Childs

And the tag with Stan and Mossman vs. Kawada and Tenryu from 7/23/00 was an enjoyable war from his last year as a worker.

I like Mark Henry. I really do. I believe he's done a ton of smart things to maximize his performances over the last 10 years. But the idea that his best approaches the best of Vader and Andre just strikes me as nutty. I mean please, make that case if it's there. But I just don't see his Vader-Sting series or his Andre-Khan from '82.

I loved the '96 Hansen-Kobashi. Here's my review: I'm not sure I had ever seen this match, but it's a worthy addition to their great matches from earlier in the decade. Hansen turned in a great selling performance after posting his lariat arm. I appreciated how much he stuck with it and made it a key part of the finishing stretch. It felt character-appropriate, because he came off more as an aging gunslinger than the bionic cowboy of years past. It amazes me that some think of Hansen as a guy who made up for precision with stiffness. Watch the timing of his cutoff spots -- impeccable, even this late in his career. I also loved Kobashi's body punches as a response to Hansen's early-match potatoes. All in all, another testament to the greatness of All-Japan main events.

I just watched his 7/24/98 match with Akiyama, and Kobashi was fantastic, balancing vulnerability with his trademark resilience and the fact he was the boss in relation to Jun. Not many guys could have pulled off that performance.

I've never quite understood why you hate his UWFI matches so much. Is it more what he did or more your dislike for the whole aesthetic of that promotion? Or both?

I still don't think most people have seen them Dylan. But I'm right there with you in thinking it's one of the feuds of the decade and that the bullrope and cage matches are MOTD-level. It's a big part of Stan's No. 1 case for me, because he showed different shades than he did most other places.

I got totally swept away by this as well, which surprised me. It struck me as real evolutionary performance for Jun. We've learned that spunk and great talent weren't enough to beat Kobashi/Misawa/Kawada. You also needed tremendous focus. And this was the first time Akiyama really showed that in a big match, with his incredible assault on Kobashi's knee. I loved the way Kobashi fended Akiyama off after he drilled the knee the first time. But Akiyama doggedly went back to it and found every way imaginable to destroy that sucker. Kobashi also delivered an exceptional performance, selling a combination of vulnerability and insane toughness. That sequence late in the match, where he felled Jun with a vicious array of chops after hobbling along the edge of the ring, using the top rope to hold himself, was great, harrowing stuff. Tough choice between this and Kawada-Kobashi for All Japan MOTY and maybe for MOTY period.

Though Maeda looked gassed most of the way, they actually made that into something compelling, with the old ace having to gut it out just to survive. I'm not generally a fan of slap fights but man, those were some great slap fights, peppered with an occasional hook to the ribs. Because Maeda was genuinely tired, he did lie around some, which sucked some tension out of the middle of the match. But I wouldn't say it diminished the drama much in the end. Fun to see a different kind of main event from RINGS.

I just don't find Kanemoto as compelling as Ohtani down the stretch of these Liger matches. And the comparison is inevitable, because the layouts are similar. He did a terrible job of selling the accrued damage. I mean, even if he was going to do the hulk-ups, he didn't have to then move around like he was fresh as a daisy. Maybe that wouldn't have bothered me as much if I'd watched the whole match? But something felt off about the whole thing, with even Liger's final palm thrust striking me as out of rhythm.

I love that Jay Lethal match. If I recall correctly, didn't Ki talk shit to Lethal's mom, who was in the crowd? The Ki/Homicide vs. Joe/Lethal tags from '05 were also a lot of fun. Also hunt down his PWG BOLA match with Hero from '08, where the rope broke and they just murdered each other. And one of the Necro Butcher matches from IWA-Midsouth. The Danielson matches from '02 are probably his crown jewels.

I think it's a bad idea to extend it. The problem of not having a full handle on every candidate will always be there.

Yeah, I could see that.

Nigel is similar to Joe in that he might've been a top 5-10 guys for a few years but has little case beyond that. As much as I liked him at one time, I don't see the point in nominating him. Aries has a better body of work and is another rare guy who made TNA interesting. Ki was among the few indie guys who had the special aura, and he's probably my favorite from this list. I loved his heel run in ROH with the Rottweilers, and he had great, memorable matches with Danielson, Necro, Hero and others. I don't see a great top 100 case, but I'll probably nominate him if nobody else does. Then there are a bunch of guys I like who haven't done nearly enough, from Harper and Ambrose to Sami to Ricochet, etc. I don't think it's anti-indie bias to say most of those guys have very thin cases.

