great stuff here, sort of hurts JDW talking point that he is overrated as gajin. Are these all singles matches? I also consider it a plus that when NJPW was struggling they went to Murdoch v. Inoki, though you could soon that another way

I don't know enough to answer that. I can't see it as a negative really, but not sure if it's a positive. But as lead announcer, key office guy, on air translator and major manager who was linked to Abby and had to carry heel promo work for English speaking faces (as did Chicky, who I regard as one of the great heels in wrestling history) I think he has a very interesting case based on PR alone

I completely agree. My point was more to show how easy it is to make guys look better than they are if you dont present the details

Tag Team Match List! w/Colon v. The Sheepherders This is just totally crazy. I've seen a shitload of matches from all styles of promotions from all corners of the earth. Not sure I've ever seen anything like this. It was almost as if they took some of the more ridiculous elements of WWE Attitude Era, mixed them with Memphis and then held the match in a giant stadium in front of 80's era Texas fans. Historically I have been indifferent to the Herders, but this is there sort of match as this is just a burst of energy and blood and guys getting hit with foreign objects that look really dangerous and silly at the same time and yet I have no clue what the fuck they are. One of them looked like a bar of soap. Another looked like a solid roll of duct tape and that's what busted Invader open. Well that are the post shot he took which looked amazing. Colon decides to hit a picture perfect dropkick of all things in the middle of this and later smashes the head of one of the Herders on a table. About a half dozen fans reach over and slap at the heel, almost like they are doing a localized version of the wave, with the end game to tsunami crush the head of a Kiwi. Of course they are nearly beaten by one of the PR's resident shock troops. Somehow the lesson to be learned here was that they needed to brawl into the crowd, which is about one wrong move away from turning into a massive stampede/multiple deaths. Meanwhile during all of this Miguel Perez Jr (I think) keeps running into the ring with a glove and throwing kidney shots at Luke Williams. I have no clue what the glove is supposed to represent as it doesn't look particularly dangerous, but does look like something a trash collecting beekeeper would wear. Apparently it is made of steel because Luke Williams is near dead and a doctor gets called in to check on him as the faces continue to kick the shit out of him for several more minutes. They finally drag him out on a stretcher, through a crowd that is totally out of control and looks to be attempting to tip the stretcher at some points. The ambulance is pulled up in the in field and the faces look like they are still trying to get into it for more shots, when it pulls away while fans climb/ride it. Anyhow, this was completely awesome. w/Invader 3 v. The Sheepherders Outstanding tag match, largely because it build logically and organically. It started with the general babyface control spots from the Invaders, working the arm. All standard, but well executed, with the Herders selling everything well. They take over with the old knee to the back off of the criss cross and they controlled the match with punches and cheating. Really liked some of the fist drops and there was one really strong cut off spot. Off the hot tag it looks like things might change up, but instead we get a really compelling final portion of the match as one of the Invader's gets bumped to the floor and another gets isolated. This "go it alone" theme sort of dominates from that point forward with each guy trying to save the other and failing. There is another great cut off on a double crotch spot from the Herders and all of the stuff with the foreign object and flagpole DQ finish was really well pieced together. Post-match flagpole shot to the arm looked absolutely brutal to. I like matches that escalate from one stage to the next, so this was a home run. w/Invader 3 v. The Sheepherders The only thing that would keep this off the set would be if it was determined that we were missing a ton of it. Knowing how PR often works with the wrestlers meeting each other in the field on the way to the ring and beating the shit out of each other I tend to think this is missing very little, probably no more than a couple of minutes. And what is there is really fun. This is totally a Keep It Simple Stupid brawl, as the match is just four guys hitting each other with weapons, selling the shots well and then the Invaders timing a really fiery comeback. Also one of the Herders (I couldn't see which) took a fucking crazy crotch bump right before the finish which is not something you necessarily expect out of them. This had tons of energy and excitement to it and while it's not an upper level PR brawl, its still a solid nomination w/Invader 3 v. The Sheepherders The Invaders get this insanely grandiose entrance and it's like the crowd is almost annoyed by it. I have never seen a PR crowd more lukewarm to their heroes than this. I guess it could be the mic'ing, but it actually hurts the match some as it's a pretty insane - but messy - brawl that needed a bit more pop to be a truly great match. Having said that, after a somewhat iffy start, I really liked this. I really like the way the PR barbed wire matches are set up as it allows for simple, but brutal looking spots like the faces getting caught between the ring ropes and the outer layer of wire, but also allows for the heels to stooge/sell the gimmick by bumping into the ropes and giving these big expressive responses to everything. There are some really nice little touches in this including a sick camera shot of an Invader mask/head being barbed to death, an Invader getting tied into the tree of woe, with one leg tucked under the wire as a means of isolation and a cool moment where Butch Miller is about to eat a fall and Luke Williams who is on his knees getting his ass kicked also just reaches over and decks Invader in the face to break up the fall. Plenty of blood, violence, trash getting thrown in the ring and a decent pop when the Invaders win. w/Invader 3 v. The Starrs This is a studio match so that's kind of neat. Ron Starr is a couple of years older here and looks like, fat old man Jacques Rougeau. The