Coffey

Here's an exercise. Put these groups of three in order from best to worst: Rick Rude Curt Hennig Ted DiBiase Ric Flair Terry Funk Jerry Lawler Stan Hansen Steve Williams Terry Gordy === This is what I was talking about in the John Cena thread. It's so hard for me to say one guy is better than another guy when they're both great. A is better than B and B is better than C so A is more better than C than it is better than B.

(this post for future reference) A few notes for me, personally: I have very limited knowledge & exposure to female pro-wrestlers, especially before 2005 (this will explain my exclusion of them, I'm just ignorant to them) I have almost zero knowledge & exposure to Lucha Libre. I have tried to start watching more recently. I have watched pro-wrestling since 1987, started with WWF. I don't know if I have ever seen a Memphis match that didn't have Jerry Lawler in it I want to base my list on in-ring so as not to exclude wrestlers from non-English speaking promotions EDIT: I'm at right around 40 so far & I'm not sure if wrestlers of today suck or if I'm just horribly biased but I think the "newest" guy on my list is Rey Mysterio, Jr. I don't think anyone from the last fifteen or so years is on it yet, & I'm not sure if that's wrong... Maybe that's the difference between working territories or in other countries, or just being brought up from developmental, like OVW or FCW. I almost feel a sort of "pressure" for including guys. Like, I feel like these lists "should" include some guys but I just haven't seen anything by them, or not enough of them, or honestly thought they sucked, which can just be a generational thing. Guys like Bruno Sammartino, Bruiser Brody, Strangler, The Destroyer, etc. I have only seen a few Brody matches, never seen a Strangler or Destroyer match and Bruno bores me to tears. EDIT2: Here's more guys to debate because they are odd to me: Chris Jericho Brian Pillman Dustin Rhodes/Goldust Chris Candido Bam Bam Bigelow I have always felt that Jericho was massively overrated but I still think he might make the list. Pillman I just don't know if he ever did enough. Same with Dustin. But maybe both are better than Jericho? It's hard for me. BBB is a personal fav and Candido I feel is underrated, if anything, but still not sure if good enough.

A lot of different ways to approach this thread as far as replies are concerned. I'm trying to spark debate & discussion but this thread is also going to be my personal playground for compiling my personal list. So, here goes: We've talked about Shawn Michaels & John Cena. We have been critical of others like Kurt Angle or Triple H. I have seen several threads, not just here but on others forums as well, discussing "The List" as it pertains to personal favorites/greatest wrestlers ever. I would like to use this thread to credit or discredit various wrestlers. To hear differing viewpoints on stars of years past and potentially remind me of moments/matches that I may have over-looked, never seen or simply forgotten. Right now, I can't even get to 100, let alone start cutting guys. So I think I'm going to stop at 50 & go from there. Once I have a definitive list written out, I can just update it over time & if I bump someone, they can move down instead of off the list completely, so that my list can grow from there. Not to steal the thunder of anyone else, but we could compare the wrestlers to Triple H, Shawn Michaels, John Cena & Kurt Angle as a starting point. I'm finally putting pen-to-paper & making a definitive list of my Top 50 favorite pro-wrestlers, as it pertains to an in-ring perspective. That way, when someone asks, be it in person or on-line, I can simply consult my list & give an answer, using my list as the reference. I can simply update my list, both the names & the numbers over time. This is a project that I have wanted to take on for awhile but I kept putting it off as it seems like a daunting task that will ultimately probably prove to be pretty fruitless, but I have an abundance of time & while thinking about some wrestlers today, I finally wanted to do it. Thoughts on the following wrestlers: (these are guys that I have been thinking about lately) Hulk Hogan Roddy Piper Sean Waltman Lex Luger Scott Hall Scott Steiner Jake Roberts John Tenta Magnum T.A. Is it unfair to hold a style against a wrestler? As an example, guys like Earthquake, One Man Gang or King Kong Bundy worked a big man style, so do you only compare them to other big men, like Big Van Vader? By that same token, do you compare cruiserweight/light-heavyweight wrestlers to other guys of their style or the Lucha style or just to everyone as a whole? I'm asking not as a yes/no matter-of-fact question but how you guys specifically feel. How about tag workers? I know in the HBK thread, Loss listed several women in his favorite list. So maybe that can be a talking point as well. Are you only as strong a worker as the talent that you're given to work with? The Undertaker has had some good WWE style main events lately but I don't think anyone was trying to call him a good worker when he was a no-selling zombie working with guys like Giant Gonzales. Another idea I had, although not one I would want to be in charge of, a "tournament" or sorts, where people submit ballots with their Top 10 lists of wrestlers & we give a weighted point system to wrestlers based on their number on lists. Like #1 on a list would be worth 10 points, #2 worth 9 points, etc. & then add up all the scores at the end to form a ProwrestlingOnly.com List.

