Coffey

Everyone who counts loves Ned Flanders C.M. Punk!

I don't like Punk. Actually, C.M. Punk is fine but I wasn't a fan of the RAW 1,000th closing angle with him turning heel again. I do think that he is better as a heel than a babyface but I just don't really see the point. So now we're just killing time until January and that time is going to be occupied by The Big Show? I'm also not real high on C.M. Punk's actual wrestling but that would be a rant that no one really cares about.

They did come across as scripted and not inconsistent with the McMahon's / WWE shitting on Heyman over the years. I didn't really find them all that fascinating beyond the "Steph gets to have her egofuck moment to... christ this reminds me why I stopped watching everyone of these..." John I just thought it was weird because Steph wasn't saying that *SHE* was better than Paul Heyman, she was saying *HER DAD* was better than Paul Heyman. What sense does that make? I'm better than you because my father is more successful than you? That's the dumbest shit ever...

No, not at all. And better a happy drunk than a mean one. :-)

Ha! After reading your long-ass, positive & glowing review of the show on DVDVR I said to myself "he's drunk." You really were!

Well Waltman looked like he was fucked-up on something, either booze, pills or whatever, so it can really go either way.

It had to have been Sean Mooney, right? Everyone else that was on the show we've seen recently. Even Slick has made a Wrestlemania cameo in the past.

Oh, also apparently Austin didn't miss the show because he was filming a movie: http://brokenskullranch.com/archives/1142

No to both but it did have some fun parts. But you didn't miss anything that they won't just replay if it mattered anyway.

I think the biggest name that wasn't there that I wanted to see was Batista but it would have been cool to see more old schoolers too. I mean, Slick didn't get any pop whatsoever and pretty much stole the show!

What about Goldberg, Edge, Mark Henry, Wade Barrett, Kaientai, Steve Blackman, Goldust, Diesel, Hardcore Holly, Molly Holly, Michelle McCool, Mean Street Posse, Shane McMahon, The Godfather/Papa Shango/Kama, Ultimate Warrior, Ahmed Johnson, King Kong Bundy, Ted DiBiase, I.R.S., Tatanka, Mideon, Viscera, Ken Shamrock, Gangrel, Shawn Stasiak, The Boogeyman, Lance Storm or a plethora of other people? The way Meltzer made it sound, I thought this show was going to have like 200 people on it. And even if I wouldn't want to see a lot of those guys, I would take any of them over Brodus Clay squashing Jack Swagger in 30 seconds. And I know that Austin is filming his small role in that shitty Adam Sandler movie but who gives a fuck? There's a new terrible Adam Sandler movie every four months, there's never going to be another 1,000th RAW in his life time. Seems silly to not be able to get a day off.

Kinda with Dylan on this one. I expected a lot more & thought the show kinda sucked. I guess my expectations were too high. I should know better than that by now. Loss was right too in that Dave Meltzer definitely over-hyped this shit. I was expecting everyone under the sun and we didn't even get Austin or Goldberg. It was Sean Mooney and then a bunch of people we've seen lately or see all the time.

I like quite a few guys in NJPW better than anyone in WWE. I am glad that Rey is back though. That being said, EVERYONE better watch the 3-hour 1,000th episode of RAW tonight if you call yourself a wrestling fan. Even if you hate current WWE or were never a fan of Vince McMahon wrestling, the cameos alone will make it worth it, in my opinion. Or as Dave Meltzer put it (paraphrased): Everyone that isn't in re-hab this week, or that isn't dead, if they have a telephone they got a call.

C.M. Punk's gimmick moniker of "Best in the World" got me to thinking...who is the best in the world right now? It's definitely not Punk, not to me anyway.

Which is fine, you can dislike them. But aren't you at least glad you watched them so that you can have that difference of opinion? I think it's a lot easier when you have a starting list like that than trying to go through a guys entire career. I like the lists for that reason. Plus I like to see the "big" matches so I can debate them with others. For example, I didn't like the Punk/Cena MitB '11 match at all & liked the build-up & crowd more than the match itself but I was still glad that I watched it.

If you just ignore the ratings themselves it is usually a pretty good indicator as a list of good matches though.

but...but...there were a lot of tough people in Greenwich...but Shane was the toughest! MEAN STREET POSSE~! This thread has become so much more than I was anticipating. I'm really glad that I made it now. Also, props to anarchistxx for taking the defense of Angle in a thread where he'll obviously be the minority in that opinion.

