Dylan Waco

Looking at early ballots it seems obvious Lesnar is going on which I consider a real shame. It's not Angle level, but the case is based on UFC and the hopes people have vested in him.

Why would they be at the bottom of the list Parv? I'm not saying I disagree just curious as to your reasoning

Define "do well?" Ideally I want some degree of versatility and range, but if someone is a master at one particular style, form, role, et. it's hard for me to view their failure to do anything else as a negative.

I probably reviewed it years ago, but have no memory of it. Perhaps I'll revisit it soon

I absolutely love the Tony St. Clair match from 93 if you are looking for another really high end Funk performance from the 90's

The only guys on the list above I would personally consider would be Aries, Ki and maybe Nigel (though I am so down on him after his documentary it's hard for me to be objective). But since the indie thing was made an issue of I do think these guys should get threads. I just don't want to be the guy who has to nominate them.

I think WarGames 94 is a US MOTYC for whatever that is worth

Moxley was a Phil Schneider, Dylan Hales, WKO, indie favorite for several years before he was signed.

Only endorsing Will v. Joe angle if "Hey Joe" is the lead in song

Several people who have a case that rests largely on indie work have been nominated, but there are others still out there that people seem to be high on. I asked via Twitter for some recommendations, but I don't want to be the guy nominating all these people, especially since I don't like a couple of them at all. Here are the names I've heard that haven't been nominated: Richochet Evan Bourne/Matt Sydal Low Ki Kevin Steen Mike Quackenbush Roderick Strong Christopher Daniels Austin Aries Homicide Amazing Red Ian Rotten Johnny Gargano Tyler Black Davey Richards Bobby Fish Kyle O'Reilly Sara Del Ray Nigel McGuinness Others worth considering Jon Moxley/Dean Ambrose Brodie Lee/Luke Harper Sami Callihan/whatever his WWE gimmick is This thread is mainly here to drive some people to start nominating/reviewing matches from these guys so they can get representation in the process.

The 91 stadium brawl with Colon is great, but Abby is not even close to Colon's best opponent. I love Abby, but Colon got as much or more out of guys like Steve Strong and Hercules Ayala

I literally have no clue what you mean by "spirit of the times."

I would say Joe was no worse than top five in the world from the cumulative period between 04-06.

Really? I love the Aries match, but what else did Joe do that year? He has had some random good matches over the last few years, but never felt super consistent to me. Someone should start an Aries thread/nominate the required matches.

The flipside is we can't say Flair's post-prime is irrelevant and/or minimally relevant to his case, and then say Joe's post-prime swallows alive is universally loved peak...or can we? Note that I don't think I'd vote for Joe if you held a gun to my head, but he is an interesting candidate precisely because he had an off the charts peak followed by TNA killing his soul

I think this is an important point and it speaks to something I wanted to write a bit about in response to the latest kerfuffle (really wanted to use that word). Though I have seen other criticisms, generally there is one major criticism I see levied against PWO. The criticism usually boils down to this "I am intimidated and/or feel that it may be intimidating for others to post certain viewpoints on PWO because generally speaking PWO has a line on Wrestler X, and my view runs counter to that line." I have a few problems with this. The first problem is that for the most part I don't think this is true. Yes there are certain wrestlers who are thought of very favorably here who might not be and/or aren't talked about much elsewhere (El Dandy, Buddy Rose, et). Yes there are guys who are thought of less favorably here than they are may be elsewhere (Brody, Sayama, et.). But these are still general statements. More to the point the people that praise and/or attack these wrestlers are usually do so only after watching a ton of their work - more often than not in context with other workers from the relevant promotions and time periods - and are providing detailed reasons for what they do or don't like about the wrestlers. Can you find dismissive posts like Will saying AJ Styles wouldn't make his top 750? Yes, but I also immediately called him on that, and lots of times even dismissive comments like that lead to tons of solid discussion/debate (see my HHH thread for example or the "would Shawn Michaels make your top 100?" thread). The second problem I have with this criticism is that the people who make it are often incredibly dismissive themselves. Whether it be someone coming into a thread and saying "Brody was great here, it's not my fault if you can't see it," or someone claiming that there are dozens of matches from 2014 better than any match form anywhere on Earth in 1987 and the primary reason for that is athleticism, or whatever else, I see plenty of statements that run counter to alleged PWO orthodoxies that are just as dismissive and/or grandiose in their claims, as anything someone like Will or I might say about someone like Hiroshi Tanahashi. What's notable is that I have NO PROBLEM with this line of argument, but I can't take seriously the claims of dismissive elitism being a negative for the board when they are made by dismissive elitists. One final problem I'll mention now, is that I think the call for more open mindedness or whatever is being advocated for, would really ruin the board. What is good about this board is that people do discuss and debate things. The idea of PWO becoming a place where people feel the need to preface every statement with "In my opinion" or "well it's good for that style!" or whatever, would turn this place into another uninteresting, boring place to talk about wrestling. I am all for Tanahashi fans, Devitt fans, Gargano fans, et. coming in and giving their thoughts on things and engaging in debate. I am not in favor of them enjoying a privileged status on the grounds that their feelings may be hurt if I say mean things about their favorite wrestler (side note, one of the posts I found the most insulting and narrow minded in the history of this forum, was one made by someone cited in this debate as a model of fandom. Point being - a lot of this is in the eye of the beholder). If people feel indie guys are underrepresented in the GWE forum, nominate some indie guys and make the case. If people feel modern NJPW is unfairly maligned here, make a thread and review the matches/shows (OJ has been giving favorably reviews to Tanahashi matches for months in The Microscope for example). If people think lucha is stylistically flawed or overrated, lets talk about it. Everyone does not have to agree or even be deferential to every point of view, even they should be deferential to every poster. There is a difference.

