Childs

The 619 debate reached a stalemate long ago. Either it bugs you aesthetically or it doesn't.

That just feels like him reaching for reasons to pick at a guy he didn't like. Vader wasn't supposed to be a run-of-the-mill big man. He was in the main event because he was a remarkable specimen, and he wrestled like a remarkable specimen. I find it extremely hard to believe the stuff he did had any real impact on the way fans viewed lower-card workers. I know that never would have entered my mind. So I hope Honky enjoys his smugness, all the while ignoring the fact he's remembered as a joke where Vader is remembered by many as the greatest big man ever.

I'd pretty much strayed from wrestling when I first started dating in '92-'93. But I was back watching the Monday night wars when I started dating my future wife in '96. I think she assumed I was a geek about multiple things (accurate) and didn't care about the details, though I'm sure she didn't foresee me becoming a more intense fan in my 30s than I was in my 20s. She went to Starcade '98 with me. I'm much more apt to remember fooling around in her Oldsmobile with Oasis on the radio or watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer in her dorm room. Wrestling never held that kind of place as a shared experience. She's remained indifferent to it but has never begrudged me my interest. I think she likes that I get intensely curious when I'm excited about my hobbies or at least accepts that it's intrinsic to my nature. Can't ask for more than that, especially now that we're juggling two kids.

Is that from the Jumbo Legend commercial tape? If so, have it but don't think I've ever watched it. Something else for the agenda. I do think '70s Jumbo is suffering a bit in this discussion because there's almost too much footage of him, relative to what's available for his peers. It makes him much easier to nitpick, and I've been as guilty of that as anyone. He was the lesser guy in many of his great matches from the '70s, but in the big picture, I'll still treat it as a strong positive that he hung with Brisco, Robinson and the Funks in main events at an age when most guys are green as snap peas. It's not the heart of his case, but it's significant.

I thought of Cortez but a lot of his best stuff came in the early '80s. Same for Jones, I guess, though he had the great Rocco series and the Rudge match in the '70s.

Of the great WOS guys, Clive Myers, Steve Grey and Marty Jones were all pumping out excellent matches by the middle of the decade. Alan Sarjeant and Steve Veidor maybe? Though Sarjeant didn't make tape a lot. I know OJ is a big fan of Tibor Szakacs.

But if he watches those matches and doesn't like any of them, he can safely write off shootstyle. There's a little bit of everything in that mix. Han-Yamamoto is a good pick as well.

Yuko Miyato vs. Minoru Suzuki, UWF 2/9/90 Suzuki was rocking an aquamarine headband as he entered. He sold Miyato's first kick as a low blow, which I guess it was. I didn't love the early double knockdown off a pair of slaps. The shots didn't look heavy enough to merit that dramatic pause. They went from there to a longish stretch of even grappling and tentative striking. Suzuki finally broke the stalemate with a fireman's carry takeover and that dropkick he loved to use in this period. Nifty combo of moves there. He followed with a headbutt and a judo throw for another knockdown. After eating a knockdown kick from Miyato, Suzuki answered with a powerslam of all things and hooked in a sleeper with his legs wrapped around Miyato's waist. But Miyato somehow hooked Suzuki's heel with his calf for a flash submission. I had to rewind the finish three times to figure it out, and it seemed to elude the crowd as well. So maybe too subtle? Anyway, they delivered quite the flurry of action in the last two minutes after a so-so middle. This wasn't a complete performance by Suzuki, but he did demonstrate what a dynamic offensive wrestler he was at a young age. Minoru Suzuki vs. Osamu Nishimura, New Japan 1/4/04 This was from the Dome show, still early in Suzuki's comeback from MMA. Suzuki set the tone, smacking Nishimura off the first break in the corner. Cool mat spot early where Nishimura tried to do a headstand out of a headscissors but Suzuki immediately pulled him into an armbar as if to say "We're not screwing around here." Suzuki then got the better of a standing battle and leveled Nishimura with some nasty kicks to the body. Nishimura cut him off with a dragon leg screw and a series of spinning toe holds. But Suzuki rolled through one of the toe holds to apply another armbar. One thing that's come across in every match is how great Suzuki is at creative counters. More fun grappling from there as Nishimura responded to Suzuki's submissions with a series of neat roll-up attempts. And on about the fifth one, he got the sudden three count. I'm all for succinct matches, but I would've been happy to watch these guys for more than 9 minutes. I enjoyed what they did, but Nishimura is an excellent seller, and he didn't really have the time to show that. I also would've enjoyed a bit more toe-to-toe slugging with Suzuki's kicks and slaps against Nishimura's terrific Euro uppercuts. Oh well. They had a much longer match in the '04 G-1 that I'll get to at some point.

