tomk

This is of course super easy to do since IC title is mostly a heel belt during this period. 1979- August 1979- Patterson “wins” title in tourney in Rio 5 matches with Patterson as IC champ, he is managed by Grand Wizard during this period First of which is 1980 Wizard turns Patterson’s contract over to Albano which pisses Patterson off and turns Patterson face. Patterson has three matches with IC title as face in MSG. One match opposite Albano. A tag match opposite a team where one opponent managed by Albano and other managed by Wizard. The third match is a title loss opposite the Grand Wizard managed Patera.Wizard managed Patera has five matches with IC title before losing to Morales. Face Pedro Morales has one IC title defense opposite the Blassie managed Hangman. 1981 Face IC champ, Pedro Morales has two matches opposite Albano managed heels. He has one match opposite a Blassie managed heel. And 2 matches opposite a Grand Wizard managed heel. Grand Wizard managed Don Muraco wins the title in Philly on June 20, and they have four MSG matches with belt with Morales winning belt back in November of 81 (last MSG of 81). 1982 Face holds the title for entire year. Morales has title for five singles matches against Albano managed heels (Albano is now managing Muraco), and is in one six man match where Albano manages two thirds of heel team. Morales has title during one match against a Blassie managed heel. Morales has title during five singles matches against a Wizard managed heel, and is in a six man where one third of the heel team is managed by the Grand Wizard. 1983 Albano managed Don Muraco wins title holds till Feb,84.

Bruno opponents in MSG post loosing the title to Graham is alot easier than I thought it would be. Bruno really works MSG a lot less than I had thought during this period. 1977 Bruno has two rematches with Graham who is managed by Grand Wizard. One match with Patera when he was managed by Albano. One match with George Steele, and I don't know who was managing Steele in 77. Steele is a huge frustration as he is a guy who was managed by all three wisemen and I don't know which guy was doing it when. 1978 Another Graham match managed by Wizard. 1979 Two matches v. old rival Koloff managed by Albano. One match opposite Volkoff managed by Blassie One match opposite Valentine managed by Grand Wizard 1980 Two matches opposite Zbysco ( no manager). One match opposite Slaughter (managed by Grand Wizard). Bruno won't appear at MSG again till 84 when he accompanies son.

The awesome Lee Benaka interview with a young Evad Sullivan: http://www.deathvalleydriver.com/Benaka/dannenhauser.html

More pin the wisemen on their charges for the Backlund era. I'm making lots of guesses so if I've fucked up, tell me. I don't think Meltzer believes that Backlund is the draw during this period. Wizard still manages Graham. Maybe I should also look at the Bruno opponents. Zbysco didn't have manager. I'm pretty sure Blassie is managing Khan during the Andre feud and Sheik during the Slaughter one. Not sure. My memory is that Patterson managed by heel Wizard turns face when contract sold to Albano, then had matches with Albano but didn't really face any Albano charges. Maybe should go through who managed heels in IC matches for this period too. But for symmetry will stick with matches with World Title holder. 1978 Minimum of three matches where heel managed by Wizard. Minimum of two where heel managed by Albano. I think there are a minimum of two where heel managed by Blassie. Is Blassie still with Arion at this point? Is Blassie already managing Steele? Is Patera still with Albano or is he with Wizard? I put Blassie with Maivia but don’t know if he was already managing Maivia for first Backlund match. 1979 Wizard manages heel in minimum of 6 of these matches. Blassie maanges heel in two and misses a third. Albano manages heel in minimum of 2 (one of which is as sub for absent Blassie). I think Duncum had moved from Wizard to Albano by this point but am not sure. 1980 Wizard manages heel in 4 matches Albano manages heel in 2 Blassie in 1 Backlund also faces Race and Zbysco 1981 Wizard manages heel in minimum of 4 matches. Blassie in minimum of 3. Don't know about Albano? Who is managing Steele at this point? Who is managing Mosca? 1982 Albano manages heel in minimum of 3 matches Wizard manages heel in minimum of 5 Blassie in minimum of 1 Is Blassie managing both halves of East West Connection? Who manages Adonis? 1983 Albano manages heels in minimum of 2 matches Blassie manages heel in minimum of 3 matches Grand Wizard manages heel in minimum of 2. I’m positive no one was managing masked Superstar in first match after Wizard’s passing. Not sure about second Who managed Steele in 83?

