Coffey

So, did anyone watch the live YouShoot iPPV? Thoughts? I'll do a running list of shit he says while watching that might be relevant: Thought Nigel McGuiness was a great talent which surprised him on the mic but it was circumstances beyond TNA's control which led to him not being used. Said he's never seen a single show from Ring of Honor. New Jack asked if Vince Russo created Steve Austin's "Stone Cold" character based off of The Sandman from ECW. Russo took several minutes to avoid the question but basically said Austin came up with it. Then New Jack didn't shut up for like ten minutes just rambling about nonsense. "If you could start a promotion tomorrow, with five superstars past or present, who would your five guys be?" - 1st: Big Cat Ernie Ladd, my world champion. Tag Team champs: Handsome Jimmy, Luscious Johnny Valentine. Shout out to Bruno. The Rock & Steve Austin. "Any animosity toward Jim Cornette?" - "Not an ounce." Alright, I've lost interest. Not watching this anymore. Just seems like Russo trying to get some quick cash to me and repeating all his BS lines from the past.

I assume it'll have something to do with Brock then? Whatever. If it's not about wrestling, I find it hard to make myself care.

TNA has a few people that I care about, but it's certainly not many, that's for sure. I actually really like both Eric Young & Robbie E. and they're pretty much just comedy characters nowadays. I lose a lot of interest when they do things like put A.J. Styles in the main event or put the T.V. title on D-Von Dudley. But James Storm, Robert Roobe, Austin Aries and even Bully Ray lately have all been pretty damn good. That's like six guys that I enjoy, which is more than the four I enjoy in WWE.

I use the word jobber in everyday life as a derogatory term. I used to work at a local game store and people heard me say it all the time and started saying it themselves. Now there are big gaming circles in my city running around calling everyone jobber. It's pretty surreal.

He was obviously paraphrasing. You know what he meant! And that forum has 215k members. It's quite amazing, really. Not the forum itself but just the popularity.

www.wrestlingforum.com I bet you don't last ten minutes...

You can joke but a fat white guy coming out and doing karate poses is not going to do anyone any favors, but I will concede that the wrestling would be better. On that note, I think you said it best:

Well, I don't think any one thing killed WCW either but to me, this is the worst thing since the InVasion angle being so badly mutilated that WWE have done. And had that not involved so many more people, I would say this was worse. I would argue that Brock would have been a bigger deal than The Rock even. The Rock, as successful as he and his movies are, wasn't getting 1-million buy Pay-Per-Views. Which is still the model that WWE uses. Granted not all MMA fans are wrestling fans but not all Hollywood movie fans are wrestling fans either. This could have, and should have, easily gotten them through the summer, even with a limited schedule on Brock. (To be fair, The Rock did get a 1-million buy PPV against Cena at Wrestlemania) I think that is putting it mildly. We're not even in June yet and it is seemingly completely over. Why did Triple H have to be involved? Why did John Cena cut that post-match promo saying he was OK? If WWE is really so worried that a contractually obligated employee would potentially screw them over so badly, why bring him back in the first place? If you're so terrified that he might leave down the road, what's to say he couldn't have left right before the PPV main event with Cena? Instead we get John Cena Vs. John Laurinaitis in a comedy match, which was actually better, in my opinion, than if we would have had to sit through a John Cena Vs. Lord Tensai feud. And now we're moving onto John Cena Vs. The Big Show. Laurinaitis, Tensai & Big Show or Brock Lesnar? It's a no brainer. And let's not even get started on the Triple H promo where he just hammered home the fact that Brock was just another guy. "We could use you. Who doesn't wanna see you against X superstar? You're not bigger than WWE!" ...great. Yeah, let's kill off any intrigue or mystique in two days. I don't think I have ever felt so passionately about anything WWE related...ever. This isn't hyperbole or over-exaggeration, this was the worst decision WWE could have possibly made. Like, if you had the events lined out for you on paper and had to come up with the absolute worst way to go about things, you could not have even brainstormed a scenario that played out as bad as what happened in reality.

I think what bothers me the most is that WWE just come off as being so petty instead of doing what is best for business. They always sort of have, as they bend to the will and ego of Vince McMahon, but WWE is a publicly traded company now. WWE can do whatever they want, however they want, and people will keep watching and trying to defend their awful decisions. Were WWE that terrified that Brock would leave if he went over Cena and that it would some how invalidate everything else that Cena has done for the past several years? Is there a big, secret clamoring for another John Cena Vs. The Big Show feud that I'm unaware of? That's their summer plans!?

Yeah better to lose to a part timer who is leaving soon. You can argue all you want, but you're still wrong. This whole thing was done wrong. It should have built to a bigger match, not hotshot into a main event three weeks after Wrestlemania so John Cena can beat Lesnar like Lesnar is just any other guy. Instead, they hotshot to it, get very few extra buys because of it, kill Lesnar in the process, piss away millions of dollars and now Lesnar might just leave. But, sure, Cena sure does look better because he beat Lesnar! Good thing they started that "feud" with Triple H right after!! An even more stupid decision than the infamous WCW fingerpoke of doom or giving away Goldberg/Hogan on free TV. And I stand by that. Worst WWE decision in the last decade, easily.