This would be really sad if there was anyone actually voting like that. I guess I'll have to have a look at a few more shoot-style matches if it really does warrant looking at. I have been thinking that I could try to come at it with the mindset that it's no different from WoS or early 70s US/ Japanese work, we'll see. If someone can put together 10 matches in the shoot style that are thought of as ***** classics, I will watch them. That's the equivalent of giving Miles Davis or John Coltrane a fair shake I think. Here's 15, Parv, not necessarily all the best of the best but a good cross section with some pure fun: Fujiwara vs. Super Tiger, UWF 12/5/84 Takada vs. Maeda, UWF 11/10/88 Takada vs. Backlund, UWF 12/22/88 Funaki vs. Nakano, UWF 7/24/89 Fujiwara vs. Yamazaki, UWF 7/24/89 Shamrock vs. Sano, PWFG 5/19/91 Han vs. Vrij, RINGS 8/21/92 Sano vs. Anjoh, UWFI 8/13/93 Albright & Severn vs. Hashimikov & Berkovich, UWFI 12/5/93 (not a 5-star classic but it's a super-heated match w. evil Russians!) Takada vs. Vader, UWFI 8/18/94 Han vs. Tamura, RINGS 1/22/97 Ishikawa vs. Ikeda, BattlARTS 4/15/97 Tamura vs. Kohsaka, RINGS 6/27/98 Tamura vs. Yammamoto, RINGS 9/21/98 Yuki Ishikawa & Alexander Otsuka vs Daisuke Ikeda & Mohammed Yone, BattlARTS 1/12/99

I also enjoyed Tanahashi's early heeling and Suwama's big-man tope. But then this settled into paint-by-numbers Tanahashi, complete with the tepid, blown-off legwork and the spectacular, yet overdone finishing stretch. It wasn't bad or boring, but my attention drifted because I knew exactly where the whole thing was going and Suwama did little to put a different stamp on it. I did like Suwama selling the leg after Tanahashi landed on his knees with the second High Fly Flow. Anyway, the match didn't stand out enough to make my list.

Shoot style had an impact on the development of modern Japanese wrestling, whether it's directly represented in the present day or not. A lot of people think New Japan is the best wrestling promotion in the world right now. Some of its biggest stars were obviously influenced by the Maeda-Fujiwara-Takada generation. And that's not even touching on Suzuki and Sakuraba, who came directly from shoot style. I don't have a problem with people rejecting certain styles. I do it myself. But I don't buy the canon argument as a reason for ignoring shoot style. It's fine if you just think it's boring.

I always knew you were misguided.

