Coffey

No one better to ask than you guys, so I'll ask here: does a match between Tito Santana Vs. Rick Rude exist where neither man is a jobber? I would love to see a babyface Tito Vs. heel Rude match where they were given some time.

Kane is worse than Demolition. I asked about Kane before here once. I think I asked if he EVER had a good match. Quite a few people replied listing matches but none of them changed my opinion of him, that's for sure. He's big, slow, lethargic and boring. And I like a lot of big guy wrestlers, so it doesn't have anything to do with having physical limitations or working as a big man in WWE. He's just not any good and never has been. He's better than 9-1-1!

Last I heard she was in the punk bank The Luchagors. I don't dislike punk music in general, I've listened to several punk bands over the years. I wouldn't say it's my favorite thing in the world as I tend to lean more toward things like Tom Waits, but yeah, they're not good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFavmGJVqBI

Yeah and don't forget, in addition to women you listed Maria, Maryse, Tiffany & Michelle McCool all left too, for one reason or another. Plus Mickie James went to TNA. Which, when you think about it, Maria was voted Diva of the Year, Maryse was a former Women's Champ, Tiffany was a G.M. and McCool was a Women's Champ. So they all got TV time & were built-up. I'm not sure what the circumstances surrounding each of them leaving is, but whatever. It seems like the women now are a lot more open to the idea of finding work elsewhere. Trish is doing yoga now and Lita is doing some crappy band shit. I think a lot of it has to do with WWE being stubborn and not wanting to let the women pursue other things besides wrestling while still being employed. I remember that Mickie James wanted to sing (despite being terrible) and Maria wanted a clothing line or something. Both are still involved in wrestling, so I assume they weren't looking to leave the industry.

Or she'll just never get called up from FCW, which seems more likely to me.

They're just going to try to rebuild the Divas division into a wrestling division, re-establish credibility to the title over the next several years, so that Triple H's daughter can win it and become the youngest female champion ever. Then they'll retire the belt, kill the division and call her the best ever.

40 minute self-aware "epics" with the killing of both near falls and moves has more to do with ROH being a bucket of suck than the faux MMA does, IMO. I don't wanna see Steen doing Suplerplexes onto guard rails either.

TNA is so good right now, it's scary. It's not perfect by any means but by comparison to, say, WWE or ROH, it's ridiculous. The PPV last night was real good to me. A.J. Styles, Austin Aries & Samoa Joe all had good showings. Now I wake up and hear WWE have signed both PAC and Sara Del Rey. Plus they're ready to call up Dean Ambrose and they still have Claudio & Hero. Meanwhile C.M. Punk & American Dragon are floating around the upper card. Old School ROH is taking over the wrestling world!

An example:

This is exactly what I was talking about!!!

He always had the Arm Drag! :-)

I would definitely disagree with Dave Meltzer saying "the product is good." I think the biggest problem with Ring of Honor is that the product is bad. If the product was good, people would pay to go and see it. I read they're drawing crowds of like 500? That's not a coincidence. The number of vocal ROH fans, even on the internet, has certainly dwindled over the last few years. I agree with what Kenny King said in the YouTube shoot clip: ROH is deferring too far away from what pro-wrestling should be. It's not about kickpads and Super Dragonplexes for 2-counts. A friend of mine asked me to explain what was wrong with Ring of Honor to him in layman's terms. I told him to imagine The Undertaker in a match and in the first five minutes, he hits the Walk-the-Ropes arm-wringer spot, his flying plancha spot, a Chokeslam, a Tombstone and the Hell's Gate and then has to go another 20 minutes. I have purchased Ring of Honor DVDs in the past. For example, I own Joe Vs. Kobashi. I bought those DVDs because the wrestling was good. I bought tickets and traveled to shows with my friends too. In Dayton, OH & Chicago, IL. It wasn't flawless from top-to-bottom, but it was a good in-ring product. In made up for a lot of the flaws, like the bad production and the audio. But nowadays, ROH still has all of those problems with production and audio and they're still trying to get by on just having great wrestling, but to me, the wrestling isn't good anymore so it no longer masks the flaws. I don't want to see moves killed and the business basically exposed. Even if I know it's a work, how far can you raise the bar? It's like the hardcore bar only without the hardcore. Instead of going from tables to light tubes to fire we go from Package Piledrivers, to apron Half-Nelson suplexes to rolling Super Brainbusters. And like Mark Madden said, there's no one in the company that can cut a promo to save their life, sans maybe Kevin Steen. Even the Briscoes, whom I like, get over in promos because of cussing and they're still really sloppy in the ring. So why buy into that? I want a pro-wrestling show that makes sense from a continuity standpoint that doesn't insult my intelligence. I want matches that have a beginning, middle and end that build to the finish and give you a payoff. Not just guys seeing who can one-up the other with the most absurd shit. I used to like ROH and I want to still like it but they pretty much do the exact opposite of what I want. Which this is the same company that used to do exactly what I wanted, so I don't understand the 180 and I certainly don't understand doing a 180 and then people trying to act like it's the same as it used to be. What the fuck show is Meltzer watching? Just the hour TV? Because the iPPVs have been fucking trainwrecks. I watched a mother-fucker do a superplex onto a guard rail that was propped up on two steel chairs and it was a 2-count. That's not what I want from wrestling... And let's not even get into the fans that DO attend the shows still. My goodness. Even if the product was good, I would just order DVDs and not buy tickets just to avoid those dudes and their "me first" mentality.

