Childs
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Why? Just curios if you were doing greatest actors or musicians would it include women? What about figure skaters or dancers? Even sports. Say, greatest track and field stars would include women on it. I'm confused by your statement there. I have to agree with W2BTD here, no woman will make my list either, I personally feel that the women should have there own top 25 category like the tag teams but that's just my opinion, its just silly imo to try to compare Akiro Hokuto, MadUSA, or Sherri Martel to Rick Martel, Roddy Piper or AJ Styles, maybe its just me, maybe I'm not as open minded as some but either way it's just not gonna happen for me I'll just say that for me, comparing Martel and Hokuto is no more a stretch than comparing Volk Han and Rey Mysterio Jr. or Atsushi Onita and Johnny Saint. The stylistic spectrum is vast, women or no women.
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Taue finished No. 26 in the SC poll. Does he really need a revolution?
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Well no, she's not. She's more dominant in her sport than he was in his. It's not the same sport and isn't treated as such by the competitors or the people who cover it. Not going to turn this into an all out tennis discussion, but I disagree with you. In every way possible I view Serena as a better tennis player than Roddick, and I really liked Roddick and disliked Serena. Oh, and I never bought the different sport argument, it's a way of compartmentalizing the differences that sprouted up between the two genders, but it's still the same sport. It seems there might be a real discussion to be had here about how we all view gender in the context of the poll. It's not a cut and dry issue for a lot of people; Will, Charles and I have discussed it several times in our year-in-review podcasts without coming to a clear answer. And I don't want to get sidetracked on tennis either, but your take on it does drive me a little crazy. Tell me Serena is a greater athlete than Roddick and I won't argue a bit. But if the two of them played tennis, she wouldn't win a game. So don't tell me she's better at tennis. If it were all one sport, they'd play each other, and the best women would measure themselves against the best men. They don't.
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Well no, she's not. She's more dominant in her sport than he was in his. It's not the same sport and isn't treated as such by the competitors or the people who cover it. The issue is muddier in wrestling, for the reasons you cited.
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I love oddball match-ups like this and they really carried it off. Fujita was such a bull, and all credit to Tanahashi for taking his ass beating and working around the opponent's strengths. His offense looked just credible enough that he made a compelling underdog. I wish the puro of this era featured more examples of strong, simple work. This was absolutely perfect for the guys involved and will do well for me.
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This was perfect little badass vs. big badass. If KENTA had focused his entire career on wrestling short, not matches like this, he'd be a shoe-in for my GWE list.
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I was disappointed to see Takayama become a bystander for much of this. I've never liked Sugiura much, and this confirmed my worst thoughts about him as he felt the need to look tougher than Baba and Jumbo rolled together before taking a pin from a guy who outweighed him by 50 pounds. Rikio and Akiyama were solid, though Akiyama's failure to stand out as the boss in a match like this speaks to why he'll never be viewed on the same level as Misawa, Kawada or Kobashi. Another NOAH match that dragged on and on, and it probably won't make my list. -
I could see being a lower voter on Negro Casas. I respect his longevity and charisma, but he's never punched my buttons like the other cream of the crop luchadores. I mentioned in the other thread that Gordy or Race could fall off entirely, so if I vote for them, it won't be high. Dibiase will probably be in my bottom 20-25, though I'm not sure how unusual that might be. Eddy could fall to the 30-40 range for me, where he probably would've been top 10 a few years ago. I was interested, glancing at the SC list just now, how well the Joshi workers did--eight of the top 50. I can't imagine that will hold up, though I hope we still have some Joshi lovers representing.
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I could definitely see leaving Shawn off. Maybe Harley? Or Gordy? Backlund. Rude. Koji Kanemoto. Toyota. Ozaki. Yokota. Maybe Akira Hokuto, even though she was amazing for a year or two. Mutoh and Chono probably won't make it, though I don't imagine those will be unusual omissions. The Rock and Hogan are unlikely. I need to figure out what the hell to do with the Destroyer, though he'll probably make it once I rewatch his best performances.
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I had very similar thoughts about this one, and the sad thing was that as much as they did, the crowd seemed flat for most of it. I will probably list this as well, but it was a great 20-25-minute match stretched over 35, or whatever it ended up being. One big KENTA comeback was all they needed.
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In going back through the '90s , I've learned to fast forward through segments involving Dreamer. He's right up there with '91 Hulk Hogan among the most loathsome babyfaces ever. This might be a gross generalization, but he seemed to build a lot of his work toward bullying weaker people. I wish both he and Raven had stayed at that summer camp where they met and become lifelong counselors instead of wrestlers.
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Shawn's 1997 heel run is also by far my favorite. He was a schmarmy dickhead by nature and he finally ran with it in a way that felt organic. It was among the great portrayals of ego run amok I've seen in wrestling, perhaps because it was hardly a "portrayal" at all. I keep going back to his performance against Davey in England, where he was such a massive, heat-generating prick. Loss is right; his physical ailments and addiction caught up to him enough that he never had the run he should've with that character. He only produced a handful of noteworthy matches in that time. But for a few months, he was a great performer, totally in his element. Here's my review of the Davey match from the '97 threads: I don't know; I thought this made for a great piece of wrestling theater. The crowd loved Shawn bumping around for Bulldog in the early part of the match. And I didn't mind all the interference spots, stacking the deck against the local hero. I get the questions about the missing Hart Foundation. But I could also see Davey wanting to go it alone as the gallant native. The bit where Davey's leg went out on the powerslam at ringside came off well. And I loved Shawn tossing Davey's knee brace to Diana before applying the figure four. The heat at the end, with Shawn baiting the crowd, was just insane. This reminds me of the NWO Horsemen skit because it seems more dickish in retrospect, given the lack of revenge on Shawn. But the dude delivered an awesome heel performance and created a super-intense ending to a fantastic show.