Watching this whole mess unfold has been so surreal. Even from the start, with Brock's WWE re-debut, where the crowd was chanting his name before he came out and then him taking forever to actually come out. Now we're wondering if Brock is going back to UFC and it's only been like two months. Again, John Cena winning was fucking retarded. "But he can't lose again!" *loses to Johnny Ace*

You can just do an Irish Whip and Back Body Drop them over the rope to eliminate them.

Plus his promo ability, his pushing of the prayers (which definitely played a part) and being a superhero. He was a role model, in a sense. He was on the cover of Sports Illustrated. He was on Johnny Carson! Johnny Carson alone is so monumentally big of a thing that it's mind-blowing to me. I think, if I am being completely honest, and this is not necessarily how I feel, but in professional wrestling in the United States, ever more so back during the 80's compared to today, the actual bell-to-bell match is what mattered the least. At least in WWF. It was about the storyline and the show. Then it was about who won and if they cheated or not. Hogan would have something bad happen to him, like a fireball to the face, or an Earthquake squash on Brother Love's show, or Zeus blocking the cage door. Then he would get put out of action. Then he would come back and win in the end. It was basic but it worked and that is one big thing that is lacking today. Sometimes it feels like the fans that most heavily scrutinize wrestlers the most are the ones that understand the business the least. It doesn't matter if André Vs. Hogan is going to be a shit fest of a match. People want to see if André can be beaten. People want to see if The Hulkster can body slam this monster. Those 93,000 people didn't buy tickets because they wanted to see work rate.

I am of the opinion that the wrong finish can completely kill a match. This match awesome. Then John Cena won. So, welp. I really liked the body of the match. I like how it was worked. It was making John Cena a sympathetic babyface again, instead of a guy that just divides crowds. Brock was re-established as a no-nonsense ass-kicking killing machine. Then John Cena just wins and goes back to being the 50/50 guy and Brock becomes just another guy. If that match plays out the exact same way and you just have Brock reverse the AA into an F5 things would be a lot different. Not just in that match but with everything WWE has been doing for the last couple weeks. Instead we get bullshit fucking arguments like "well Cena can't lose multiple PPVs in a row!" so he just loses to fucking Johnny Ace instead so he can move into another feud with The Big Show that NOBODY wants to see. UGH. Anyone that still thinks Cena winning that match was the right decision is a moron. I'm sorry. That is the match that I will point to from now on whenever I want proof to show someone that WWE doesn't know what the fuck they are doing.

I think the biggest problem with a thread like this is that at the end of it all, no one is going to change their opinion. Hulk Hogan is one of my favorites EVER and I DESPISE John Cena. So, yeah, I'm obviously biased but there's no argument in this life or the next that is going to get me to vote for Cena over Hogan. It's just not happening. The hard part though is that I genuinely believe Hogan is better. But in this day and age, it's really hard to differentiate, at least for a me, an in-ring worker from everything else that they have done. When I think of Chris Benoit, as an example, I think of a man that murdered his family and then killed himself. It doesn't really matter how great a wrestler he was anymore. Just like with Hogan, I think of all the bad stuff surrounding his family and how he was pretty much my hero when I was a kid. John Cena I am just completely apathetic about, although I admit he's a great guy when it comes to things like Make-A-Wish and has had his fair share of good matches, like the previously mentioned Umaga match. But I disagree with people saying that Hogan never had a great match. Wrestlemania V to me with Savage is a great match. So is his match with Warrior. So are a lot of his matches. But we're not all necessarily looking for the same thing from matches. Like, the Wrestlemania X-8 match with The Rock had me marking out so hard I damn near cried as a full-grown man. What the fuck has John Cena done? I'm sorry but I'm just horribly biased.