It made sense if he was going for the Double-Chickenwing.

So there is a lot of drama surrounding Ring of Honor lately, so I wanted to make this thread because I don't think we should clog up the "Comments" thread with it. Plus, honestly, I just find it all fascinating. So, Kenny King, 1/2 of the ROH Tag Team Champions (with Rhett Titus) showed up on Impact Live on Thursday night. His ROH contract ran out but he had a "verbal and handshake" agreement with ROH to not work elsewhere (or some shit like that). So ROH is mad and released a statement (which they have since pulled down): There is also this video from two months ago, with Kenny King expressing frustrations, so this wasn't out of the blue: He seems to express a lot of disdain for the wrestling style and Sinclair as an owner. On the PWTorchcast with Kyle O'Reilly he stated that Sinclair won't run ads during RAW in ROH markets because "Sinclair doesn't think any ROH fans watch RAW." Mark Madden has written a few articles about ROH, one of which stirred up quite some shit (and got him lambasted on Twitter by ROH roster members): http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials/2571...ecline-and-fall Dave Meltzer said this: Kevin Kelly responded to the Mark Madden article: http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials/2574...onor-need-to-do So that's where we're at. Sorry if I forgot anything. If a mod wants to move the discussion from the comments thread to here, that would be cool too.

Making it now. Will take a couple.

Should we have a Ring of Honor impending drama bomb megathread maybe? I'm not sure if we have enough activity for it around these parts. But between the Mark Madden columns, the Kenny King situation, the linked video, the iPPV problems, the Sinclair statement and rumored Jim Cornette animosity the writing seems to be on the wall.

This was the first time I have seen the link but man, I think a shit storm is definitely brewing. Now I suddenly have an urge to follow a bunch of ROH guys on Twitter and read all the message forums to find out what all is going down. That's the most interest I have had in ROH in about six years... Glad to know that it isn't just the fans not at the live events noticing how ridiculous ROH has gotten.

Everything about Ring of Honor is bush league. They have regressed a lot in the last seven years. They were incredible in 2005. In 2012 they're unwatchable. It's pretty surreal. It's not just the roster either they just never move forward with ANYTHING. Wrestling, production, sound, lighting, commentating...it never improves anywhere. Just look at all the repeated iPPV mistakes that happened month after month. They're a joke.

I genuinely like the movie. It's campy fun, like UHF, Evil Dead or Toxic Avenger, all of which I also own.

And even smaller when talking about draws too. I hate when being a draw is a criteria for it. It's why I hate the Observer year-end awards so much. I do like the no answer is the same so far though, shows the diversity here.

This thread makes me curious for who everyone thinks is the actual greatest wrestler that ever lived. Just by ring work, not by promos/drawing too. Then who is the best when you factor in promos as well? As a fan, I don't really care about drawing power. I know it matters but I think that takes a lot of the opinion out of the question and turns it more into numbers.

Happy Birthday, Sek. Thanks for all the un-bannings at Dragonlair after Anvil & I clowned on Tails' mullet and Milhouses terrible drawings. You're old and busted. :-)

I had heard that those stupid things were supposed to be for advertisers/investors or some shit but I honestly don't know how mentioning you came out before Facebook would be a beneficial acknowledgement to anyone. "Well gee howdy, they did come out before that internet page! We better buy into that!"