Steve Yohe: Anyone know what Tanahashi, Yohe has seen? Nagata, Akiyama, Kojima, and Takayama all quickly fell off with under 10 %. Has Ohtani ever been a cadndidate? I don't think Tenzan, or Fujita have ever been or (really ever should be) candidates. Sasaki isn't on and I don't think people think of him as a no brainer. And honestly I would have no problem with none of those guys making it in HOF. That said it's really odd to me that Tanahashi is considered a no brainer when I'm not sure if he has achieved as much as any of the guys from the generation of underachievers before him.

I have only been to Orlando once. My jokes weren't about there being a large Korean community in Orlando but rather Orlando being a place with a big entertainment tourism economy that attracts multiethnic "enhanced" "talent" from accross the state (and probably country). I didn't go to too many attractions while there but I think there were several Korean American women working at the Holy Land Experience (preposterous theme park built on idea of recreating Biblical Israel in Orlando), bunch advertised on that strip that seems to be mostly strip and Kiwanis clubs, and a bunch working in various hostess roles at convention center.

Hey Tim who would you say are the good undercard rudo bases in AAA right now. I haven't watched any AAA since mid August but one of the more frustrating things was outside of maybe Chris Stone and Mocho Cota Jr, I got the sense that most of the Militia would be alot better off as technicos. I mean the other guys have signature goofball heel bumps but they weren't particularly good at eating the technicos moves.

I thought he said the Kox one was coming in Thanksgiving issue.

This has a bunch of big bumps a lot of neat teases of dangerous bumps worked like really cool Battle Royal style near falls which are crazy since falling off a tuck going 15 mph is far more dangerous than falling to floor from ring. I don't know why some CZW garbage fed or the Juggalos haven't tried to recreate this stip. I imagine most garbage feds have at least one superfan or worker with a truckers license and probably at least one or two who own a school bus or party bus to drive along side. As the one big problem with this (like the New Japan empty arena cage match earlier this decade) is that it has lots of crowd heat spots with a lack of live audience response.

Chavo has eaten Evan Bourne's offense really well, I have seen Chavo at house show eat Primo's offense really well. I thought Shannon Moore did a yeoman's job with broken down Ultimo. Enhancement talent doing a great job of eating a wrestler's offense doesn't mean as much as having main or semi-main eventers who can/will do a good job of putting over a wrestler's offense. How would you do cruiserweight division in current "wellness" WWE with Vince's recent kick of listing wrestler's real weights? 200 lbs and below would have Hunico as heavyweight non-cruiser. The traditional pro-wrestling 105 kg and below (what's the origin of this?) would leave a WWE heavyweight division of 24 guys( Taker, Big Show, Sheamus, Kane, Jimmy Uso, Wade Barett, Johnny Curtis, Randy Orton, Mark Henry, Steven Regal, Great Khali, Alberto del Rio, Alex Riley, Brodus Clay, Drew Mcintyre, Santino Morella, Skip Sheffield, Mason Ryan, Kevin Nash, JTG, John Cena, Jack Swagger, Golddust and Ezekial Jackson). Before the Tajiri feud, when Hurricane and Rosey were jobbing with Ultimo,Rey, and Kidman (?) v Tajiri and partners run above them---they were selling out of those plastic Hurricane half masks for $30 a pop. The WWE merch table is an amazing thing.

I'm not really sure how to respond. Primo was also brought up early ( and later the Carlito turn on him was explained as being) specifically because Rey was breaking down and they felt they needed a new Hispanic draw that could move merchandise. And yet Primo was never really booked in a way that would draw or move merchandise. The point is right now they are doing a nice job of protecting Mistico. Shown a commitment to him ("made attempt to make him fit in effecively"], more of a commitment to booking him carefully than they ever have shown for Rey. In the Punk promo thread Loss says about Cena: The WWE does a lousy job of protecting, building hot angles around, and promoting it's biggest star. Rey and Cena are guys who have drawn and sold merch but they haven't had a lot of points where they were booked well to draw or sell merch. I expect WWE signings to have to overcome counterproductive booking. I don't think Mistico is a guy who is equiped to do that. He isn't a guy who does what the WWE expects out of its workers, he doesn't do the things that allow Rey to connect with the audience and overcome the bookings. When someone says "makes sense on paper" I assume they mean is a good fit and can work within the system, work for that audience, without the fed having to make major changes to accomodate or the audience being retrained to understand. In mid 95 the writing was pretty much on the wall for Yokozuna, he was breaking down and Camp Cornette needed a big heavyweight replacement. In 95, Taue was having a pretty great year working as a big credible Japanese heavyweight who would still sell well opposite smaller opponents. If someone walked up to you at the summer of 95 and said that the WWF is signing Taue as they phase out Yokozuna, would you say "that makes sense on paper". It might have been awesome, but I don't think people would have been quick to say "looks good" or "makes sense" on "paper". And that's kind of an unfair analogy as I could see someone arguing that Taue works more like Yokozuna than Mistico works like Rey.