We have four votes for Kurt Angle now. I would like to see one of the people that voted that way to explain their decisions and why they feel that way. This thread is sort of directionless if someone doesn't take the Angle side.

It would certainly be an interesting experiment.

Yeah but I wasn't really talking about casuals. If you ask 18-25 year olds that talk about wrestling on the internet, I think Angle wins. A lot of fans just think Cena isn't any good, that he's sloppy, that he's boring, etc. and that Angle was one of the best "technical wrestlers" like Benoit. That's why I think it's generational. The same way that a lot of fans are programmed to think Shawn is one of the best ever in the history of pro-wrestling. Like, you ask if HBK is in the top 100 most places and you get fucking laughed at.

I did anticipate that this forum would lean more toward John Cena but I had no idea that it would be this lopsided. I think the results would be close to this on DVDVR as well but on the majority of other wrestling forums, I think it would go the other way completely. I think a lot of it has to do with age and the amount of wrestling that has been watched by an individual. If you grew up during the Attitude Era and are really only exposed to WWE, I don't think that you're voting for Cena. Pleasantly surprised, I would say. :-)

This is interesting to me. If you add in things like drawing power, Cena kills Angle too. On the majority of wrestling sites around the internet, John Cena is the underdog. How much of that is because of WWE pushing Kurt Angle as a "technical wrestler" though? Or maybe it is just a case of fans not being as smart as they think they are. Or it's just subjective and an opinion so it can't be proved one way or the other. I wouldn't say that Kurt Angle sucks but his best stuff definitely came in WWE and it was when he was working with great wrestlers that could lead him through a match. It seems he got to a certain point, peaked, and was content to just stay there. Now he kind of feels like he just goes through the motions. Ironically, when people make arguments either for or against either guy, they seem to say the same things. If someone likes Cena they will say that Kurt Angle can't sell and all of his matches feel the same. If someone likes Kurt Angle, they will say that John Cena can't sell and all of his matches feel the same. That's why I thought it would be an interesting thread for comparison. Elsewhere, one point that was noted is that John Cena only has good matches if it's a gimmick match. I do find that interesting because a lot of his matches that are my favorite matches tend to be things like Last Man Standing, I Quit or Street Fight style gimmick matches.

I'm genuinely curious how people feel about this. I wanted to ask this question as its own thread instead of just an off-hand question in the comments thread. Let's get a list going of matches that matter. I need help and dates. We can debate the matches too (for example I know some people hate the Shane McMahon street fight). JOHN CENA: Vs. JBL, "I Quit," WWE Judgment Day 2005 Vs. Rob Van Dam, ECW One Night Stand 2006 Vs. Kurt Angle, Carlito, Chris Masters, Shawn Michaels & Kane. "Elimination Chamber," WWE New Years Revolution 2006 Vs. Umaga, "Last Man Standing," WWE Royal Rumble 2007 Vs. Shawn Michaels, WWE Wrestlemania 23 Vs. Batista, "Last Man Standing," WWE Extreme Rules 2010 Vs. C.M. Punk, WWE Money in the Bank 2011 Vs. Brock Lesnar, WWE Extreme Rules 2012 KURT ANGLE: Vs. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, WWE Summerslam 2001 Vs. Shane McMahon, "Street Fight," WWE King of the Ring 2001 & Chris Benoit Vs. Edge & Rey Mysterio, WWE Smackdown 7/11/02 & Chris Benoit Vs. Edge & Rey Mysterio, WWE No Mercy 2002 Vs. Chris Benoit, WWE Royal Rumble 2003 Vs. Shawn Michaels, WWE Wrestlemania 21 Vs. The Undertaker, WWE No Way Out 2006 Vs. Samoa Joe, TNA Genesis 2006

As a worker, is John Cena better than Kurt Angle?

Listening to Wrestling Observer Radio today, it struck me that one of the things about Dave that irks me the most is he takes everything too literally. He doesn't seem to grasp hyperbole, exaggeration or sarcasm. He also doesn't seem to have a sense of humor at all, he's so goddamn dry. Also, the newsletter said that Money in the Bank had, well lemme just quote: That has to be a type-o, right?