opening goes about like you think with the Starr's bumping around and getting there ass kicked. Then they take over by twisting and yanking at the mask of Invader 1. They aren't trying to unmask him, but instead are trying to blind him so that they can get in their licks against a defenseless man. Eventually he has enough and rips his own mask off and the fight is back on. The faces bust open the heels and have them reeling, when Ron pulls down the rope on Invader 1 and fucking destroys him with a chair. He's laying in a thick pile of blood on the floor and then the Starr's hop in the ring and beat the piss out of Invader 3 with a chair. The match gets tossed out and Colon comes out for the save and they beat his ass with the chair too. The match itself was solid, but the angle really got this over as a big moment and it was cool to see the heels lay all the big stars to waste. w/Invader 3 v. The Starrs I've seen this before, but this was helped a ton by knowing the fact that this was a tournament draw and not some random match. It was helped even more by knowing how much of a evasive piece of shit Chicky was being in doing everything not to have to square off with Invader 1 which was really the story of the match. The dynamic of the Starr team was just really good in this as you had Ron as the bruiser/enforcer and Chicky as the cheapshot artist who was moving heaven and earth to stay away from Invader 1, tagging out every chance he could get, fleeing in terror, et. all the while pointing to his head to show his own genius while the fans threw trash at him. When he was in there with 3 he looked great too both bumping his ass of early and working offensive later in the match. This ended up getting turned on it's head some at the end with Invader getting cut down by big Ron, the flubbed - but ultimately sick looking reverse Hart Attack clothesline, and the survival of the awesome Ron Starr DDT as time expired. This was really close to being a great draw, rather than just a good one, but either way I think its' a nomination. w/Invader 3 v. Yukon Joe/Jesse Barr Man Yukon Joe is a slovenly looking motherfucker. I gotta say Jesse Barr looked good here. He was awesome taking these full body bumps for the faces that were super expressive. He also had great facial expressions in this whether on offense or defense. When it came time for offense his punches looked really good and he busted out a pretty amazing looking fist drop. The way this was worked you had the "flashy" team of the Invaders, working as speed demons, with big spots v. the traditionally grimy heel team and I have to say this worked better than it might look on paper. I even really liked the finish with Barr out on the floor making faces, while Yukon Joe ends up eating a couple of cool double teams spots for the finish. This is another one I'm pretty torn on, because it was only about seven minutes and there was nothing out of this world, but I am a mark for t.v. matches like this. w/Brody v. TNT/Ayala I don't think I've ever had this much fun watching a Brody match before, not that he did a ton in this. This was all about TNT and Invader, though Ayala held up his end and Brody was completely inoffensive. The audio quality here is not great, but you can just see the crowd is hot for this and TNT's opening stooging and the brief brawl on the floor had things rocking. I kind of thought this was going to turn into an extended face squash, but instead they went with a really solid Southern tag formula, Invader bleeding and selling his ass off for the heels. I didn't even mind the nervehold work here, as it was mixed up with nasty looking boots right to the head and Invader's selling was really good as usual. The heels bust out a Hart Attack clothesline variation and TNT hits a second diving clothesline, but misses on a third which leads to the Brody hot tag. This is quick and simple with Brody taking out Ayala and Invader hitting a flash belly to belly off the ropes. TNT gets a foot on the bottom rope, but the ref misses him pull it off after the three and faces run to the back celebrating their victory, as the crowd goes nuts and Profe loses his shit trying to explain to the ref what he missed. Extremely fun tag, I hope we can track this down on disc, I would think everyone would like this w/Perez v. The Starrs About eight minutes or so of this was shown. No clue how much there was in full, but I must have had my head up my ass because I didn't even catch the clip. As a match, this was good, but not great. The strength of this was in the way the heat was built as the Starr's worked very simple holds and cut off the ring on Invader to great effect. I am a mark for that sort of stuff, but still would have liked to see some of the trademark Ron Starr offense. Even still the hope spots during all of that were really well done and Invader was excellent working underneath which is a consistent strength of his. The hot tag was well timed and Perez came in nuts which helped set up the really awesome angle. It's crazy because I saw the white hood and thought Medico and was briefly confused, but man the angle is really good, and Invader's blade job is epic. I'd say this is worth a nomination as I doubt there are more than four minutes missing and the heat in this was really strong. w/Invader 3 and Mascaras v. The Funks/R. Starr This is a completely absurd match that somehow works. The babyfaces take about 80% of this. The opening arm work on Dory Funk is actually pretty good and Dory takes some nice bumps but he has the shittiest facials I've ever seen in wrestling. He looks absolutely bored by everything that is going on. Still you've got Terry complaining from the apron as the faces work heel tactics. Then Terry comes in and demands a boxing match. He alternates between stalling, positioning the ref in the corner and dancing around in his boxing stance, then gets punched a few times and takes this twisted delayed bump to the mat. He is in 100 percent cartoon mode and I love it. The heel team consists of two former NWA World Champs and the first guy to get any offense is former Richard Simmons look-a-like, now "Rambo" devotee Ron Starr. Unbelievable. Then Dory actually sets up Terry's offensive contribution, which consists entirely of choking with his wrist tape. The faces make their big comeback after maybe two minutes of heel offense and chase the heels around, including Funk getting strangled with his own tape as the match