Hmm, my mood definitely changes my thought process as it pertains to fairly (or unfairly) criticizing wrestlers. I think Shawn Michaels is definitely in my Top 100 & Kurt Angle is definitely not. John Cena is up-in-the-air at the moment as currently, I can't put him above guys like Scott Steiner, which I think a lot of it has to do with nostalgia. Those early 90's Steiner tags where Scotty was just busting out the Frankensteiner are a lot of fun to me. I am trying to form a list, for the first time, however. An actual pen-to-paper list that I can number & update over time so when threads come up like this I can look & answer.

I really dislike Kurt Angle. His match with Jeff Hardy on iMPACT! last night pretty much summed up every reason why too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKMgfUAFZQ Starts 1:04:00

It becomes...fabricated? Because that pretty much sums up WWE as a whole. Nothing feels organic anymore, not even the crowd, sans when they get a really smarky crowd in like Toronto or NYC.

Yeah, I mean, people are either there to cheer here or boo him, but they're there because of him, since the show is presented as John Cena & Friends. He's also one of the only guys that draws and like half of the top ten merchandise items are his. It's not a coincidence, WWE did it to themselves.

If I had to guess I would say it's because no one in 2012 cares about Jerry Lawler. The majority of the people in the crowd are going to be new PG fans and their parents. Granted they don't care about Sin Cara either, so I don't know. I think it's just a case of WWE only making John Cena look like a star & everyone else doesn't matter. C.M. Punk has been the WWE Champion for almost a year now & he's still pretty much just the guy who isn't John Cena. And that's after beating Cena like three times now. He's just always going to be second (or third) fiddle & so is everyone else. They didn't care about Punk/Lawler, they were just waiting for John Cena to show up. ...and now it's three hours of waiting until John Cena shows up. Nothing else on the show even matters. It's depressing.

Last night, while watching with two friends, I just realized that the biggest problem with WWE is that nothing matters. The wrestlers don't matter, the wins/losses don't matter, the titles don't matter, the matches don't matter. None of it has any direction & there aren't any consequences. It's just a bunch of un-over guys, with no direction, killing time. Let's say The Miz wins that match against John Cena as an example. Michael Cole would make a comment about "big upset by The Miz!" and then we go backstage to another vignette and it's already forgotten. Or the tag match that the babyfaces won with a Brogue Kick. Instead, Ziggler wins with a Zig-Zag. It doesn't matter at all. The Miz is the Intercontinental Champion and just can lose clean in the middle & it doesn't matter because no one cares. There's no heat for anyone because all the entire roster does is trade wins back-and-forth.

I like Jim Cornette, he's really charismatic. I can listen to him talk about wrestling all day. Especially when he's going off on people. His re-telling of the Boogeyman character in OVW was great. I just think he's a creative mind that knows so much about wrestling that he would be beneficial, he would just work better in group because he needs a filter creatively. You realize by describing him like that you make him sound like a more personable version of Russo. Although Cornette is a wrestling guy & Russo wasn't, I don't think it's really that far off base. It might have been at one time but I don't think it is anymore. And I would point to Ring of Honor as my defense. Cornette obviously knows a lot about the business & the history of wrestling but his ideas are really outdated. Just like Roddy Piper isn't controversial anymore, like he thinks he is. The business is passing these guys by.

What kills WWE tag matches the most for me are when someone gets thrown out of the ring and you get the Michael Cole "we're about to go to commercial!" voice. Then, no matter what happened prior to the break, when you come back the heel is going to have the babyface in a headlock.

I like Jim Cornette, he's really charismatic. I can listen to him talk about wrestling all day. Especially when he's going off on people. His re-telling of the Boogeyman character in OVW was great. I just think he's a creative mind that knows so much about wrestling that he would be beneficial, he would just work better in group because he needs a filter creatively.

I think he's out-of-touch & was trying to create something that no WWE fan would have gave a shit about. I don't think the Invasion angle played out well, mind you, but his was somehow worse. Killing kayfabe & playing the "I know all that shit was fake but THIS is real!" is the same exact shit that he blasts Vince Russo for. Granted Cornette didn't have a ton of time to come up with his ideas, but with how fast-paced and last-minute wrestling seems to be nowadays, that's not really a credible excuse to cling to anymore. He's just delusion or incapable of adapting to the times that have changed. Hey, I loved Terry Funk, & Dusty Rhodes & the like too. That doesn't mean you have them wrestling in the year 2001 on one of your big shows, let alone going over younger guys.

Yeah, I saw it when it came out. What I took away from it was that Jim Cornette is not only way too Southern, and has his favorites/biased towards certain guys, but he's dated & well past the times. Which, coincidentally, has also played out in Ring of Honor. Having Intercontinental Champion Terry Funk Vs. The Undertaker at Wrestlemania pretty much sums it all up.