The thing to me is, Hogan didn't do a lot but everything that he did he did well. Nothing looked sloppy or looked poorly executed. Everything John Cena does looks sloppy to me. Like it lacks crispness. He's like the polar opposite of Bret Hart. Everything from the Attitude Adjustment and the STF to his half-assed Fisherman Suplex and top rope leg drop. It's not that John Cena isn't capable of having great matches, as he has, he just doesn't strike me as a great wrestler. I think WWE is aware of it too which is why they try to get him over as a brawler or a fighter. He seems exceptionally forced. Hogan felt natural. Hogan was a smart worker and he knew that sometimes less was more, which seems to be a lost art nowadays. Especially in U.S. indies. But it was more than just the moves, it was the facial expressions and the selling and the drama too. Cena has some pretty good facial expressions sometimes and other times, like his angry face backstage on RAW a couple months ago when Zack Ryder was leaving in an ambulance, are so back they're B-movie hysterical. I like John Cena and think he gets a bad rap. Especially with as hard as he works and all he does for the company. But I still think Hogan wins in a rout. Maybe nostalgia and rose-colored glasses and just age in general play a huge part in me being biased but Hogan was capable of making me care about matches that I should have no earthly reason to give a shit about. Whereas John Cena, for me, it's all about his opponent making me want to watch John Cena, Hogan made me want to watch Hogan, regardless of if he was squaring off against Sgt. Slaughter, Zeus, Savage or Earthquake. I sort of agree with this but it was just a different era. Hogan didn't really have 14 PPVs a year to work with back in the 80's. And it's not like Hogan's matches, at least his Wrestlemania matches, were bad. I mean, they're not great by today's standards, but they hold up surprisingly well and were packed full of emotion. Vs. Bundy at 2, Vs. Savage at 5, Vs. Warrior at 6, Vs. Slaughter at 7...those are all watchable still. Plus just the spectacle of André at 3 is still insane. The body slam moment gives me goosebumps 25 years later. Hogan was the top babyface during his WWF Hulkamania run. Then he was the top heel during his WCW "Hollywood" run. Who else can do that?

I just can't buy Jericho as a serious character. I like him best when he's a comedy heel. Make me laugh because you'll never make me believe. That sort of thing.

I can't help but wonder how different Jericho's return would be perceived had he just won the Royal Rumble as planned instead of it being hot-shot last minute onto Sheamus.

Brodus Clay is interesting. In my opinion, he is awful, but I have seen the argument that without the dancing gimmick (which I condemned from the get-go) he would have been dead in the water. The gimmick at least makes him memorable. I'm sure it could be a thread all by itself, not just about Brodus, but how a gimmick that is bad can still be better than just being another nameless face in a crowd. Not really a derivative gimmick, which I know we have a topic for (although it is that too). I think a lot of people, myself included, thought that Brodus was just going to debut and be another big hoss with a monster push. He is still a big hoss getting a monster push but instead of being a dominant heel he's a comedy babyface. It's sort of weird. Granted I think the dancing gimmick has a short shelf life and it is going to require a repackaging too but Santino has done well with what he was given. A lot better than say Eugene. On the other hand, it is a good case of showing how you can find something for people to do though. I can't remember her name, but the shorter of the two dancers is the first girl eliminated from Tough Enough. The one that said her favorite match was Melina Vs. Alicia Fox. I believe she's the only person from that entire show that made it onto TV. I know the winner, that Silent Rage jobber, was just fired recently and I think he even failed a wellness test beforehand too. But just making her a back-up dancer, she doesn't really hurt the show and I think it's a perfectly acceptable role for her. I mean, she still gets a paycheck and that money could probably be better spent somewhere else but I'm sure WWE blows a ton more money on things a lot less important than giving someone a steady job. It's a hell of a lot better than slapping her in the ring would have been. I liked Kelly Kelly once upon a time too. I thought she was fine on ECW during the Extreme Expose stuff. And I still see signs of her being acceptable when doing backstage things, like talking to The Big Show a few weeks ago acting casual. It's just trying to put her in the ring and act like she's a credible competitor that things go wrong. They keep adding things to Brodus Clay but none of them actually make him any better. Just a bigger show. Now he introduces the dancers, the disco ball goes off with the music, the dancers come out and then Brodus and they dance to the ring, get in the ring dance some more and have pyro go off. And now they're post-match dancing with kids too. They keep adding things but none of them make him a better worker or stop him from getting blown up!

I missed it & I've never seen him work before. He seems like a great talker, is his ring work any good?

Kaientai was pretty bad. Not because of their talent level, as the talent was there, but how WWF used them. Racial stereotypes were flying everywhere, they never really got to work... "I choppy choppy your pee pee!"

I believe you mean Rhythm & Blues, sir! As a tag team, did the Steiner Brothers ever work heel?

The Road Warrior came out in 1981. The Road Warriors debuted in 1983 (according to Wikipedia). Demolition were a rip-off of The Road Warriors and wore the outfits that The Humungous sort of wore in The Road Warrior. I kind of just always assumed all of it was based off of the movie. There's even a promo that Demolition cut where they call Legion of Doom "nothing but a Demolition rip-off!" I always thought that was a rib.

It's hard to say. I'm of the belief that if it happened on TV, then it is a work. So people talking about how it could be a shoot, I still don't see. But having John Cena beat Brock and then Brock just move on like it didn't matter and have John Cena move on to Lord Tensai and Johnny Ace (when I thought it was Punk that had the big problems with Ace) just seems like a lot of bad writing/booking. Which I suppose is nothing new for WWE. Brock is supposed to be on a limited schedule and I imagine he'll work Triple H at Summerslam. Not entirely sure what part of RAW he was referencing but that's all that has happened the last couple of weeks. I'm guessing Lance Storm just saw that Brock/Cena wasn't going to continue and then thought "OK, yeah, that's bad." But I obviously can't speak for him.