gets thrown out. I have no clue how this worked but it did. w/Invader 3 and Colon v. Abby/The Starrs This needs to make the set. As a match it is more "pretty good" than great. I do love Chicky being a complete pussy and avoiding any trouble, getting forced in and then actually being the guy who took over for his team. I also thought the heel control section in this was solid as Ron Starr has fun offense, Chicky is a fun heel ring general and Abby is Abby. Still nothing here was great and I could see leaving this on the cutting room floor if not for two things. First this is a rare case of a trios in WWC with basically every top star in the promotion in it, including probably the top two faces and top two heels in ever in the promotion. Second the finish is awesome if you see it the way I see it. Basically the STarrs end up brawling with The Invaders on the floor and Colon hits a hooking clothesline on Abby for the three. You kind of think "fuck that's it?" and then Abby pops up and blinds Colon with a jar of ammonia that he throws in his eyes. Great angle, but its an angle born of the finish which I saw as Abby deliberately losing the battle so he could win the war.. WarGames Match This was a clusterfuck but largely an entertaining one. Honestly this would have been ten thousand times better as a true Wargames tag with guy coming in in 2 or 5 minute intervals. In any case I loved Chicky Starr in this but that is a reoccurring them and to be expected at this point. The goal of the gimmick is that all five guys from a team have to be chained to a cage and then the winning team gets five minutes alone with them. This leads to a lot of awkward moments and a whole lot of nothing happening after an initial wave of stuff. I thought this got pretty good as it broke down the final four and Sheik was a lot of fun as the last man standing, destroying Colon with a foreign object he'd kept in his boot and then unchaining him and locking him in the camel clutch during the five minute beatdown period. Colon was a bloody mess and this was a decisive and crushing win for the heels which is something that allows impresses me in a match like this. This isn't even close to a great match - I'm not even positive it's a good one. But it the violence and angle at the end made it worthwhile.

Reviews from the 80's forum. I believe all of these matches are easy to find online, but I don't want to jam this thread with youtube links. Would be interested to see OJ follow up on some of this. I apologize for the fact that these likely will not be in order. I will separate this between singles performances and tag performances. The bolded matches are ones I regard as must see. Every single one of these is at least good. I'm not a star rating guy, but nothing here is less than what I would loosely consider to be three stars, and I'd say all but maybe one or two of these 3.5 stars are better. A few of them I consider true classics, which will probably become clear while reading the reviews. Tag reviews will come soon, perhaps later tonight and I'll add some 90's matches after that though I have not watched nearly as much of that. I really want people to watch and comment on these and Invader in general. I love Colon, but a part of me thinks Invader is actually the better worker v. Kamala This was short, but really outstanding to the point where I have zero problem with it being on the set as a match. In fact the only real argument I can see against including it is that we don't have the payoff of this which looks to have been the first stage of an angle. Regardless this was great stuff as Invader hits the ring hard and Kamala goes straight to the bandage on his head and rips it off and then this becomes a five minute game of "can Invader survive." I think Invader's greatest strength as a worker is selling and the nature of his comebacks and this match combined those two elements as he was great selling the blood loss and eating Kamala's targetted shots and then throwing these desperate haymakers and chops to try and get himself back into the game. At a few points you almost think the's going to get it done, but Kamala is on point going after the cut, the blood gets worse and worse and eventually the ref steps it at about the 5:12 second mark. I liked this every bit as much as the Larry v. Bock match that made the AWA Set and was over a minute shorter bell to bell, so I will fight for this as a match. v. Hercules Ayala This is a tough one, because this is one of those things where if you count the pre-match and post-match I think you have a real case for this making the set, but without it I don't know. It's always tough for me because while I tend to be a "bell-to-bell" guy there are cases like the AWA tag team "riot" match, where the post-match helped the match in my eyes, and I know there are plenty of voters who have expressed that they vote for the "full presentation." Here the pre-match is basically a huge stalling/lobbying segment with Invader 1 eventually convincing the ref to eject Chicky from ringside. This was well done, got the crowd super amped and really set the stage. The match itself was actually a very solid tv match, with what looked to be a minor edit in the middle. The match is basically Invader winning a "boxing" exchange, Ayala firing back with some shots, Invader going to the balls in blatant and awesome fashion, Ayala coming back again with some more shots, a brief heat section of a nervehold while the fans throw trash into the ring, Invader going to the balls again and locking on a sleeper and then the run-in. Normally Ayala's offense looks pretty eh, but here I thought it was sold really well by Invader and this had true slugfest feel to it. Still what makes this a worthwhile segment takes place when Chicky runs in to break up the sleeper. They try and corner Invader who keeps evading them and just when he escapes to the floor Ron Starr shows up and viciously posts him. They bring him into the ring and STarr breaks out a loaded glove of some sort to deck him with as the fans are going bonkers showering the ring with shit. Just at the last second the faces show up to make the save. This definitely forwarded the angle and felt like a really big deal to me watching even 25 years later. This is one of those things where I would like the input of others on how the pre/post match factors in to their thinking and Boricua on the angle and importance of the feud itself. At minimum