smkelly

If you think he is really that bad (not saying he isn't), just ban him then, man. I don't get this post. Only two people have banning powers here... myself and Loss. There is no way in hell I would ban RE. Ohh, Loss is #2 now? Looks like I need to make a bunch of killer comps! Lots of stuff ..........Ten periods, man, ten periods. You know, I was trying to help you out, even defend you, but sometimes, man, you're just beyond comprehension. Sometimes I think you're nothing more than a gimmick poster, which saddens me deeply, because you're not. You do realize professional wrestling is fake, right? I mean, it's not the UFC or a form of MMA, where they don't intentionally sell, as that would tell their opponent, "Hey, his leg is bothering him. Let me kick it a few dozen more times," or whatever a mixed martial-artist thinks when he or she notices a weakened body part or even if their opponent is fatigued. No, professional wrestling is fake because it had to be. It would be MMA if it weren't. Like Loss illustrated, "moves have consequences." It'd be like an MMA fighter getting punched in the face a dozen or so times, like real solid blows, and not showing swelling, bruising, or blood. Fans would notice, "Hey, something isn't right here!" Professional wrestling in its most basic form is...you guessed it, entertainment. It's like watching movies, man. You do realize (God, I hope you do) that the performances are staged, I.E. Christian Bale is pretending to be Batman who is pretending to beat the bejesus out of villains. The same applies to professional wrestling. If they don't act hurt, it must be real, but if it's real, than it's not professional wrestling. RE, do you see the conundrum your fantasy world has created? You simply cannot have the best of both worlds, man. Plenty of wrestling viewers have written volumes to the extent of how selling is one of the most important (if not the most important element in the performance) dynamics of professional wrestling. Wrestling without selling is like Hamlet without death. Without one, you cannot have the other. It is, really it is, a simple thing to understand. I haven't even talked about the importance of wrestling moves either...let alone, where they are done. Similarly, I haven't broached the topic of physiology either, which so happens to be a crucial ingredient in the dynamics of wrestling moves. It is understood that certain moves (think arm-drag or something similar in lightness) don't require Shakespearian level selling. I mean, if wrestlers started selling an arm-drag as though it were a burning hammer, then everything in wrestling would be considered a finishing move, which would cause wrestling to regress to two-hour long hugging fests. History has shown that particular style of "real" wrestling had a shelf life. Hence, the importance of wrestling moves, like the tombstone piledriver. I'll mix the "where moves take place" and physiology (and some physics) together. I'm sure you've seen compilation videos of various people and sometimes animals getting injured in various ways, like on America's Funniest Home Videos. The reason the videos get a reaction out of people is that they know what they are seeing fucking hurts. It's as simple as that, man. Now, when the person in the video pops up suddenly as though nothing happened, it decreases the significance of the video...making it an underwhelming shock video, thus, making it obsolete in terms of shock value. The same logic can be applied to professional wrestling. When a particularly dangerous move, like the tombstone piledriver in this instance, is no sold, it decreases the value of the move. Other things attribute to move devaluation too, but that's beside the point in this discussion. The devaluation is intensified when the move is done outside of the ring. It is clear why, but I'll explain for you. The ring is covered in canvas, and depending where in the world, has a layer of padding over wood. However, outside the ring, a thin pad covers concrete or dirt. What is a harder surface: wood or concrete? Similarly, what is harder: wood or packed dirt? I'd much rather take bumps on wood over concrete or packed dirt. Okay, now mixing that together, we have: a move that is dangerous (a man's head is being "driven" into the mat/floor, which could easily kill him, damage his brain/spinal column, or at the very least, paralyze him from the neck down) - and in this scenario, the move was being down on a concrete floor (I can't remember if the pad had been removed or not). If the pad had been removed, it is far worse in theory, as it should have affected the wrestler doing the move too. I mean, have you ever dropped to your knees on concrete and liked the sensation? Of course not (I pray you haven't). It hurts like divorce, man. (RE - Please...for our sake and your own, do not counter-post about the strength of their neck muscles.) That's why the no-selling tombstones on the floor is bad...and honestly, why your views on wrestling are bad for the business and for the rest of us. Fuck, I need a drink. EDIT: Someone needs to do an RE entry on Urban Dictionary. EDIT II: Man, this forum hates MS Word. Sean

I wouldn't mind being apologized to like that...

If you think he is really that bad (not saying he isn't), just ban him then, man.

Like Loss and smkelly said, nothing at all....which makes it so baffling that people like Dave and Res get so defensive about the matches when people point out that they don't hold up. If they could offer some legitimate defense of the quality of the matches today - even if I didn't necessarily agree with the conclusions - that would be fine. If they shrugged their shoulders and gave the Apple Jacks defense ("I like them because...because I just do!"), that'd be fine, too. Taking this approach, where they have to be objectively "right" and the other guy has to be objectively "wrong", where they have to "win" and the other guy has to "lose", because God forbid that anyone see your opinions on professional wrestling as being anything less than the wisdom of Solomon...that's a problem independently of whether or not the TM/DK matches are any good. The mentality exhibited thus far reminds me of being at college or professional sporting events. Like when Michigan faces Michigan State or Ohio State (especially football). People are just fucking relentless in the "my team is better than your team" meme that usually ends up historically bad for the people involved and the people in the immediate area. Or like someone bad mouthing the Red Sox in a southie bar (of all places, right?). The end result is always the same - the fans will defend their heroes and idols above and beyond what is logical, sane, and required, which, expecting anything less from them is just as illogical, insane, and a waste of time. Sean

While this match is certainly a MOTYC, the thing that I remember being detrimental, was the first ten minutes or so. They seemed...directionless, but they soon found their direction and delivered an epic match in a truly epic year for the epic promotion. This would likely make my top ten for the year, match wise.