I would argue that the 2/3 Falls match with Bryan at Extreme Rules 2012 is a match where Sheamus looked every bit as good as Bryan - I'd argue better in some respects - while also being a tremendous MOTY level match. For t.v. bouts I would point to his matches v. Dean Ambrose and Titus O'Neil from t.v. this year, or even better than that last years Main Event match with Cesaro which I thought was MOTY level.

I enjoy the Roadies, but in the last ten years there are 25 teams I like better as workers

I've said this before, but to me Spike is one of the great tag workers of the 90s. With 3 different partners, working 3 distinct styles, he was able to get over, adapt and produce high end matches. The brawls teaming with Balls are the most well known and I enjoy them, but I think they pale in comparison to the matches he had teaming with Bubba against undercard acts, to say nothing of his team with Mikey which has excellent series' with both PG-13 and the CanAms (the best stateside CanAms matches by far). On top of that he was very good in singles settings, whether you put him in a title match v. Taz, had him pinball for Bam Bam, asked him to go 10 mins with Axl Rotten in an opener, or plugged him into a workrate multi-man match. His ECW run isn't enough to get him into my top 100 on it's own, but some solid WWE showings could get him down near the bottom where I'm likely to include some favorites.

Remember when he first showed up and we were all freaking out about Goldust carrying him in their series? In hindsight I don't think he was being carried. Sheamus has been at minimum very good since he debuted in the WWE. He has been someone that can be plugged in against virtually any wrestler and have a good match. I've seen him several times live and he's great in that setting. He is great at the random b-show match, and great when called upon to go 30 mins on Ppv v. Daniel Bryan. His offense is great. His selling is better than anyone else I can think of in the WWE. He's a crazy bumper for a guy his size. He's probably been the best guy in the WWE this year, certainly no worse than third. For those who think it's nuts to consider him id note that there are guys nominated with fewer quality years and way fewer quality matches.

Nominating Somers and Rose via 80s project

The thing about Joe is that he managed to have a sustained run of quality in TNA for close to 2 years. I don't think anyone else has come close to that. On top of that his initial TNA run was actually really strong, to the point where he was adding to his best in the world contender status via his work in TNA. To me he has to be considered because he was a very serious best in the world contender from 2004-2006, and those were years with some reasonsably steep competition for that title.

So a guy with hundreds of thousands of posts on the observer board, doesnt want to participate on the GWE project because he doesn't want to lower himself to the level of Matt D? I know you are trolling, but that's a weak effort.

I should mention that the match had a great finish that was perfect for the theme of the match

At one point Oz was down on the mat, Yagi went up top, and Oz just casually walked over to stop her and hit a move. That ticked me off. I did think the selling was good down the stretch, but early on Yagi seemed to be targeting the arm, though maybe that was just a way to effect the ribs? Either way I wouldn't call this a transcendent Oz selling performance.