Childs
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Just watched the Garvin/Flair cage match from 3/30/86. One of the best mixes of tough Flair and chickenshit Flair I've seen. Ronnie really pushed Ric to places few others did with his sheer physicality. I need to find a place for him on my list.
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This isn't helpful either, because it's a huge generalization and untrue. The GOAT nomination thread is already full of guys who made their bones on the recent indy scene. -
Okay great, let's go ten more names then ... Greg Valentine Tito Santana Terry Gordy Jim Brunzell Ron Garvin Paul Orndorff Ken Patera Dennis Condrey Manny Fernandez Adrian Adonis Let's keep going with this till you start feeling like one of us is reaching. This is going to end up being pointless, though, because of course if you're combing the territories, with more than 20 years of perspective, you're going to find more good workers. The other side is handicapped by the fact a lot of indie stars are still establishing what they are and how good they might be. Again, I'm not so much interested in arguing that the modern indies are as fertile as the territories. I just think it's wrong to imply they're infertile or not producing a good cross-section of workers.
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Not going to do one-for-one comparisons, because that seems like a waste, but: Daniel Bryan Cesaro CM Punk Dean Ambrose Seth Rollins AJ Styles Chris Hero Sami Zayn Luke Harper Samoa Joe I'm not saying that group is as good as the territory group you threw out. We frankly don't have the time or perspective to make that judgement. But it's a diverse bunch that could appeal to lots of different tastes. And most of the guys have been considered top-10 workers or at least been integral to MOTYCs. Given that you haven't watched much of these guys, you do sound like a huge crank just dismissing them.
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Such a weird spectacle, because I guess it did work on paper in terms of attracting buys, but it couldn't have been good in building any kind of loyalty to the product. Rodman was actually a pretty good heel--the only big pops came because of the heat he'd put on himself. But the crowd didn't give a shit about Malone, and he had nothing in his tool kit to make them care. They also didn't care much about DDP, though he sure tried. Check out that non-ovation when he took the hot tag from Mailman. Also, the match went on and on and on. The cardinal rule with these things is keep it simple and build to a few fun moments. They did that with the previous year's Rodman match. This one dragged on into a huge bore.
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I'll never forget this match, because it happened two days after I got married, and I watched it from our honeymoon suite in New Orleans, which I'm sure thrilled my wife. Anyway, it's bizarre how this whole thing came out of nowhere in the booking and yet popped as one of the company's last genuinely huge spectacles. Hogan-Goldberg I probably should've main evented Starcade, but for a few moments at least, WCW felt like the center of the wrestling world again. The match was what it needed to be, with Hogan doing his part. The fact this came six days before the Malone-Rodman debacle is hard to believe.
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Hall looked awful, and they worked an incredibly awkward match. But as Loss said, it hardly mattered to the overall spectacle.
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Weak shit compared to the NWO skewering of the Hoursemen, with Triple H doing an especially weak Rock (though the painted-on eyebrow was kind of funny). And that's not even touching on the racism, which was flying fairly thick in WWF at this time, between this and Val Venis' skits with Kaientai.
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That's the whole world though, right? A person, especially someone living outside a big city, had relatively few entertainment options, even in the '80s. Now, anyone anywhere can pick between thousands of options at the click of a button. So we're all more prone to expect the shit we choose to fit exactly what we want. If not, we move on quickly. I'm not at all sure this is good for us. But so it goes.
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His best Portland matches are against--shock--Buddy Rose from June 1982. They had another good one in 1984, and Borne was still tossing off fun brawls against the likes of the Grappler as late as 1988. I don't think they were enough to push him into top 100 contention, but he was a terrific brawler who delivered some of the best offense in the territory.
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I actually think a compare and contrast between the indies of the last 15 years and the territories is interesting subject matter that need not get into a nasty battle about the past or present being demonstrably better. I do think there were more avenues to make a decent living in the territory era, which probably kept more guys around to become experienced workers. But I also have to agree with Joe that the indies haven't exactly failed in producing top-shelf workers more recently.
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Davey was an elite talent who didn't have an elite career. My sense is he lacked the alpha personality. But physically, he could do anything. I'd rank him above Dynamite, though neither will make my 100.
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I'm pretty sure I copied that show from your collection. You should have it, unless you threw it out in a post-nuptial purge.
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I don't think it's right to say Jumbo didn't find himself as a mature worker until the end of the decade. He could be boring and/or inconsistent, but he also cranked out plenty of all-time great performances. This is where the semi-backlash against him has gone too far. I wouldn't fault anyone who prefers Choshu for the decade. I'd say Riki was the most important Japanese performer of that era, the straw that stirred the drink. But I'm still not sure he was great as often as Jumbo or that he peaked as high. It's an interesting argument.
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Breaking down the European WON HOF Candidates
Childs replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in Pro Wrestling
Would Grey be a stronger candidate than Saint if he were on the ballot? Or is he only a stronger worker? -
Thinnest top 100 of the decade? Definitely picked up in the second half of the year.
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I misinterpreted your original post; your reservation is a fair one and probably the same factor that will keep Liger out of my top 10 and maybe my top 20.
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ECW has become total fast forward material for me.
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It's hard to say anything new about this. It wasn't a good match, but the image of Foley coming back down the aisle with a deranged grin is unforgettable.Speaking of forgetting, I hadn't recalled that they raised the cage with Undertaker still on top of it, which had to be scary as shit given the roof had already showed signs of collapsing. And Foley still did a run-in and took a stunner in the main event! I will say this: WWF at least paid off Mick's commitment by treating this all as something special and insane.
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I can't wait for out '98 review podcast when Loss lays out his plan for how WWF could have made better use of Ken Shamrock.
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Masterpiece. Not my very favorite RINGS match because as well as the draw was executed, it wasn't the most satisfying finish. But their ability to wrestle this style for 30 minutes and keep it captivating speaks to tremendous physical conditioning and tremendous skill.
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I'm not sure I saw the innovation Loss and Chad referenced, but this was an exciting match. It didn't leave me with a real strong impression of any of the characters involved. As a showcase of four young wrestlers rolling out their best shit, however, it was aces.
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I liked the concept of this match but fell asleep the first two times I tried to watch. So maybe I really do want my Joshi to be go-go. Or maybe my constitution has simply been destroyed by parenting two small children and writing about Ray Rice. Anyway, I finally rallied to watch the whole thing and enjoyed it. I'm interested to see more Mariko in '99.
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I actually expected to like this more, but my attention drifted both times I tried to watch it. Perhaps I simply don't feel enough affinity for a lot of these wrestlers. And I didn't like seeing a semi-neutered Ikeda. I did enjoy the heel team overall, and the last few minutes were exciting, making excellent use of -- wait for it -- Hayabusa! Yes, my most hated wrestler of '98 hit a run of spectacular offense and then got the hell out of the way. Bravo, sir.