it deserves to be discussed, and if not a match for the set, should be an Extra. v. Hercules Ayala I need Boricua to tell me what the hell was going on here and what the finish of this was. I couldn't tell if this just had no finish shown (i.e. it just ends with the match still on), if the match had been thrown out, if this was some crazy lights out match, et. What I do know is that this starts with Ayala in the ring with someone else. He gets on the mic and talks some shit. Then Invader shows up and does the same. Then these two proceed to have the absolute best studio match I've ever seen in WWC. There are around 12 or 13 minutes of this and it is great stuff. The opening tit for tat is awesome, then this turns into a thing where Ayala keeps bailing to the floor to escape Invader flurries. Eventually he takes over on Invader and busts him wide open. We get a lot of the typically great Invader in peril selling, with Ayala ramming him into the steel supports, the post, hitting him with the ring bell and belt, et. At some point in the middle of this Hugo is interviewing someone presumably announcing what the terms of the match were. Invader ends up hanging upside down in the ropes with Ayala ripping at his face. After this Invader makes a huge comeback. They end up on their knees exchanging nasty punches and vicious headbutts and then the screen just fades out. Lots of surprisingly good stuff in this too, including some short Ayala uppercuts I've never seen him throw before, and Invader's wild dive bomb headbutt to the gut of Ayala. This match was so great that even without a finish or knowing what the fuck was going on I would say it should make the set, but the context could make it even better. (Context from Boricua) The match is supposed to be Hercules Ayala vs. Isaac Rosario. This is not long after Ayala's turn as he's introduced as the traitor during the ring announcements. Isaac Rosario is introduced and the bell rings. Hercules Ayala just stands there complaining to the ref as Hugo and Joaquin Padin are speculating about what's going on. Padin mentions Rosario can give Ayala a good match as Ayala motions dismissively at Rosario to get out. As Ayala keeps complaining and gesturing, the announcers wonder what is going on with Ayala. Padin wonders if Ayala is actually afraid of Rosario and Hugo decides to go talk to Hercules Ayala to find out what's going on. As Hugo calls Hercules over ("Hercules Ayala, what seems to be the problem?"), the crowd starts chanting "Invader, Invader". Hugo (at 2:50): Could you tell us what the problem is so we could allow you a chance to express yourself. Ayala: Well there's no problem here Hugo. What's happening here is that week after week it's the same thing. I want competition, what's going on here? Hugo: Isaac Rosario is a good wrestler. Ayala: So what if he's a good wrestler, I'm going to beat him. What I want is competition here, wherever. Hugo: Look, you're talking about a strong man here. Isaac Rosario is a man that's wrestled with many good wrestlers... Ayala: I not interested about what he is , if he's strong or whatever. What I want is competition here, that they bring me people that will be competition. Hugo: Well, I don't want to go against anything you have said, but a professional wrestler such as yourself, are you afraid of facing Isaac Rosario? Ayala: No, it's not that I'm afraid, I don't fear anyone. That problem is that I want competition here right now. I don't want to keep wrestling and killing people here. I'm tired of that already. I don't want to continue just killing people. Invader makes his way out. Hugp: Isaac Rosario is a good wrestler. Invader motions to Isaac Rosario to head out of the ring Padin: Hugo, look at what's going on in the ring. Look who's in the ring. Let's see what's going on here. Invader, come over here. What's going on? The public is cheering for the Invader, there he is in the ring. Hugo: The Invader is here. Padin, why don't you go see what's going on. Padin: Invader, if you would be so kind to head over this way. Ayala (at 4:20): Look Hugo, let me tell you something... Padin: Invader 1, what's going on. This man over here, Hercules Ayala... Ayala: ...Invader 1, I'm supposed to be wrestling him on Saturday. Tell him I'm not wrestling him today, I'm wrestling him on Saturday. Padin: ...this man here has been complaining that he will not wrestle, he wants competition. Invader: One moment, one moment. I want to be heard. What is it that you want? What do you want, competition? Well why don't you... Ayala: Tell him I'm wrestling him on Saturday, not today. Padin: Well, there it is a challenge Hugo. Hugo walks over to Invader. Hugo: Could you repeat what you just said. Invader, what is it that you want? Invader: What's going on with Ayala. He wants competition, here is competition! I'll face him right here, right now! Padin: There it is, this situation is getting hot. Hugo walks back to Hercules. Hugo: Hercules Ayala, it's to you now. Do you accept against Invader? Ayala: I'll tell you something Hugo. If he wants to, he will wait until Saturday because he already has a commitment with me on Saturday. So on Saturday I'm going to give you a beating. He can wait until Saturday. Hugo goes back to Invader. Hugo: He doesn't want to wrestle you. Invader: I wonder why it is he doesn't want to wrestle me? Didn't you say he wants competition. Hugo: That's what he said, he wants competition. Invader: Well I'm competition! And I'll face him any time! Hugo: You'll face him right now? Invader: Right now! (Ayala keeps waving his arms signaling no). Look, Ayala! What's going on here is that you're a coward! That's what's going on, you're a coward! Why won't you face me now? Ayala: I'm not afraid you or of anyone and I'm no coward! And I can show that to you here or anywhere, but I don't have to wrestle with you. Invader: Well if you're no coward, if you're no coward, show me! C'mon,. let's wrestle here right now! Invader drops the mic and gets in the ring, followed by Ayala. They start exchanging blows as the commentators mention that they have a problem, they don't know if this match has been sanctioned or has a time limit. They start calling for Commissioner Castillo. Castillo finally shows up and clears up the confusion. This match will last as long as TV time remains. Basically, TV time limit. So the match ends on a time limit draw as soon as the TV program's time runs out. Just before the match