Wellington Wilkins vs. Minoru Suzuki, UWF 1/16/90 This was the second match on the first UWF card of 1990. Suzuki and Funaki, both of whom had worked their first matches in New Japan, were the bright young stars of this second UWF go-round. It's striking how different Suzuki looked at this point as a fresh-faced 21-year-old with a lush head of hair. I've always enjoyed Wilkins, whether he was working shoot style in Japan or stretching a young Sean Waltman in Minneapolis. Suzuki showed his dickish side right away, smacking the shit out of Wilkins as they probed for position in the opening minute. The grappling here wasn't exactly peak RINGS, but it all carried a sense of struggle, with Suzuki adding nasty little touches like grinding his knuckles into Wilkins' face. Suzuki hit a bunch of violent takedowns and earned the biggest pop of the match with a ferocious dropkick that knocked Wilkins clear out of the ring. Wilkins looked a touch bewildered when Suzuki stomped the shit out of him after fighting out of a front facelock. Wilkins got a choke on Suzuki late, which Suzuki sold with a nice, big cough. The crowd gave an appreciative murmur when Wilkins tagged him with a receipt stomp on the break. You go, Wellington. Suzuki didn't like that and quickly dropped Wilkins with a flurry of slaps and knees. He then finished him with a viciously torqued half crab. This wasn't a UWF classic but was a very good match with a lot packed into 12 minutes, 43 seconds. Suzuki perhaps felt the need to take a bit too much of the match instead of letting Wilkins look like a greater threat. But all his tools were already on display, from the surly attitude to the cool submissions to that innate ability to draw a crowd reaction. Minoru Suzuki & Masayuke Naruse vs. Josh Barnett & Koji Kanemoto, New Japan 8/15/03 This was just the third match of Suzuki's comeback to pro wrestling and a little special attraction during the 2003 G-1. Barnett and Kanemoto both got right in Suzuki's face before the match, talking shit and shoving. Koji and Naruse started off sparring, but the crowd popped as soon as Naruse tagged in Suzuki. Right off, he slammed Kanemoto in front of Barnett as a sort of macho challenge. Kanemoto came right back at him and hit a nice judo takedown. But Suzuki quickly got the better of him on the mat. Barnett tagged in to another big pop and took Suzuki down. They ran through some quick mat counters but were really just goofing off. The main body of the match consisted of Barnett and Kanemoto demolishing the smaller Naruse, though we did get a fun interlude of Suzuki abusing Koji with a half crab and a nasty heel hook. Barnett and Suzuki worked another little mat sequence late in the match, but it didn't amount to much. Suzuki nailed him with a a nasty stomp and a few palm thrusts to set up an armbar. But Barnett scooted quickly to the ropes, and Suzuki tagged out. Their interactions were pretty disappointing, given the pre-match theatrics. The match ended with Naruse eating a knockout off a Barnett throw. At a little more than 11 minutes, this was a brisk watch with some fun moments but slight overall. Though Suzuki offered hints of his charisma and badass submission work, he didn't really put his stamp on the match. Minoru Suzuki vs. Togi Makabe, New Japan 8/3/14 Suzuki jumped right in Makabe's face with a scowl and they started the match wailing on each other in a clinch, almost like a hockey fight. Suzuki gained the early advantage with chairshots at ringside and then methodically worked Makabe over with kicks, knees and forearms. All his strikes looked great. He also paused to laugh at his foe's pain. Makabe eventually focused on Suzuki's leg after wrenching it along the guardrail. Suzuki sold the shit out of it, writhing around and slapping his knee in hopes of regaining feeling. Every so often, he reversed a Makabe move into his sleeper, reminding the fans how dangerous he remained. Suzuki regained control in nifty fashion, seeming to bait Makabe with a false hobble and then popping him with a quick dropkick. He then delivered a badass finishing sequence, dropping Makabe with a potato shot, drilling him with a running boot and then whipping him into a grounded sleeper. This match showcased Suzuki's straight-up killer side. He sold Makabe's leg attack admirably but left an even greater impression with that commanding burst of offense to put the match away. Suzuki really comes off as a guy who could kill anyone given the right 10-second opening, and he's able to give his opponent a significant stretch of the match without ever seeming less dangerous.

On the plus side, they pulled off some genuinely spectacular stuff, which is what a match like this needs to stand out. The finishing spot looked great, but the one I really popped for was Ishimori's springboard dropkick on a sprinting Ibushi. Quite the feat of timing. On the minus, Marufuji took me out of the match every time he became the focus, because his offense looked so shitty. This run through the 2000s has confirmed every bad thought I ever had about him and his thigh-slapping garbage. The match also featured a few too many instances of guys taking weird pauses so an opponent could execute the next elaborate move. That's probably unavoidable with such difficult spots, but it bugged me nonetheless. This probably won't make my ballot, but it wasn't a hard watch.