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[2005-11-05-NOAH-3rd Great Voyage] Takeshi Rikio vs Akira Taue
Childs replied to Loss's topic in November 2005
The crowd was great, and I was of course excited to see Taue win the title. But I can't see listing this. As smart as Taue was, he no longer had the physical ability to drag a slug like Rikio to a high-end singles match. A lot of the offense from both guys just looked like shit. I agree Taue made it about as good as it could have been, but he and the crowd weren't enough to sweep me away. -
This was a bunch of fun, even it lacked the smart build to make it truly great. I popped huge for the few times when Morishima got angry and tossed KENTA around like a third grader. And this is my favorite version of KENTA--reckless little fucker throwing himself at men who outweigh him by 100-150 pounds. Shibata brought his requisite ass stomping. Yeah, this will sneak onto my list, even if it was just a collection of cool moments.
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[2009-01-25-NOAH-First Navigation] KENTA vs Kotaro Suzuki
Childs replied to Loss's topic in January 2009
I liked the dynamic of Suzuki trying to win through extreme heeling. My favorite bit was probably his use of fake blood in an attempt to frame KENTA to the ref. That said, this match went on for fucking ever. It was like they did a did a nifty 15 minutes and then KENTA had to jam a regular KENTA match on top of that. I did love the last spot of Suzuki grabbing the ref's arm to prevent the three count. But they'd kind of lost me by then. This felt like a bloated, lesser version of KENTA-SUWA. That match will do super well for me; this one might sneak in the bottom 10-15. -
Don't forget Herodes, if the Tony Salazar match is any indication.
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Owen's '97 match against Vader was substantially better than Shawn's defense against the big guy. On the other hand, I'd take Shawn's awesome heel performance against Davey in England over Owen-Davey from earlier in '97, which was technically impressive but left me cold. I don't see much case for Davey having a better overall resume than Shawn unless you put huge stock in Davey's early British stuff. With Owen, I guess I could see the argument. I'd rather watch Owen than Shawn because he was so gifted and so adaptable. But Shawn was essential to more great matches. Owen didn't want to be great as badly as Shawn, Bret, etc., which was good for him as a human, bad for him as a GOAT candidate.
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This has always been one of those matches I recognize as really well done and yet don't connect with. That was the case again on this viewing, but I can't pinpoint the reason. I think to some degree, I just don't like the way either guy executed his offense. So the whole thing felt very "performed" to me. But I'm not sure that's an argument I can back up in any meaningful way. Clearly, the crowd loved it, and the spot with Chyna paid off the storytelling. I don't know; can't please all of the people all of the time, I guess.
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[1998-08-30-WWF-Summerslam] Owen Hart vs Ken Shamrock (Lion's Den)
Childs replied to Loss's topic in August 1998
This was fine but felt less special than the dungeon match, where they did such a great job of incorporating the environment. Shamrock did some neat stuff, springing off the cage and such. But this felt like more of a standard wrestling match. Nothing wrong with that. I just thought the other one was particularly cool. -
Just watched the Tanahashi-Nakamura from 2/15/09, and it was probably my favorite match they'd had to that point (haven't seen the 3/30/08), largely because Nakamura showed more fire and personality. Between that and his performance in the tag against Misawa at the Dome, it seems '09 was the year Nakamura started to come into his own. But picking up on Sleeze's comments, I have to agree Tanahashi became a fully formed worker well before his rival.
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As I've watched a bunch of 2000-2009 puro, trying to get a ballot together for Ditch, Takayama has steadily climbed my theoretical GWE list. He reminds me of '80s Choshu in that any scene he entered instantly got better, whether we're talking G-1, NOAH main events or undercard matches pitting him against that pipsqueak KENTA. Hell, even PRIDE. Around 2000-2001, he achieved a great understanding of what he brought to the table, along with that memorable look. And almost like Vader, he could plug himself into any context and produce something memorable. His absolute peak was short, I suppose, but the duration over which he produced entertaining matches was much longer, like 20 years. So that's plenty of meat. At some point before we vote, I'll need to do a focused rewatch of his UWFI work. But he'll definitely make my list.
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So has this been your most pleasant surprise of all the years so far?
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Don't forget point of clarity No. 3: Your post added absolutely fucking nothing to the conversation.
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You haven't refuted any points made here. Interesting. What is there to "refute?" You didn't like something that was self-evidently awesome. I'm not prepared to debate that with you. I'll take you at your word that you didn't like it. That's sad to me though. Look, I enjoy your work and respect your opinions. I'm glad you liked the show. If you care to talk about why, please do. But don't come here just to be an asshole to people who had a different reaction. That's a shitty way to be, and you're too smart not to recognize that you're trolling.