He was the man indeed. I don't know who to blame more, Nash, Hogan, or Bischoff, or all of them equally. When was the Sting vs. DDP World title match? IIRC, it was on Nitro, and was an excellent TV match.

Like Loss said, nothing at all. It is the ways things are. Take movies for example. Nearly thirty years ago, John Carpenters' The Thing came out. At the time, it was probably one of the most over the top horror movies – violence, human psychology, aliens, blood, dismemberment, etc. The graphics were great for 1982 as well, but nothing near mind-blowing compared to today’s standards. The same applies to the violence, aliens, blood, dismemberment, and human psychology. Does it detract from The Thing? To some yes, but to others, not at all. Personally speaking, it is one of the better horror movies I have ever seen, as it actually scares me no matter how many times I watch it (like It and Cujo). This is what RE is seemingly having a hard time understanding. Obviously, he disagrees that the matches aren’t as good to others as they are to him. It’s a teeter-totter argument. RE isn’t going to suddenly admit defeat and pronounce his dislike for the series, while the rest of us aren’t going to announce suddenly that the series is the greatest thing since (insert great thing here). Nevertheless, I think being courteous to each other should remain intact, no matter how inane, naive, or stubborn someone gets. Out of personal curiosity, I wonder if the dislike of the TM/DK series is an American thing? I mean, do Japanese fans look at the series the same as we do, or do they look at the series as RE does? American culture is always looking for the next big thing while discarding yesterday’s modern miracles (think cell phones, computers, etc). Another thing I’m curious of – when exactly did the backlash start on the TM/DK series? Back in 2002 when I first got on the Internet and message boards, the series was still quite favored, with only a small amount of people who disagreed. I might be wrong in assuming this, but I’m guessing John will be the person to answer that question (no offense intended in any direction). Sean

TNA: Return of the WCW Killers

The question is whether there's enough to those matches beyond the athleticism that makes them hold up to standards that are used to judge wrestling from across time. Things like selling and transitions and execution aren't controversial standards.No, and that's why I don't like them as much anymore, because they don't hold up. I've seen better stuff from lesser workers over the years. If anything, I was pointing out the logical inconsistency that if a lot of people follow something, it doesn't always mean it was a good thing to follow. Like the, "If everyone is walking off a bridge, will you do it too?" rhetoric that parents and people in authority always quote. People like Michaels and HHH have said that they followed Flair. Benoit followed Dyno (most famous one anyway), which didn't turn out as well as HBK and HHH following Flair. I don't know who followed Sayama, but whoever did, was it as good as the Flair followers? (My original post was sarcastic in nature, but obviously I suck at Internet sarcasm )

I liked it better when it was called Step Brothers. WCW and TNA...Step Brothers 2!

Good piece, man. I remember one Jeff Hardy match in particular, it was against The Rock, and Hardy was clearing messed up during the match. IIRC, The Rock looked really pissed off about it. Cross quoting from Cage-Side Seats - - -

The thing that tells me it was a legit shoot is the reactions from Tenay and Taz. They were surprised, which tells me it is real. They're both terrible actors.

Going by Ray Bradbury's logic, imagine the landscape of professional wrestling had the first match and resulting series never taken place. While DK doesn't have as many sign-ups as Flair, he has quite a few for such a shitty worker. I don't know much about Japanese motivation, but I'm willing to bet many followed TM's foot-prints, again, not bad for such a shitty worker.

He's had over a dozen knee surgeries, maybe more depending on what you define as surgery. I can't fathom him having very many more years under his belt unless he goes the Undertaker route and works a dozen matches a year. Even then though, his days have been numbered for some time.

Yes and I would also say it is the best Kobashi singles match ever. I don't know if I can make a similar claim, as 1-20-97 against Misawa is epic in its own right. I might need to watch both matches back-to-back. Well said, man. No worries, I read the whole thing. TL-DR does not apply to you or your post.Since the discussion/argument for "good for its time" has reared up recently, does the powerbomb on the floor hold up? I think it does, as I wouldn't want to be powerbombed on the floor.

Best Stan Hansen match ever?

You know, I have wondered if that's where Bret got his idea of all the boys in the back having tears in their eyes after watching his matches.

If Rey does end up leaving the WWE, do you think he'll call it a career or go elsewhere (TNA, CMLL, AAA, other)?

The problem with newer material is the "head drop + no selling + risky spot + no selling + head drop + no selling in thirty seconds" mentality.