tomk

I'm not dvocating Moolah's inclusion. I mean it's one thing to put someone into the HOF for sleeping with a Mcmahon or a Lutheroth. Another to put them in for sleeping with Billy White Wolf. That said. Not going to argue the later but is there any footage of her from 40's-50's or do all we have is the past prime to way past prime stuff to way way past prime stuff.

I don't keep old observers in any organized fashion but I'm pretty sure that Angle got almost 100% of the worker/biz insider vote with the implication being that he would have gotten in even without any of the reporter/historian votes.

I think part of Rey's candidacy has to be built on him not opening the door. He's a 5-4 guy who is the biggest ratings draw that the WWE has and it forced their hand. They don't want to be pushing anyone under 6". They had to. Less inerested in his influence. More interested in his unique singularity.

I think your international guys need a strong US run to get voted in. When doing the voting does anyone know wether Vader was classed with needing 60% of US votes or 60% of Japanese votes? If Steve Williams had the run on top of WCW instead of Vader...my bet is Williams would be a shoo in. I liked him a bunch but don't think Ultimo's run in WCW really meant a ton....but I can't see him getting voted in without it.

Well I think pretty obvious that RnR v Heavenly bodies from WWF smokes Steiners v Heavenly Bodies from WWF. But I doubt you're arguing that WWF Steiners was prime Steiners. And I assume Resident Evil would tell you that Steiners v Heavenly Bodies was better because it was worked like proto-Smackdown Six with lots of meaningless moves to get pops. But assuming we're talking WCW Steiner 89-91 as prime: I remember watching RNR v Doom shortly after watching a ton of Brainbusters in WWF and being struck by how much better the RNR v Doom was then any Brainbuster match. I liked RnR v Doom a bunch but would be uncomfortable pimping it as in the top twenty tag matches in WCW that year. I haven't watched Steiners v Doom as recently as I watched RnR v Doom. Watching lots of Mid-South has made me want to watch as much Butch Reed as I can get my hands on so I should start tracking down Doom matches. But are you arguing RocknRoll v Doom>Steiners v Doom.

This may be the wrong folder to write this in. If it is i'm sorry, move to appropriate place. I don't see a shills/requests folder. Ok so I was reading about this match in a lucha mag, where it was discussed as though the idea behind it was similar to the deal with the Dragons Gate guys in ROH, hot Japanese feud being brought into foreign land. According to the lucha article, audience was angry because they thought "Hey this is supposed to be the top matchup in Japan, why is this guy mailing it in thus disrespecting the Mexican audience"... So I think I've seen other matches from this show, but can't find the Inoki v Singh 2/3 falls match from Mexico. Someone must have it. I want to see it. Where do I find it?

While we are discussing Benoit and this was originally WON award winners thread... Who gets best technical? I doubt anyone will voting Benoit. Danielson was out most of the year, and am behind enough on ROH that don't know what he's done high end since return. Combined PPVs has meant Finlay really hasn't gotten a PPV showcase match. Little in the way of mat work from either EMLL or AAA in 2007. Does anyone get Muga tapes? I loved Sano v Misawa, but I think I was only American who felt that way. Is Urijah Faber winning it?

Don't want to put words in anyones mouth here. but it feels like people are arguing completely different things. Jingus was inside the biz. Orton's problems create a bad backstage atmosphere. Benoit's problems help to maintain backstage cohesion. Orton's problems suggest that you can do whatever you want and get away with it. Benoit's suggest that if you don't tow the line someone will tie you up and choke you. From the point of view of the biz, the first is the more problematic.

As a caveat to this I should point out that whenever you read an interview with Dr. Wagner Jr in the 90s he always says american worker he most wanted to have a match with was Rick Steiner. Always made me laugh.

Wasn't Mitchell part of the Charlotte rudo peanut gallery? There is a rudo bias among your smark hardcores. Him voting for MX over RnR isn't surprising. I assume him voting for Steiners has more to do with having the most superficial understanding of what they meant internationally.