Well this was something. We really haven't gotten too many great brawls in this project, but Nagata and Makabe delivered a great fucking brawl. Makabe obviously set the tone by goring the champ with weapons and doing an epic blade job on himself. But Nagata fought back with awesome intensity, to the point where I almost regret calling him boring so many times over the years. He absolutely took me on the ride with this one, fighting off a maniac challenger and his minions. I'm right there with dawho5 in decrying the overly elaborate finishing runs that plagued Japanese wrestling in these years. But I did not agree in this case. The intensity never waned. I also thought the ref was fine, portraying an authority figure overwhelmed by an insane situation. In these votes, I always reward the matches that stick with me, and I have no doubt this one will stick with me.

I've noticed a perception among some that Minoru Suzuki's recent MOTYC performances against Hiroshi Tanahashi and A.J. Styles came out of nowhere after a relatively undistinguished career as midcarder. But I actually think Suzuki is one of the more fascinating workers out there. He was a world-class amateur and a key member of the second generation of shoot style workers. Then he left for a whole decade to fight in Pancrase, where he was a top star and a guy put over as a genuinely dangerous grappler by the Shamrocks, Bas Rutten, etc. He returned to pro wrestling in 2003 with wilder hair and a devilish smirk, and in the 11 years since, he's managed significant runs in New Japan, All Japan and NOAH, with scattered appearances in just about every Japanese indy. I love watching the guy, but honestly, I'm not even sure how good he's been. So I'm going to explore matches from all phases of his career. Any suggestions for overlooked or interesting specimens would be most appreciated. I'll start with a match I just watched for Ditch's "Best of the 2000s" project: Minoru Suzuki vs. Keiji Mutoh, All Japan 7/1/07 Suzuki, defending his Triple Crown title, showed up with his topknot bleached and a white trunks-boots ensemble that made him look like a demonic baby. They started on the mat, with some decent work that was hurt only by the incongruity of a 44-year-old Mutoh wrestling evenly with a former world-class grappler. Suzuki took the match to the outside, where Mutoh gained the first real advantage with a dragon screw on the apron. As old-man highspots go, I liked Mutoh's dropkick from the timekeeper's table onto Suzuki's leg. Suzuki did a nice job selling Mutoh's legwork, alternating between mocking tongue wags and real expressions of agony. Nifty transition spot where he caught Mutoh with an octopus on the top turnbuckle. Then he continued to sell on offense, hobbling around and using his left leg for kicks instead of his damaged right. Mutoh shook off Suzuki's sleeper a little too easily and transitioned directly to a series of ugly shining wizards. God, he had lost quite a bit athletically, even from 2001. He could barely get his knee to Suzuki's head. Another nifty counter by Suzuki as he squirmed out of an attempted backbreaker directly into a heel hook. Suzuki approached this match kind of like one of his mentors, Fujiwara--working defensively against the bigger striker while probing for openings to throw on one one of his deadly submissions. I loved Suzuki's mocking dragon screw after Mutoh reached the ropes to break the heel hook. Then we got a strong finishing sequence, with Mutoh hitting a desperation dragon screw only to get caught back in the heel hook when he tried another one. And he tapped. That's what you want in a finish--tight, suspenseful, played perfectly off the key notes of the match. Mutoh's physical limitations and spotty selling kept this from being an upper-half selection for the '00s. It lacked the intensity of an elite match. But Suzuki delivered an excellent performance as champion, with expressive selling and creative submission work.