cuts out, Hugo and Padin sign off. Kind of makes you want to see that Saturday match between them. v. Eric Embry Holy fuck was this a war, I have no clue how this has slipped through the gaps until now and we owe Boricua a huge debt for pointing this out because it would be a crime for this to miss the set. Completely insane, Puerto Rico style, brawl. Tons of completely nuts stuff in this, including Invader chopping Embry in the face as he tried to flee on the floor, a sick Embry blade job, a completely nuts looking spot with Embry piledriving Invader wildly on a table that was later topped with a "flash" stuff piledriver from Embry to cut off a hot Invader run, et. You could argue that Invader unsold the piledrivers, but I thought they did a good job of keeping both guys selling damage throughout while still selling bombs. I also loved a lot of the little things in this, like the fact that when Invader went back on offense he did the exact same shit to Embry that Embry did to him including a sick chair shot and carrying him through the crowd to slam him into a garage door or Invader's transition to offense coming when Embry tried to suplex him to close to the ropes and Invader's legs were accidentally blocking it from happening. The finishing run with these guys trading nasty strikes on their knees, then huge nut shots, then wild brawling on the floor was great. I would have preferred a definitive finish, to what we got, but the level of work was so great before that point it doesn't matter. We need this on disc. v. Al Perez This is a match we may not be able to get, as Boricua says he thinks it comes from a release Invader was selling himself. In any case, this is a good enough match to merit consideration and if we stumble upon it, I think it would have a decent shot of making a set. It's not a high end WWC gimmick match, but this has a lot of the staples that make those brawls so great. In particular you have the classic WWC look but in a non-stadium setting, as the entire match takes place on the patchwork floor around the ring, with the crowd all in the elevated bleacher seating giving it that Roman Coliseum feel Phil has talked about. There isn't a single "move" in this. The whole match is guys punching, ripping, kicking each other in the balls, slamming each others face into shit, et. Invader bleeds and is really good at your blood loss selling here as he always is. There is a great moment where they are exchanging shots and Invader just lunges up with a cracking headbutt. Though also do some pretty crazy teases, with both guys dangling wildly over the entrance way which is basically a stairway to a basement locker room. Eventually Invader rattles off a flurry of punches and Perez descends those stairs never to return for the "finish" which was admittedly less than satisfying. Because of that and this being JIP (though about 12 or 13 minutes are shown), I wouldn't push this as a lock, but if we can get it it is something I could see people really liking. v. Bruiser Brody This is from a stadium show, so I would be shocked if this wasn't available on a disc. This was also easily the best of these three matches. Brody's over the top selling and desperate avoidance of contact with the post and/or complete unwillingness to take a bump to the floor were annoying, but Invader was great in this. He got worked over early, made Brody's offense looked good, did his great slow developing comeback after the initial blood less and then went on a tear. I fucking loved his escalating levels of violence with Brody. He even shrugged off Brody's stuff the way Bruiser usually did to others. At one point he was holding him by the hair and just punching him in the face as he was laid out on the apron. He ends up cracking him with a chair and then chasing him into the dugout while smashing him with a chair. The post-match with the crowd carrying him around is kind of crazy hindsight, but it was an awesome moment in isolation. v. Jason The Terrible This is hands down the most empty I've seen any PR building so far. This wasn't the sort of match that knocks you on your ass, and it wouldn't be a top rung match for the set, but I think it is easily good enough for a nomination. It gets a lot of time for PR tv during this period and they do a slow build for sure, which I could see annoying some people as watching Jason work a chinlock isn't terribly compelling. Having said that, when they came up for the big spots and moments they all looked really good and seemed to mean something in the development of the match. Both Jason and Invader took some big bumps out to the floor in this and I liked Jason's knee strikes and big clothesline a lot. They did the bit with Invader selling his ass off on the floor, which built to a good sunset flip near fall. I also thought the ref bumps in this were really good as they were timed for maximum dramatic effect, making you think Invader was going to get screwed because of them, and instead it just kept Jason alive long enough for Invader to eat a flying headbutt off the ropes with the mask for the fall. Good match. v. Super Black Ninja (Muto) This is brief, but very effective over all. Super Black Ninja is Muta and you pretty much get the Muta you expect from this era, sans a moonsault. Invader gets bumped big into the cage early and works virtually the entire match on the defensive, with his mask ripped awkwardly and a bloody head peaking out. There is one really awesome hope spot early where he fights all the way back and delivers one huge chop, but has absolutely nothing left to follow up with. Ninja keeps trying to escape to win and Invader makes these desperate saves clutching at his feet. Invader finally makes his comeback and bumps Ninja big time into the cage busting him open. Ninja even ends up crotching himself on the top rope. Ninja is able to counter with a dropkick, but it drives Invader out of the ring door and he wins the match and the title. Not long enough to be great, but this was both novel and good. v. Super Black Ninja (Muto) What a nutty brawl this was. Invader 1 is wearing the mask here and blades early on and Muta targets the fuck out of it throughout. Seriously Invader's mask is just coated with blood for almost the entirety of the match. For his trouble Muta eats a huge chair shot early and takes some wild bumps where he flings himself into people and objects on the floor with abandon. They choke each other and beat each