Didn't Ronnie Garvin have an AWA title when he left for WWF.

Is the reality Tv stuff being done in house or are they contracting experienced reality Tv production companies to do them?

Thanks a bunch Kris, I really couldn't find enough info on 70-73 period. So adding Kris's stuff 1970 8 MSG's with Albano managing heel in match with champ 6/8 1971 Albano manages heel in at minimum 8/10 matches with champ 1972 Albano manages heel in at minimum 7/12 1973 Albano manages heel in at minimum 3/11 Grand Wizard manages heel in at minimum 5/11 1974 Albano manages heel in 2/11 Blassie manages heel in 3/11 Wizard manages heel in 5/11 1975 Blassie manages heel in 5/12 Albano manages heel in 7/12 1976 Albano manages heel in 1.5/12 Blassie manages heel in 3/12 Wizard manages heel in 6.5/12 1977 Blassie manages heel in 2/13 Albano manages heel in 3/13 Wizard manages heel in 8/13 This is less intersting to me now than it was a year ago. Last year Meltzer was arguing that Albano "carried the heel side of the WWWF/WWF" for over a decade. That seemed like a ridiculous claim. "One of the lynchpins" feels like a lesser claim. Jiimy Hart "carried" the heel side in Memphis, Don Bass was one of the lynchpins. Gereal Skandor Akbar carried the heel side in midsouth for almost a decade, Grizzly Smith was one of the lynchpins. Also saw Cyndi Lauper live last year and she sang "Goonies R good enough" so I have positive vibes from that. Still since Albano's a lynchpin from 70-85, John and Kris, do you think you can do the Backlund era?

I had too many windows open and got confused so 1976 12 MSGs listed Grand Wizard manages heels in six singles matches with world champ and splits managerial duty with Albano for one tag match Blassie manages heels in three singles matches with world champ ( well he should've except the time Putski had to sit in for world champ) Albano manages heels in one singles match with world champ and splits managerial duty with Grand Wizard for one tag match with world champ 1977 13 MSGs Billy Graham becomes champ Albano manages heels in 3 singles matches with world champ Blassie manages heel in 2 singles matches with world champ Wizard manages heel in 8 singles matches with world champion 1978 I only asked about 78 till Backlund win So that's three shows, of course that's all Grand Wizard

Yeah I went around looking for help on that and didn't get much outside of bert on classics. Assuming the information he provided was correct from 1970 to Backlund winning title results taken from Cawthorne's site. Or whatever the quote is. I will color the shows where I don't know who managed in red. For 1970, we have 8 MSGs listed from this period. Sammartino wrestles in singles matches in 7 of them. We know that Albano started managing with Crusher Verdu. Of those shows we only know that Albano managed two. I don't know who was managing before. Bobby Shane? I really know little about 70s WWWF, outside what I was told by Philly kitchen staff I used to work with. We would go to ECW shows together, where they'd tell me how much Tommy Dreamer was real like Bruno. 1970 Albano manages minimum of two singles challenges to world title 1971. We Have 10 MSGs from 71. Koloff beats Sammartino. Morales Beats Koloff. Uncertain about who manages on 3 shows Albano manages heels in at minimum 6 singles matches with World champ, one tag match with world champ. 1972 12 MSGs listed. I have very little info on 1972. Albano manages heel in at least three singles matches with world champ. 1973 Stasiak beats Morales, Sammartino beats Stasiak. The Grand Wizard shows up, again we have too little information 11 MSG's listed Grand Wizard manages heels in singles matches with world champ at minimum 5 times Don't know anything about Albano during this year 1974 We have 11 MSG's listed The Grand Wizard manages the heel in singles matches with world champion 5 times Blassie manages heel in singles matches with world champion 2 times Albano manages heels in 0 known singles matches with world champ. Albano manages heel tag team in match with world champ 2 times. I assume team of Blassie and Volkoff didn't have a manager but I'm not going to add it to Blassies total. 1975 We have 12 MSGs listed The Wizard is nowhere to be seen in the world title picture Blassie manages heels in 5 singles matches with world champ Albano manages heels in 5 singles matches with world champ, manages heels in 1 tag match with world champ and is in 1 handicap match with world champ