He’s a troll. All comments are bull shit. Flair was a guy who was known to put over his opponents. HHH is known as guy who builds matches around exposing them. Booker was far more over before the series with HHH then he was after it. Took a while a brand change, several gimmick changes, a couple heel –face-heel turns and the introduction of a valet before Booker recovered from that series. HHH means far more for being a Rock rival then Rock gained from being a HHH rival. Benjamin was a meaningless series where HHH did nothing to make it mean any more than the TAKA match. Steiner was far more over before the HHH series then he was after it. The only guy who inarguably got over from working HHH was Batista. Batista’s program was completely different than any other HHH one. Batista worked Triple Threat guy who turns face on Shame Douglas. He didn’t have to work in ring programs opposite HHH on way to title challenge. Batista outsmarted and outwrestled HHH in three singles matches. Never had to work tag programs or any other program opposite HHH. Batista then was immediately moved to Smackdown where he again wouldn’t need to work opposite HHH. The guy who got over from working HHH is the guy who didn’t have to work in ring programs opposite him. HHH isn’t Flair. Working programs opposite Helmsley doesn’t elevate people. But JBigRed57 knows this and is just bullshitting to be a troll. As everything he says is really obvious b.s. The Raw match is the match where HBK got his win back. Match worked with Cena in control and HBK as underdog getting in desperation superkick for win. I guess in Bizzaro world, working as underdog is considered working heel and a good way to get crowd behind guy working “dominant” role. Of course this example of HBK “trying to get crowd behind Cena” by working underdog was just a “non-title throwaway raw match” which no one cares about. Spearing Cena behind his back in lead up to Cena v Lashley is also an example of Lashley working heel in the match? Lashley earned a bad backstage rap for complaining and wanting to turn heel. Lashley knew he was in a face vs. face program and didn’t think it helped anyone. He wanted to try working heel. He never did. You can't make an argument that spearing Cena behind his back in pre match setup is example of working heel in the actual match. You might be able to argue that it's a heel move in setup. But even there I dont buy it. I guess when HBK superkicked Goldberg in lead to Goldberg v HHH that was HBK turning heel. I guess when HBK superkicked Kane behind his back on lead up to Kane v HHH that was HBK turning heel. I guess when HBK superkicked Booker in build up to Booker v HHH that was HBK turning heel. I guess when HBK superkicked Benoit in build to Benoit v HHH program that was HBK turning heel. Cheap shotting a fellow face isn’t a heel turn. Eddy was booed for refusing to hit his friend Batista with a chair. The days of Tugboat turning on Hogan are long over. Two faces who will do anything for belt (including hitting each other behind back) has been a face booking for almost a decade in the WWF. So he'd still be a marketing machine even though not to people who he currently markets to??? Does that make any sense? Big Red is a troll.

Ok so you're a troll. I get it. Moving on.

Figured todays New York Times article on NFL's response to media's "sensationalistic/uinscientific" coverage of multiple concussions should be posted here. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/sports/f...amp;oref=slogin

Why do you believe that? Evidence of this would be? Examples of Michaels and Lashley trying to work suttle heel would be? Except again he doesn't win match after match after match. Go to Obsessed with wrestling. Take a look at his won loss record during title run vis a vis HBK and HHH's from same period. Cena isn't being booked is invincible. Rock was being booed as face, not drawing as face, not selling merchandise as face, etc. Cena is getting cheers as face, drawing as a face, selling merchandise as a face. Is there any reason to believe that the women and children who cheer him on, who he draws, who he sells merchandise to will continue to be drawn by Cena as a heel? So Cena has opened up that market and he is booed by women hating wrestling fans who are upset that icky girls are now participating in what they thought was a form of entertainment that was constructed exclusively for them. Yes you could have Cena start stealing the old Dudley gimmick and put women through tables and suddenly he'd get cheers from the guys who booed him before. But why alienate the new market they openend up? It was incredibly difficult to build credible secondary heels when HHH was burying them. Incredibly difficult to build credible faces when HHH was plowing through them. One of the things that is noticeable about Cena's career is that like Flair people who work a program opposite Cena are more over at the end of the program then they were at the begininning. Even with Cena winning those programs. Edge was more over (more credible) after the program with Cena than he was at the beginning,Umaga was more over (more credible) after program, Khali more over after program, etc.

Erm, Ultimo had successful runs in Mexico and America, while Sasuke didn't. How are you measuring success? But ok then, Great Kabuki. Ultimo was midcard attraction in an indy that drew because it was main evented by Tenryu. And had a fine mid card run in US, and married a Lutheroth relative and could be plugged into a trio anywhere on the card in Mexico. Kabuki main evented in Mexico, US and a major Japanese wrestling promotion. I think its a HUGE mistake to do bar setting. If HHH in then why not Sasaki or Moolah, if Ultimo is in then why not Fujiwara or Sano, if Heyman than why not Don Owen or Jack Pfefer, if HBK then why not Rude or Rodney Anoia, if Angle then why not Tamon Honda or Jericho, etc. There are lots of bad candidates who got in in last couple years. The bar has been set way too low. Really if criteria is is___________ candidate as good as mediocre HOF inductee then there is no reason to keep out Ole Anderson, Gene Anderson, Arn Anderson, Lars or CW. I realize I'm not a voter and don't think anyone here is either, but for purpose of disccusion I think bar should be set higher than"as good as shitty inductee who has no buisness in there in the first place".

