tomk

fuck a ring:

Well active wrestlers who weren't Eddie Gilbert. I always assumed that some of the coverage of Fuller had to do with a jealous Gilbert in his ear as well.

There were a bunch of Edge matches after that as well as the Federline, Big Show, Umaga series after that where Cena was matched up against guys who actually worked heel well and the majority of crowd got behind Cena. Cena has been amazingly resiliant in the face of shitty booking, but the shitty booking ontop of shitty booking has created accumulated damage. If the fed actually cared about getting behind Cena and building RAW around him...it's possible that they could still undue the damage. But for some reason that doesn't seem to be much of a priority.

Not having Rey induct El Mongol or the Torres bros seems like a really wasted opportunity. I kind of was hoping that Enrique Tores getting into WWE would put some fire behind the efforts to get him into WON HOF.

I think it's also worth mentioning that he wasn't booked particularly well during his05-07 peak. It wasn't just the post mania HBK feud that made Cena look like shit or the jobs in 08...but the build to Mania (which originally was supposed to be HHH getting his mania win back before he went down) didn't do Cena any favors. Then after HBK goes down , there is an Orton feud where the bookers have the difficulty of trying to figure out what to do since they have to "save Orton" for HBK's revenge comeback. The Lashley match; where Lashley started to earn his reputation as being back stage "uppity" since he asked to turn heel while the bookers wanted to keep it face v face, etc. In theory Cena should be the easiest guy in the world to book: Build up a heel then feed him a heel. They've rarely done that, which is ridiculous.

Not sure where the Ted Allen match was from. Big chunk of the tape was late nineties Southern indies where he'd work longer showcase matches against some guy from Georgia dressed as Ultimo or stuff along that line.

Except Miz doesn't work that way. We'd have to stretch the definition of ass kicked most of match and win via banana peel a ton to come to that conclusion. Was scroll era Savage really Honky Tonk Man? Was cast era Bob Orton really Honky Tonk Man? Was the first year of Orton as heel really Honky Tonk Man? Was Cena as heel with chain wrapped around fist finisher, Honky Tonk Man?

I don't see how or when Miz was booked as Honky Tonk Man. I mean if you're going to argue that Heath Slater is booked as the Vladimir Petrov in Wade Barret's Paul Jones army ...yeah maybe I could see that.

It is worth taking a couple extra moments to talk about Patrick Hernandez, who truly is a great forgotten worker. In 78/79 Hernandez was working a "video dance pop star" wrestling gimmick at a point where "video dance pop star" was becoming a real workrate centric gimmick. Hernandez couldn't perform to this new athletic standard. But he still had great ring psychology and realized that he could use a foreign object to compensate for the lack of athleticism. While he may not have directly inspired Onita, Mr Pogo does credit Hernandez' cane use as an inspiration. Born Born to be alive Despite his short peak as a wrestler, Hernandez' influence cannot be underestimated.

March 26,07- Michaels suprprises Cena with superkick April 1,07- Cena beats Michaels April 2,07- Michaels turns on Cena costing Cena match April 16,07-Michaels kicks wrong guy and Cena steals the win April 23,07-Michaels beats Cena April 29,07- Michaels knocks out Cena, but Cena lucks in to falling on top of Orton thus stealing the win Who does this series put over? 1) That's pretty much the standard for Michaels this decade. 2) This is part of the point I am making about Cena and an extension of keith's point. Cena had been booked weak during a big chunk of that 2005-2007 peak too.

I have volume 2 of the Best of Mike Jackson Video Tapes that I purchased from him at a show almost a decade ago. A bunch of cool stuff including a match with the recently passed Nightmare Ted Allen.

There have been interesting things written about the Fedor loss. The Observer piece isn't one of them. And while the football comparison is goofy, the thing is there is no sport he could use to make the analogy he wanted to make. I mean I guess rollerderby. But if he instead said "when Mike Tyson left the top promoter in the world (Don King) in 89, if Tyson had continued to perform on a high level would he still be considered a top heavyweight?" it would also be a horrible comparison. If Manny Paquaio leaves Top Rank promotions and ends up working for Duva promotions (or Gary Shaw or some Native American reservation based boxing promotion company) for next three years and is thus blackballed from working Arum promoted talent---Paquaio would still be considered top level competitor and whoever Arum pushed would be seen as a paper champion. If in 1922, the papers discovered that Babe Ruth was actually a mulatto and then could no longer compete in MLB and had to leave the Yankees for the Ohio Octaroons... MMA isn't like other sports. It isn't promoted the way other sports are promoted and there really are no analogies that make sense.

So I really liked the Cena v Khali/Umaga period. And yes in the world of “wellness” it is harder to do main event face v disposable monster. As without drugs it is harder to build a monster. Plus without blading it is harder to sell the power of a monster. Still it is the WWE, what they do best is Hogan v Heenan and stable of disposable heels or Austin v Vince and his stable of disposable heels. I mean we talked about transition from Mcmahon to Helmsley earlier, and it is possible that they currently have no one who knows how to do WWF style main event booking. But it is a formula with a good track record.