Really? Self esteem? Self esteem in the face of anything in particular? In the face of body issues? homophobia? racism? poverty?Just self esteem? That's awesome. Still instead of coming out and saying "encouraging self esteem is very important and I'm really proud to do that" she just pats herself on the back for "doing something that is right". Like I said wrestling promoter should borrow from this and throw a memorial show without announcing who died.

He's a guy who works from above. I'm not saying he doesn't eat offense, everyone eats offense. Goldberg eats offense. But he still works from above. On some level there are two intersting things that happen in the bad Chavo match: (1)Chavo sandbags Mistico on Mistico's finisher ( which is a spot Rey has been using as a near fall move for awhile) (2) Mistico is at a loss at what to do during the section of match where Mistico eats punches and the audience yells "Chavo Sucks". Thats what he critically needs to learn. I assume he is professional and dedicated and will figure that out but that's the thing he needs to learn. He was originally thrown out with no thought and no sense of who he is. I said they threw him out there played the role they formerly had Killings play: guy who was nothing but highspots strung together. That's not what Mistico is, but it's not like that was a role that played to Killings strengths or that he was especially comfortable with. So it's not like throwing a guy out there and telling him to do something that isn't what he does is somehow unusual. What is unusual is that they acknowledged that there was a problem ( I'm not sure if they have any understanding of what the problem is) , and they committed their booking to trying to work around the problem. Mistico is a HHH project and it's pretty clear that they are willing to go all in on that project in a way that they normally don't. Looking at bringing in Averno really shows the level of commitment. Making an attempt to help someone fit in effectively is not something they ever do. My original point was I didn't have a problem with the booking but the signing wasn't something that looked "smart on paper". Brining in Averno as guy who eats Mistico's offense really well makes sense on some level. But on the other hand why should the WWE audience care about anyones ability to beat Averno? The audience chants "Chavo sucks" and gives heat to whoever Chavo was punching. How are they going to establish Averno enough that the audience will yell "Averno sucks"? Like I said I need to do a full Mistico and EMLL 21st Century booking thread. Reducing Averno to being the guy who makes Mistico's stuff look best is really simplistic. The thing that people forget about Averno is that he held trios belt with Satanico, partnered with Satanico in multiple challenges to tag title holders Ultimo Guerrero/Rey Bucanero,and I think he had a title match opposite Santo all before Mistico was debuted (title match with Santo may have been post Mistico debut). I don't know if he won the tag belts before he first worked Mistico or not. He wasn't Satanico, wan't Santo. He wasn't a "consecrated" main eventer. Not a veteran so respected that the crowd will turn on a rookie for beating or getting too much offense on him. But he was a guy who was high enough on the card that dominating him on offense meant something. I'm doing a lousy job explaining this; he was an established heel but not someone the audience was emotionally invested in (Kane but not Taker). Who the fuck is Averno to your WWE audience? Why does him eating your offense spectacularly mean anything to them?

I've been fucking that up for over twenty years. It's part of me being an awful writer fixated on closet homophones.

Yeah that seems accurate for those two.