Suzuki showed up with his topknot bleached and a white trunks-boots ensemble that made him look like a demonic baby. They started on the mat, with some decent work that was hurt only by the incongruity of a 44-year-old Mutoh wrestling evenly with a former world-class grappler. Suzuki took the match to the outside, where Mutoh gained the first real advantage with a dragon screw on the apron. As old-man highspots go, I liked Mutoh's dropkick from the timekeeper's table onto Suzuki's leg. Suzuki did a nice job selling Mutoh's legwork, alternating between mocking tongue wags and real expressions of agony. Nifty transition spot where he caught Mutoh with an octopus on the top turnbuckle. Then he continued to sell on offense, hobbling around and using his left leg for kicks instead of his damaged right. Mutoh shook off Suzuki's sleeper a little too easily and transitioned directly to a series of ugly shining wizards. God, he had lost quite a bit athletically, even from 2001. He could barely get his knee to Suzuki's head. Another nifty counter by Suzuki as he squirmed out of an attempted backbreaker directly into a heel hook. Suzuki approached this match kind of like one of his mentors, Fujiwara--working defensively against the bigger striker while probing for openings to throw on one one of his deadly submissions. I loved Suzuki's mocking dragon screw after Mutoh reached the ropes to break the heel hook. Then we got a strong finishing sequence, with Mutoh hitting a desperation dragon screw only to get caught back in the heel hook when he tried another one. And he tapped. That's what you want in a finish--tight, suspenseful, played perfectly off the key notes of the match. Mutoh's physical limitations and spotty selling kept this from being an upper-half selection for the '00s. It lacked the intensity of an elite match. But Suzuki delivered an excellent performance as champion, with expressive selling and creative submission work.

If we're going Japanese interpromotional, I'll take NJ/WAR as the dessert for my NJ/UWF feast. From the incredible heat for the 10/23/92 show at Korakuen to all the uber-violent six-mans to the Hash-Tenryu singles matches, it dished up non-stop greatness for more than a year. And you know, Tenryu!

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

I'm behind on CMLL, so can someone give me a thumbnail on Hechicero, Cavernario and the whole Busca de Idolo thing?

No, and I didn't think you were trolling in this thread. I take you at your word that you saw an injustice in this case.

Did you have a flute of champagne when Tanaka-Awesome ended? In all seriousness, the yearbooks have also sustained me through times when my fandom was at a lower ebb. I haven't always watched them with the same determination as Loss, Chad or Pete. But they're the most reliable entertainment in my collection. I honestly didn't think Will would pull off even one when he and Loss started kicking around the concept. And to think we now have a whole decade--it's impressive work by you guys. And Loss's reviews should provide a massive reference for years to come. I know there was nothing remotely likely this when I began digging deeper into the hobby. I hope we surge on through the early 2000s, but no rush. After all, I'm still waylaid in 1998, with mounds of 2000s puro and old WOS distracting me.

Both the MUGA nominees are absolute treasures, and the only difficulty will be deciding which should go higher. The Saito match maybe felt a little more vicious, but this one featured some of the best dueling legwork I've seen, complete with terrific selling by Nishimura and some of the best king-of-the-mountain work this side of Nick Bockwinkel. Fujinami was one of the greatest of all time, so I guess it shouldn't be shocking he had one last gem in his bag, especially when matched with a first-class technician and protege. But this match exceeds my expectations every time I watch it.

This match was a total blast, with Shibata and KENTA acting like such punks toward Taue and a finishing stretch devoid of NOAH excess. Taue in this period delivered such a great combination of pride and bewilderment that these young fuckers kept coming at him with such vigor. And I've loved the Shibata-KENTA team in general. Shibata, in stark contrast to Marufuji, brought out the best parts of KENTA--all pace, violence and surliness. Give me this over another 30-minute "epic" every day of the week.

I think I'll rank at least this and the Dec. 2001 match. This one was maybe a little less violent but with more focus, as Crackers noted. And Satomura beating Aja no longer felt like an upset, which suggests how their long series evolved, even though the matches all contained similar elements. Definitely one of my favorite Joshi rivalries, right up there with Kong-Kansai and a few others.