People keep on talking about this big money Cena heel run, but who is the "money" face they have to chase after him. Orton? A returning HHH? Both of those are pretty shitty options. Steve Yohe:

I don’t have the 96 set so I’m assuming that this BW v Dandy match is their 10/15/96 title match: http://www.luchawiki.com/index.php?title=N...avyweight_Title It is a title match, and that’s really important key to what takes place in the ring. Title matches in Mexico traditionally are worked as “clean” technical matches. A month or so ago I wrote about wrestling commissions and wrestling unions in Mexico. This is a vestige of that, as title matches were once governed by wrestling commissions and the commissions would not allow any “unclean” stuff in it. Wrestling commission demands that title match must be “legit” -----which leads to a “legit” “clean” “technical” title match formula of work. Dandy is a master of this style and really great at building drama in these “clean” “legit” exchanges. Lucha title match style is a style that will occasionally lead to ROH/Dragongate meaningless showing off of moves exchanges---Dandy doesn’t do that, he is a guy who is trying to win a match. Anytime you have Dandy opposite Emilio Charles Jr you want to watch it, Dandy v Angel Azteca for the title is worth watching and there is a Dandy v Casas title match from 92 that is pretty mind blowing. The Blue Panther v Atlantis 91, v Superastro 92,v El Maricahi in 94 are all also worked as title matches. There are I think two Casas/Santo v Bestia/Scorpio Jr tag title matches that are really worth watching and don’t get the hype they deserve since they are overshadowed by the big hair match. Stylistically your big heated hair match formula is always going to win over the title match formula. Which hints at the reason for the eventual weakening of the style. Like I said this is a vestigial carry over from an earlier time and it is a holdover formula that is weakening every year.

Russo always also positioned himself as the biggest pusher of the NJ3 and Samoa Joe/Aj Styles, etc. Konnan works the same "I'm the guy behind everything that works and will get a postive response from sheet writers" shtick too. Konan also has a similar love of tapes and wrestling history.

Shortly before the WWE failed to re-sign Rock, he had rejected their proposal of a showcase match with Michaels and had instead suggested working a showcase match with Rey in San Diego (Rey's worked hometown).

Worth pointing out that no one thinks of Black Warrior as a Flair or Steamboat level worker. He isn't Emilio Charles Jr, Bestia or Atlantis. He's had multiple singles title runs but is super inconsistent. This isn't all Dandy smoke and mirrors as BW stepped up to plate. Still this is pretty much Dandy v any game opponent in a title match..

The WWF was never a place that had “good heels”. They had good heel managers. As such Mr. Mcmahon was as over (if not more over ) and as effective (if not more effective) than Cornette in the early nineties, Heenan in the 80s or Grand Wizard before that. I think the Stephany pairing (while significant to keeping him on top ) wasn’t as important in terms of him catching on with the audience (ending crowd indifference) as the Cactus Jack series. You can criticize Vader for an over reliance on formula, you can criticize for mic work, there are lots of criticisms one can make about Vader. But unwillingness to adapt to different styles is ridiculous criticism. Vader is a guy who adapted his formula to Mexico, adapted to WCW, adapted to AJPW, adapted to CWA, adapted to UWFi, and adapted to WWF. I’d say he was better at adapting to the WWF than he was at adapting to UWFi. You can watch Vader work as a WWF style heel opposite Ahmed Johnson and compare it to other WWF heels ( Golddust, HHH, etc, opposite Ahmed). His Fatal Four Way WWF match is probably the best multiperson title match in the WWF, and pretty much a Vader one man WWF heeling showcase. The WWF in the nineties was not a fed that booked heels on top long term. You had a run on top and then you were cycled out. The disappointment with Vader in the WWF isn’t that he couldn’t adjust or that he wasn’t over. Disappointment was in the booking and that he was a guy who could have been having showcase main events anywhere and instead was cycled out and doing nothing.

I was more interested in when he came in as an agent to help “modernize/adjust” the WWE style, as when he came in from the start he was being talked about as a guy who was being groomed to either take Patterson or Ross’s slot.

Using the Online world of wrestling, which would be the blow-off?:

Also is a guy who you could legit see booking himself to break the streak.

We can get an accurate timeline for Jericho's programs in WWE at online world of wrestling: http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/prof...is-jericho.html From when he came in to first programs with HHH: A couple quick points. -I too am interested in what Jericho has to say about the Curtis Hughes period. -Outisde of Hughes he really doesn't get any programs with true heavys untill Godfather -I somewhat rolled my eyes at Jerome's "immediate threat to HHH" point, but looking at the dates that feels more than accurate. HHH and Chyna had feuded for about a month in 99 and they ended up back together...they turned Chyna face in Sep 00, but she still was accompanying heel HHH from Sep-Oct. Jericho shows up in August, while HHH was still a guy who the fed didn't have faith in pushing as a solo heel act without Chyna till close to the end of October. The Rumble Streetfight with Foley that made HHH into a made man wasn't till January of 00. -Jericho isn't in a program with HHH untill 3 months after the NJ 3+ different one show up. -I'd be curious to know exact date that Laurinitis shows up to "update/modernize" the WWE style.

I am not Randazzo and hardly ever listen to wrestling shoots, but I'm pretty sure this is at least the fourth time I've heard someone tell that story (with different people in the Jericho and Rock roles) to illustrate "yeah at that point I (or some other hardluck putz) couldn't do anything right". It's a great story, I'd use it too. I don't know if Shamrock is really a true heavyweight and worked a poor man's version of the style that Jericho was able to work oppsite Booker T or Duncum Jr. Neither Xpac, Roaddog or D-Lo are anything near true heavys (and all guys who've been trained in a style Jericho would have underrstood). Doesn't feel like this is a statement about his opponents, so much as a WWF house style. This does add a new insight to the Kurt Angle/Horshu complaint that Eddie sold to much and wouldn't pop up fast enough (although at the time Horshu/Angle were the heels).

1) This is fascinating 2) When did the WWF hire Boni Blackstone and what did she do there?