other with one of Muta's shoes. There is this great spot where Invader is hoping to make a big comeback and Muta does this sliding kick to his nuts with his shoe less foot. Cool spot with Muta choking him out with a mic chord and hitting a sweet looking moonsault for a near fall. Crazy spot with both guys flying over the top, then Invader starts beating Muta with a belt. Invader makes a run and then they go into a great segment where each guy chops the other down and they do strike exchanges from their knees covered in blood. Muta's second tries to give him the upper hand, but Invader hits Muta with a suitcase and pins him. Post-match Bobby Jaggers shows up and picks the bones of the injured Invader. Really exciting brawl, that was given enough time to tell a story too. v. Super Black Ninja (Muto) This match was way better on paper than it was on practice. That is not to say this was a bad match because it wasn't, but if you had told me these guys would get this much time (probably around twelve or thirteen minutes shown) I would have thought it would have been a lock for the set and this really wasn't. I actually didn't mind the slow build at all an they did some good stuff in it, the problem I had was that the transition to the stretch run felt kind of flat. I will say that the last several minutes of this were amazing and true high drama as they had done a good job establishing the significance of the match over the course of the show, the crowd was going batshit, the ringside brawling added to things, and they had some really good false finishes. Even I bought the moonsault near fall and marked out when Invader kicked out. And then amazingly Muta won basically cleanly with another big spot. Given the novelty of this, the rare length for a tv match and the super hot stretch run, I would argue that this deserves real consideration for the set. It's the sort of thing people would want to see. But I don't know that it would place all that high on my ballot. *Even though I have this low end, that is more a reflection of my view of the match. I actually would say this probably should make the set if you factor in other aspects of this (rare lengthy tv title match, the clips around the feud that preceded the match, the hotness of the feud, the crazy finishing run, the fact that it's a Muta match which has a novelty factor, et). v. Ron Starr Wild, all over the ball park brawl. They go way up into the stands and fight among the people for several minutes. Starr ends up sprinting away from him and they go to a wild exchange with both guys brawling on the a dugout and Starr whipping Invader with a weight belt. Then they brawl on the camera stand which leads to a hilarious scramble as the camera guy tries to figure out how the fuck to get a shot. Both guys bleed and look exhausted, but Starr keeps at it with the belt. When Invader gets the upperhand again he tries to climb up the netting behind the backstop which I thought was hysterical. Back in the ring Starr takes control and hits a nice butterfly suplex and a senton, but takes a nut shot on a second senton attempt. Then we get a shit finish with both guys failing to make a ten count. Really fun stuff over all. v. Ron Starr Ron Starr's look here is classic. Kind of like Van Hammer dressing up as a GI Joe character. I also loved how he kept posturing early like he was a tough motherfucker, and then backing off in fear every time Invader closed space or bumped him around. Starr also worked really tight with his forearms and early there were a couple of really cool exchanges, including a flash arm whip/escape thingie from Invader and Starr doing this great leaping stomp to the head of Invader on a drop down rope running exchange. I know that sounds really simple, but it was done in such a way where it looked like he was going to go with the flow, then caught himself and just dropped the bomb instead. Invader ends up on the floor and this woman dressed to the nines, with Glamour Shots hair runs from the back, decks Invader with a wooden chair and busts him open. Invader is really awesome here stumbling around with this concussed look in his eye, dripping blood and collapsing into a pile of chairs. Invader struggles back into the ring, leaving behind a massive mess of chairs that was the front row and this turns into a great slugfest. Invader is chucking out huge forearms and Starr fights back with jabs right to the cut. Then Invader throws this wild lariat, followed shortly after by a double lariat that knocked both guys out. This led to a lengthy parity exchange with both guys barely evading big blows from the other. Invader ends up going for a big crossbody counter, but Starr gets out of the way and crushes him with a big jumping DDT for the decisive finish. This was pretty awesome. v. Chicky Starr This is pretty awesome as a spectacle. Apparently Starr ambushed Invader pre-match with a mic and busted him open. The first three minutes of this is just Starr circling him as he bleeds on the floor, taking a shot here or there, as the crowd gets more and more intense. It's insane but I couldn't spot a single person seated for the entire duration of this match. At one point Chicky is screaming profanity on the floor and you start to think shit might get out of hand but it never does. It's like they are just waiting for the big Invader comeback to happen. I'm not sure the use of the armbar in between shots was the best heat building hold, but it didn't seem to hurt and Chicky tossing him over the top for a big bump when he started to make a comeback was a smart spot. Invader finally starts to make a comeback, as he slowly gets going and then pumps himself up full tilt with the crowd going bananas to the point where the building looks to be shaking. He goes in for the kill and Starr just bolts and leaves for the countout. That sounds disappointing but it really wasn't. This was the start of a feud and the fuck you effect of bloodying a guy and then casually leaving before he can get any real damage on you was sold really well by Invader. v. Chicky Starr I am watching this with what Boricua wrote in mind. I'd like to know what Invader said pre-match with Hugo that had Chicky flipping him off. Actually Chicky's entrance here was incredible as the fans were just showering him with trash. Anyway, in the context of the history lesson Boricua gave to us I think this is a good match. You can argue that even with the stips being what