Ooh I remember watching this. Pretty dull show although I don't quite see the wrestling connection being made here. The phonograph record was invented in the 1870s. It's been over a hundred years since pop music went from being something that you bought sheet music to and sat around the living room piano singing with family and friends and turned into something that was performed by "profesional entertainers". And I'm enough of a wrestling fan to think Adele's black tights and black boots gimmick is as much of a gimmick as Nikki Minaj's Max Moon costume. That said I remember thinking that Katy Perry's acceptance speech for Fireworks was one of the most amazing carny things. http://www.mtv.com/videos/misc/685468/katy...ml#id%3d1668980 She somehow pats herself on the back for having the courage to take the right stand on an important issue in the song without being brave enough to say what that issue is. I'm not doing it justice but it is awesome. "Self congratulating for taking a stand whithout saying what that stand is"---is I think a pretty standard pop music trick and on some level more carny than even a wrestling memorial show. It is a carny move that I think wrestling promoters should study and could learn from.

I had forgoten about the Cena v Rey match which was well regarded too. Anyways I was posting on the DVDVR and did some counting on my fingers which I assume I made a bunch of math mistakes and failed to carry numbers etc.Someone fix my math. Even if you think there is money in the chase Dusty chased Flair. He didn't chase Flair beat him, then loose to the Spoiler chase him, eventually beat him only to then loose his first defense to the Spoiler, chase him and then beat him to only loose to the Bobby Jaggers, chase him beat him and then not be able to succesfully defend opposite Buddy Wolf, etc. Over on the figurefour board Meltzer has been arguing lately that Austin's real big push only started in 98 when he hooked up opposite Tyson. I think that's a nutty point, but if you were to accept it, then Cena has never had that type of moment. There has been no point where the fed has organized itself around being anchored by Cena the way they did around Austin in 98. When HHH was the heel anchor of RAW, there was a structure in place where you could build up faces on Smackdown and then ship them to RAW where he would eat them up and spit them back over to Smackdown. There isn't any real structure in place to build up heels so that they can be fed to Cena. One of my favorite stories from Cenas longest title run, was that Lashley wanted to turn heel to work the Cena match but that the bookers nixed it and he got a bad reputation as uppity guy who wanted changes as a result of that request. The fed was more interested in protecting their investment in the face Lashley build than they were in giving their top face a heel opponent. The WWE has convinced itself and tells their employees that it is that it is the brand name and not the wrestlers who are the draw. Cena is pretty clearly the top star in the fed, but the fed has no interest in booking around protecting their #1 star. The promotion is convinced that the name "Summerslam" is the draw and you book around that instead of booking around building up the wrestlers actually headlining it. Despite that, wether the WWE likes it or not, Cena is still pretty clearly their #1 star, guy who moves the needle and has delivered in his PPV matches.

Wow. Looks like we need to start the push for Groups again as a way to get the Dynamite Brothers in. BTW, since Cien Caras (and the Dynamite Brothers) were clearly a big draws, what would keep Cien out of the HOF? Could it be... Bringing over from wrestlingclassics So according to Meltzer, Cien wasn't as big of a draw as we perceive him to be. Meltzer didn't say exactly how he came to that conclusion. I asked Mat if he could provide the list of matches which make up the lucha totals, and he hasn't been able to do that yet.

I am pleased that Atlantis gets that much support among active wrestlers, also amused that Edge is top ten candidate amongst retired wrestlers but his actual contemporaries don't buy that. And in all the talk about Buddy Rose and Lesnar....what is the case for Dominic Denucci? For North East Italian, has Illio Dipaolo ever been on the ballot? For tag partner of giant draw, has Miguel Perez?

Tom, Excuse my ignorance but as no one is just a giant fucking draw magically, what elements do you think made Mistico a giant fucking draw? There is alot that went into Mistico's draw. Like I said given how commited the WWE is to the Sin Cara project, he's a guy who probably deserves a full thread of his own. But at most basic level there is him and the booking. Him: He's a charismatic guy who hits his stuff cleanly and he worked as a guy from above in a real way that would appeal to Resident Evil in the Goldberg/Tiger Mask sense "matches from an overall kayfabe sense, the construction in them never fails to give off the impression that his opponents have trouble with him and he is the better wrestler. And truly, it can not be any other way for the most part because he was on such an obvioulsy higher level. Everything here is all important in building up the perception he gives to the audience...invincibility ". He pulls that off well. Booking: The Resident Evil "Tigermask/Goldberg" gimmick also needs good booking. CMLL because they don't do lots of big angles and does things slowly, never gets the credit they deserve for how good their booking is and their skills at moving guys up and down card. They understood exactly how to build Mistico up, line up the right opponents and protect his gimmick.