Childs

I have found myself increasingly unmotivated to get through the end of '98 as the Nitro and Raw segments have strayed further and further from emphasizing good wrestling. Anybody else have that problem?

I don't want to put words in Parv's mouth, but I think he's arguing that main eventers don't simply stumble into those opportunities. They earn them by being great. And as a corollary, he's arguing that most wrestlers who were truly great earned strong card placements. So practically, it's rare to find career lower-card workers with strong cases for this list. Broadly, I agree with that line of thinking, though it has its limits, given the number of stiffs who've been thrown into main events over the years.

I'd say it's a bit disingenuous to make Arn the poster boy for midcarders, because he enjoyed a level of visibility and success in his career that most midcarders could only dream of. Horseman, Flair's sidekick, greatest tag wrestler ever, never slid down the card like Tito or Greg, and so on. Arn is a bad example of a midcarder. It's not disingenuous. I'm asking you how far you'd go in weighing card placement as a factor. Again, I'm on board with the idea that greatness generally correlates with strong card placement. But it's not a 1-for-1 correlation. Sid was always higher on the card than Regal, but I can't imagine many would argue Sid was better. So I'm asking you, as the guy who has stirred this pot, to explain how you'll factor card placement.

Let me twist the question back to you a little. Would you automatically rank Harley above Arn because Harley was NWA champ and Arn was never a true main eventer?

I'm close to finalizing, and I think it's going to be my No. 1.

Parv, I'm not sure what or whom you're really arguing against. Unless you're suggesting that a midcarder such as Arn or Regal couldn't outrank Hogan (which I don't think you are), what's the point? I get that you think people are foolish to say card placement is completely unimportant, and I agree with that. But past that, the 10 lower midcarder thing feels like something you created just to fight about it.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. But if I didn't enjoy it aesthetically and it also didn't have a lasting impact, it's not going to move my vote. You're pretty mixed on MVC in general, aren't you?

Not saying this to be snarky at all but hasn't it already had significant shelf life compared to a lot of shit they do?

I basically agree with Parv that card placement matters in the big picture. But this feels like a strawman, given that few people are arguing for lower midcarders. I do expect plenty of guys to make the top 100 based heavily on midcard and upper midcard work. So I'd say card placement matters less once you get past a certain point.

I seem to be in the minority, but I have no problem with another Cena-Lesnar. They have great chemistry and I see a natural arc for their 2014-2015 series. Lesnar overwhelmed Cena at Summerslam. Cena showed he could compete in match No. 2 but couldn't close the show. And in match No. 3, he'll either take the last step or Lesnar will be reaffirmed as a monster going into Mania.

Agreed. Their matches took some patience, it was a different pace from what was done in the US at the time. Question for everyone: does being put in a position to re-educate the fanbase on a new working style impress you enough to consider it when ranking wrestlers? I won't give Doc and Gordy credit for it because they were mostly lousy at working holds and didn't actually change much of anything,

Yeah, I can't stand him. He'd be in the bottom 5-10 of all the nominated wrestlers for me. He epitomizes the modern puro star who's so desperate to look tough that he always does five things when he could do three. Just total numbing overkill. The sad thing is he actually is a tough bastard by all accounts.

Yeah, I get that. Just seems strange.

Why in the hell is Rollins-Cena going on next? Is this going to be a 90-minute show?

Thank you, spokesman for the world.

My 5-year-old son, who's never cared a lick about wrestling, got totally sucked into that match and jumped up and down in celebration when Ziggler won. So that was cool.

Yeah, I haven't had very good luck with it either.

I said Rude wasn't a "top worker" for more than a few years. Didn't say a word about whether he was "on top." I think you're just misunderstanding the phrasing.

No, that's pretty much right. He peaked in '94 and was mostly done as a top worker after his drug bust. But his peak year was really something, one of the best anybody had in the '90s.

But it's like you refuse to see the nuance of the point. Yes, he thought it was shitty that WWE kept building its big Wrestlemania matches around making part-timers look strong. But that's really not the same as saying part-timers are assholes for wanting to work big matches. If Dana immediately stuck Punk in a title match and Punk praised it as a genius promotional move, that would be hypocrisy.

He deserves some bashing by wrestling fans given his loud and frequent criticisms of Rock, Brock, Taker and other part-timers "who won't be there on Monday" given he hasn't done anything to earn a spot in UFC. You guys keep misreading his criticism of the part-timer situation. It was always much more directed at WWE for putting those guys over than at the part-timers themselves. I'm pretty middle-of-the-road on Punk overall, but the talk of him as a hypocrite on this specific point is misguided.

I know I'm just joining the chorus, but their search set-up is so much better than WWE's.

He was handcuffed and beaten against his will 2 weeks prior. HANDCUFFED AND BEATEN. Show a little fire. He beat the guy who handcuffed him and humiliated him in the process. He punished HHH the best way he could in storyline terms. (Understand, I'm not begrudging you your reaction.)

It wasn't supposed to be a hate match; it was about Bryan proving himself against his ultimate naysayer, winning and earning the title shot. He couldn't afford to be out of control in that context.

For the Piper fans out there, you should hunt down his two New Japan matches from Sept. 1977 that are in circulation, one against a young Choshu and another against Inoki. Nothing hugely revelatory but it's interesting to see him in that setting. His brawling helped draw out a fairly spirited performance from Inoki, which wasn't necessarily Inoki's norm against random touring foreigners.