they were that there should have been some color and I wouldn't disagree. But the story of Chicky doing whatever he could to kill clock in an effort to kill Invader's career made sense and was well done and they also did a good job slowly getting Chicky in the fight to the point where you can almost see him getting over confident and foolishly thinking he can win this outright. Starr unloading everything and losing on a loaded mask headbutt was such a brilliant finish too, as it was as perfect a "tables have turned" finish as I've ever seen in wrestling. Invader grabbing the ref in celebration and the head shaving were great moments too. I worry about this some because if people don't know the context I could see this coming across as an iffy match, but with the details being known, and the fact that it was the main event match of the second biggest drawing show in the entire world that year (behind only WM III), it really feels like it belongs on the set. On work this is low end and I've had a weird standard for this whole process, but I will argue for this matches inclusion. *Low end on work, but all things considered this is more of a "solid" pick Street Fight Battle Royal (Bronca Boricua) One of my sole regrets with the AWA Set was not putting on this one really fun battle royal from the Showboat Era, that was admittedly not a great match, but was a hell of a lot of fun. Well this match was a hell of a lot better than that and I won't make the same mistake twice. I agree that the first part of this is pretty cluttered and not a lot of note happens, but you still have to take inventory of the situation. You've got Boogie Woogie Man coming to the ring looking like he just stumbled out of a mandatory stint in a post-prison/rehab halfway house, homeless with nowhere to go but a fist fight, carrying what very well may be a rusty hypodermic needle. Then Carlos saunters out in a Scarfaceesque track suit with no weapon in hand. A few minutes later we discover that Carlos has what appears to be some sort of spike/knife but we only know it because he stabs a guy in the head from behind in a total dick move while he's getting into the ring. You look around and there are guys with carelessly broken boards, vastly more dangerous than barbed wire, as you can practically see the splinters flying off of them. Rufus Jones and JYD are just milling around being Rufus Jones and JYD. Eric Embry looks even more street hustler like than Rip Rogers. So yeah there isn't a ton going on, but watching these flurry of boards being waved about but his motley crew is like a scene out of the Warriors or something. Then shit gets real when TNT has enough of Kendo's shit and just runs at him and starts clubbing him wildly with a board. Pretty much everything after that point was awesome, including the crazy train of eliminations with Colon and Rip and especially the final four. I swear to god the last five minutes of this with those four guys is among the best non-Hansen v. Colon stuff I've seen from PR. Perez going batshit with the stick was great and his elimination spot was really awesome. Then when it gets down to Ivan and Invader it turns into this totally dramatic, PR classic, with Colon and TNT leading the crowd in wild cheers for Invader. It's really back and fourth but completely awesome and you get little touches like Ivan Kollof of all people working in shots from his guard. Finish was completely satisfying and we get our post-match, fans mob the ring, Puerto Rico "moment." This ruled.

That's more like it. I would bet the tv match with Dory from 69 wasn't a title match but I could be wrong. Still there are two St. Louis title matches here (still less than I would have guessed, but he did have the Bruno matches) and some dates in New Orleans. Still surprised he didn't have more major market title challenges, but I think this more complete record is generally favorable, and more positive than negative when it comes to HOF talk

Murdoch fans won't like me for saying this, but that is shockingly unimpressive to me. The 86 stuff is basically a trivia note like Patera getting shots against Hogan. No NWA title shot in St. Louis (when it was a solo town at least) stuns me. The Florida stuff isn't unimpressive and the Greensboro main event with Race is a nice one, but this is much lighter than I would have guessed. I know it's not complete for a fact, but it's probably not missing any major show

What hurts Sarge is that he has these tremendous highs, but not a ton of the complimentary stuff you like to see to add meat to a resume. Having said that, no way I can leave guy with Sheik matches, Final Conflict and Starrcage off my ballot. If you are in four of my top 25 US matches of the 80s, you are getting on the list somewhere

Maybe romanticized isn't the right word. What I was trying to get at is that Murdoch benefits from having his run in a promotion where we have lots of complete footage, that was critically acclaimed at the time and after the fact by hardcore fans. Slater's top runs were (arguably) in two promotions with minimal footage by comparison, and thus were never favorites of tape traders

Blind Resume Time: Positives: - Solid Amateur Credentials - Crossover MMA/Wrestling Star - Held major titles in multiple major, national promotions. - Was one half of the match widely credited with being the draw of one of the largest grossing PPV shows in history, if not the largest grossing (too lazy to look) - Had a notable feud with major wrestling heel/authority figure, that was goofy in many ways, but critically acclaimed by many. - Had a major push that directly coincided with a clear uptick in ratings for the promotion he was working in. - This push was credited as the best aspect of the show he was working on by many, if not most, fans and critics. Negatives: - Despite a couple of major, sustained pushes, he never drew at the level you would hope. - Generally speaking a poor mic worker, though when paired with a great mouthpiece his menacing look is more than enough to make him feel like a star. - Has shown a poor commitment to wrestling, walking away and going to MMA, before coming back years later. - When he came back to wrestling, he was immediately pushed into the main event scene, which may have contributed to backstage unrest, as well as some criticism from hardcore fans of the promotion who didn't like him cutting in line of young, homegrown stars who had emerged in his absence.