The Karl Gotch issue is really really great. Filled with so much stuff, that I've found myself enjoying rereading it a couple times on subway and pickng up on new stuff. -What it takes to create status of "God" in Japan---worth also reading Wall Street Journal article from yesterday http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1187042176...=hpp_us_pageone -Really both the history of Japanese wrestling and US wrestling. The Vince Sr. stuff, the team with Goulet, etc all fascinating. Rikidozan's approach to booking foreign talent. The formation of New Japan and AJ. I need to see full match lists from early New Japan filled with Gulas undercarders. -Holy shit Abe Jacobs has been wrestling forever. I think he was feuding with George South two years ago. -And I guess on some level the most interesting thing to me is Meltzer really doing nice job explaining the difference between Japanese culture and American culture in terms of relationship between pro-wrestling and MMA. You read that issue and Meltzer actually seems to understand that while their is a link between pro-wrestling and MMA in Japan that the same link is non-existant in the U.S. If you've read the history of Meltzer defending/arguing that UFC is pro-wrestling he always talks about how MMA is covered as prowrestling in GONG polls etc. Reading article it's clear that Meltzer knows that pro-wrestling linked with MMA is a Japan only phenomena. Meltzer can write very clearly about UFC not coming out of the same tradition. And yet he won't ever act on that knowledge.

Why is it folks keep forgetting Deuce/Domino when listing most useless WWE workers? There was the long OJ v Boogeyman from the 3/4/06 New Zealand show, where Boogey looked far more trained than the lesser of the D and D team. Boogey often looked to be the more useful guy in his team with Kane versus Regal/Taylor.

Lure of exposure? Or that WWE is known to pay decently for an easy gig?

Well there is always Sasuke who was elected to legislative body but lost bid for governor. Is wrestler winning executive position>wrestler winning legislative one? Or does masked wrestler winning legislative position act as trump?

Local workers always work "security". Backseat Boys worked as security holding Angles gold metals during Angle challenges run in N.E.

Flair was there for a while before Hogan showed up.

So looked the actual people in Observer HOF as listed on wikipedia and Heyman in HOF is sillier than Ultimo. And why isn't Jack Pfefer in the HOF. I mean really if Ultimo and Heyman are in as promoters/bookers...why not Pfefer?

I don't remember what that was. Was that the Kristi Mist naked shoot? The thing where RF tried to channel Studs Terkel and do shoots with strippers?

Really? That’s ridiculous and kind of embarrassing. Does anyone talk about removing Phil Spector from the Rock N Roll HOF? And besides which isn’t mainstream celebrity one of Meltzer’s “qualifications”? Hence his constant talks of Ventura. Benoit is a bigger mainstream celebrity now than ever before. Bigger mainstream celeb than a good chunk of the HOF. Angle’s inclusion isn’t as embarrassing as Ultimo’s. Angle isn’t in because of Dave’s “legitimacy” markdom. Meltzer in his piece describing the difference between the various wrestling HOFs pointed out that what he thinks makes his “special” is the number of voters inside the biz. Angle is in because a large percentage of the Observer voters are people in the biz. Angle is in because insecure pro wrestlers (people inside the biz) are legitimacy marks. Ole writes in his book how none of these guys today could have headline Georgia back in his day because they don’t know how to work and then makes the exception of Kurt Angle. Not because Angle works like Ole but because saying that is functional equivalent of saying “Yeah that stuff I did where I cut the ring in half and such, that’s just like gold level Olympic athletics.” No way to do a HOF voted on by proffesional carnys without Angle getting in. Why would a Rey who retired in 98 be a candidate to go in HOF? The basis of his candidacy would be a lot weaker. A whole lot weaker. If Juventud retired in 98 would he be a candidate too? We know Rey is huge attendance and ratings star. Know that the Rey v Eddie storyline drew Austin v McMahon level ratings. But recently while reading one of these Meltz pieces on how the International market is subsidizing the domestic one, I wondered whether we underestimate Rey’s draw. Whenever anyone wrote about the WWE fad in Italy and Europe they always pointed to Rey as top star there (I think Italy only got Smackdown). I have no numbers and don’t want to extrapolating as though patterns in Italian market= patterns in international market as a whole. But something I was thinking about. Reason for keeping Norvell off the ballot? Is the MX with Norvell thought of as a lesser unit? Or is it just lack of footage? I’m always uncomfortable with the classification system in the HOF when it comes to Hamada’s candidacy. Hamada is classified as a Mexican candidate. If Hamada was being voted on opposite Japanese candidates, I could see making an argument that he’s more deserving than Saito, Akiyama, Kojima, Tamura, etc. But he’s being voted on opposite Mexican luchadors. And him going on a HOF as Mexican candidate before Blue Panther, Villano III, Atlantis, etc would be wrong. I cannot see anyone justifying a vote for Hamada over any other Mexican candidate. Unless Jose Lothario is being classified as Mexican. And why is Lothario even on this? For Mexican that meant nothing in Mexico was he bigger star than Pepper Gomez or Ricky Romero? Tito? Bigger than Chavo (who actually may have meant something in Mexico) in Cali? Than Black Gordman? If Lothario is a Mexican candidate than Hamada should go in above him.

IF WWE wasn't so commited to the "We're the only source of sports entertainment"out there talking point they might be able to do a half convincing it's all the fault of the evil "New Japan" dojo system.