Where's his MOTYC in the '90s? Can't think of one. Not that he didn't have plenty of good outings.

Is there a point in debating this now? I told you the reason. It is what it is.

I don't think we gave much thought to the Dave 5-star thing. It really wasn't a match of huge historical significance. We're not talking Terry's retirement match from '83 or the tag league match with Hansen's debut in '81. And we had a version of the same match-up we clearly liked better. There are a few matches I regret leaving off; that isn't one of them. The only reason anybody talks about it is Dave's oddball rating.

It really hurts Joe that he's added very little to his GOAT case since the Smarkschoice poll. As Will said, it'd be different if he had a 10-year peak to fall back on. He doesn't. But he was a unique force in that indie golden age, a guy with a truly badass aura who could make matches feel big, even in a small setting. And his best shit has held up really well on recent viewings. Though his short peak probably keeps him off my list, he's another guy who was too good for me to dismiss him easily.

Finally watched Can-Ams-Funks and though it was an enjoyable match, I didn't come away with any regrets about it not making the All-Japan set. It would've been a fine selection but likely a bottom 25 match for me. I liked the Martel-Terry interactions, and the action hummed along at a nice pace. I just didn't find anything terribly memorable about it, so it would've gotten lost in the shuffle. As for the matches against Sheik-Abby, the '79 match was the clear standout. It included all the mayhem of the '78 brawl while coming off as a more complete match. Both were great though, and I'd absolutely recommend them to anyone looking for a different side of Dory. He excelled both as a face in peril and as the avenging angel when Terry was badly gored.

It just seems absurd to lay everything bad that's ever happened around death matches on Onita. It has nothing to do with his quality as a worker. Lots of guys in lots of styles have wrecked their bodies on the altar of pro wrestling. Why zero in on Onita as particularly repugnant? If you don't like him aestehtically, that's fine. But why try to puff it up into something more?

I think just 4, 6 and 7.

I think Espanto is my favorite Santito opponent. He's a guy I'm quite certain was a great wrestler, even if there's not enough evidence for him to make my list.

Sure, if it's not going to be enjoyable for you, don't vote. Doesn't mean you can't make points about the guys you like in the threads. Even if I'm apt to like Dundee better than Yoshino, that doesn't mean I'm uninterested in why a Yoshino fan thinks he's great. For me, there are comparable traits across eras and promotions--how good a guy's offense looks, how well he builds to moments in his matches, how he puts over his opponent's stuff, how he conveys his character through his work--but there's also no question I'm making value decisions about styles. I will probably always find Dragon Gate frustrating, through no particular fault of the individual workers.

I enjoyed the last two shows. Zack Sabre, Jr. vs. Timothy Thatcher from the Friday night show was very good. I don't think Sabre, Jr. has looked outright bad at any point this year but he has been a bit hit or miss. Some of his matches are "just there" (most of his wXw stuff from this year for example) but when he is on he might be my favorite indie guy to watch. He was on in this match and was just excellent. I was actually going to ask about Sabre, because the few hyped matches I've seen from him didn't really click for me, though I recall him at least having some interesting offense. What would you say he's best at?

But Onita produced some great classic brawls and was really smart about incorporating weapons and other crazy shit to create spectacle. Why should he be blamed if other people took that style and fucked it up? How's his style more "morally repugnant" than All Japan's, which utterly destroyed the bodies of its top workers?

There are already 250 or so nominees. How could they possibly all represent the consensus of some hive mind? I'd love it if there was more discussion of current indie wrestling on the site. It would give me ideas about what to seek out. Bill's enthusiasm toward Thatcher, for example, has him on my list of workers to investigate. I have fallen out of touch with the indie scene over the last five years as my favorites have moved to WWE and life obligations have piled up. But I'm always interested in great wrestling, no matter where it comes from. I think most of the regular posters here are as well, even if there's some skepticism when something like this year's G-1 gets the "best thing ever" hype.