This isn't about taking anyone's word on anything. I am not anywhere near as high on Murdoch as a worker as you are Will, but I would much, much rather watch peak Murdoch than peak Patera or peak Koloff. Having said that I can point to very specific aspects of each guys career - particularly Patera's due to my research there - that tell me they are all Hall of Famers. I have not had time to go through the results Kris carried over above, but will try and do so in the next couple of weeks. Having said that I did listen to the podcast (and loved it) and I left it feeling basically the same way that I felt coming in - instinctively I believe Murdoch is a Hall of Famer, but I still don't think the sort of case I like to see made was made. For example while I appreciated the point of comparisons to various guys on particular subjects, they weren't as detailed as i would like, nor were they all encompassing. I don't know whether or not Murdoch was a bigger star in Japan than Hansen was in the 80's (I'm not entirely sure that was what was argued, but if I'm being honest I think it's a massive stretch, that would be incredibly hard to defend based on the evidence I've seen), but I do know that I don't think he's as good an overall candidate. In the case of Patera I believe there are guys who got in in the first class who he is as good or superior to as a candidate. This may also be the case with Murdoch, but it wasn't discussed. To me the most interesting thing mentioned on the show was that Murdoch's first world title shot was (going off memory in 1970) in Florida. I would like to see that aspect developed more. How many world title shots did he have in his career? Who were they against? In what towns/buildings? For a guy going in as a traveling star that is the sort of thing I like to see. Having his first shot that early (and his first Japan tour that early) means something to me, but I want to see how much meat/how deep it goes. I know for a fact he got shots against Funk for McGuirk due to my own research on Patera, but how many other shots did he have? I assume he got some in St. Louis which would really matter to me. I know Will doesn't give a shit about St. Louis, and I think that it is over emphasized at times, but it's significance both to the career of Murdoch and as a town with real power/and indication of stardom can't be ignored or shunted aside if you are being serious. As a voter I also like to see a list of the top feuds/rivalries for a guy. It doesn't tell you whether a promotion was hot, but if a guy is always working top names in programs and feuds it's a good indicator that he was perceived as having value. I thought you guys did a pretty good job with this, but given the nature of the show it wasn't as focused as I would have liked (to be fair, the show was probably better for not being bogged down in that sort of minutia, but that is the sort of thing I want to see). While I understand that looking at the territories from a top-down sort of perspective is risky business, et. I also think it's nonsense to argue that main eventing in Amarillo should be treated the same as main eventing in New York. I don't think that's really Will's point, but if it is it should be disregarded as Murdochian Apologetic's and not a serious argument. To me the point is if we can't get attendance figures and/or a reliable feel for how business was, we need to at least see if we can see how many major market main events a person received. Major market does not mean you exclude significant wrestling towns like Greensboro or even Amarillo, but that sort of thing should be broken down. It's hard work, but I think with candidates like Murdoch, Patera, Koloff, et that is the kind of work that has to be done to make the case. A few other things regarding the show. Firstly Kris is wrong in my view about Patera never getting over as main event level player as a face. I agree that he was a way better heel and that his peak was as a heel. I also would agree if the argument was that Murdoch was a better face artistically and big picture significance to a promotion. But Patera v. Billy Graham feud in his rookie year was hot enough in the AWA to main event some cards and semi-main a fuck ton of cards AND THEN got farmed out to Dallas. He was also pushed in main events (often as a tag worker) during his first MACW run as a face. I have zero problem with someone regarding Murdoch as a better candidate than Patera, but as a star show me a period where Murdoch was doing what Patera was doing from 77-81. Good luck. Another point was that Will's dismissal of Dick Slater bothered me. To be truthful I don't give a fuck about Slater in the big picture sense though I do think he's underrated as a worker. But he absolutely was a really big star in multiple territories. In fact peak v. peak in terms of U.S. relevance you could probably argue him over Murdoch based on what I've seen and at least his equal. Where Dick would pull ahead for most people would be longevity, broader relevance (internationally) and work. But the real point to me is that the dismissal of a regional star like that is something I think we are too quick to do in these discussions. It is very, very rare that a guy who was only huge in one region deserves to get in, but there are lots of guys who may have had a really hot run in one region, then another, then another, et. and it adds up to something interesting. I'm not saying Slater is necessarily that guy, but I think the laughing off of Slater could easily be used to shit on Murdoch himself if not for the fact that Mid-South is heavily romanticized, particularly by tape traders and their descendents. One final point that I didn't think was made on the show though I may have missed it. Being a tag star meant a lot more back then than it does now. This is obvious to us, but to casual listeners and sadly (I think) lots of HOF voters I'm not sure they get this. Ivan being a tag main eventer, with top guys, working top opponents in main events was big shit in the territorial era. The same thing goes for Dick's best tag work. You guys put over that his relevance as a tag star was important, but I sometimes think we do a poor job explaining just how critical tag teams, hot tag feuds, et were to drawing in major territories back then

How awesome is invaders selling in that

That's not a terribly persuasive argument

Rey

The attendance figures matter less to me than getting a good look at the career timeline with specifics. What were his top feuds? How many main events did he get in top buildings/major markets? Where was he positioned on the cards and for how long? How many world title shots, against who and where were the matches held? In the absence of figures those are the things I look for.