No reason for me to paste my same thoughts again so I'll just say two things: 1. I'm genuinely surprised at the love for Dolph/Jericho as I thought it was VERY sub par, especially from what those guys can usually do. 2. Brock Lesnar & Triple H both are very polarizing figures. (I did paste my thoughts on a blog here & on DVDVR)

Santino Marella© Vs. Antonio Cesaro: ★ ¾ Dolph Ziggler Vs. Chris Jericho: ★ ★ ½ Daniel Bryan Vs. Kane: ★ ¾ The Miz© Vs. Rey Mysterio: ★ ★ Sheamus© Vs. Alberto Del Rio: ★ ★ ¾ Kofi Kingston & R-Truth© Vs. The Prime Time Players: ★ ★ ★ ¼ C.M. Punk© Vs. John Cena Vs. The Big Show: ★ ★ ★ ½ Brock Lesnar Vs. Triple H: ★ ★ ★ ★ Cesaro is as strong as an ox & I'm glad to see him win some gold in WWE. The match was built around the Cobra spot, which was kind of ruined by Cesaro kicking The Cobra sock out of the ring & then Aksana having to run around the ring to put it back into the corner. I was legit impressed with Cesaro deadweight lifting Santino for the Gutwrench Suplex though. That was sick! I expected a lot more from Jericho/Ziggler but they don't seem to mesh real well. Everything after the Frankensteiner was fine, and there were some cool false finishes, but before that spot there was a lot of miscommunication & confusion. The wrong man went over too. I do suspect, however, that some people will overrate this match solely because of the two men in it (much like I think people will overrate the Daniel Bryan match). Daniel Bryan Vs. Kane was completely forgettable & seemed rather pointless. The Miz Vs. Rey Mysterio was too short & the ending seemed odd to me. I feel like Mysterio is still in the dreaded "doghouse" in WWE. This match really needed more time. Sheamus Vs. Del Rio fell flat at the end, just as it seemed to be getting decent. Del Rio also seemed to be gassed up pretty early, which was weird. Terrible finish. Did they fuck up or something? It just seemed so odd & anti-climatic. I really liked the opening with the brawl leading to the double over-the-top-rope spot. I also thought the ADR top rope single-arm DDT was awesome. Tag title match impressed me. Kofi is SO good & the PTP have really improved. Pleasantly surprised. I wish this match could have had some more time too. In the triple threat match, haters be damned, The Big Show stole the show (pun intended). Watching him play Goliath while Punk & Cena played pinball was great. Greatly enjoyed this match until the he double-submission spot. Which was great too, although I wish it didn't lead to the confusing finish. Just an excuse to get AJ some TV time I guess (and good lord did she ever milk it). Really killed the flow of the match though & stopped it from being great. Maria Menounos wearing a Bob Backlund t-shirt was awesome. Concert bombed, as expected, because wrestling fans are there to see wrestling, not a bad live music performance. Layla is the only diva that can dance. The main event, well, I won't lie, watching The Beast Incarnate Brockzilla beat the living hell out of Triple H brought a smile to my face. HHH got in so little offense for the majority of the match early on he may as well have been Spike Dudley out there! Although I do think that Brock went to the same well one or two too many times (corner shoulder thrusts, arm-trapped body slams, kimora attempts) early the match definitely picked up later. H³ working Brock's stomach was some great psychology going back to his real UFC problems, & Brock working over the arm of The Game going back to his storyline of breaking it was good too. Easily the Match of the Night & I don't think that was an accident either. Not really sure why they went the referee route instead of just officially making the match No Disqualification. You don't see Hunter tap out often, so that was surprising especially with Brock basically no-selling the second Pedigree. Tonight to me felt like one of those nights where the boys might have been told to "tone it down" so as not to upstage the main event. Fun show, nothing terribly offensive & the main event really delivered. I think WWE just charges too much for their shows & since this was a "Big four" expectations were probably a little higher. But the main event delivered in my opinion, so worth watching.

This is really random, but going back & watching some early 90's stuff...I forgot how much I used to love Rick Steiner. Scott Steiner was fun too & I was a super mark for the Frankensteiner but I completely forgot about Rick Steiner playing the role of the "powerhouse" of the team. You think about it nowadays with how big Scotty got & it's pretty crazy. But Scott Steiner used to hit belly-to-belly suplexes on people like Vader or Abdullah the Butcher. Fuckin' crazy! Also, watching some of their work in Japan, especially with the Road Warriors...those guys didn't have a whole lot of pace. HA! I think the very first move of the six-man that I watched was a double-underhook suplex which was promptly no-sold. Much like the piledriver that followed not too long after.

To be perfectly honest, and I thought this but didn't say it in the Shawn Michaels thread as well, I'm not sure if I could make a top 100 list period let alone if John Cena would be on it. Pick any of the numbers on the list, say the twenties or the fifties...what is going to make say #56 worse than #55? Or #55 better than #56. How do those reasons make him better/worse than #54 or #57? It would just be impossible. And on top of that, how many of the guys on my list would be on there just because I'm a mark? I'm not going to make a fuckin' top 100 list w/out King Kong Bundy or The Great Muta on it...and if it's a list where guys like Matt Hardy or Christian are on it, I don't think I want to make it anyway. Waste of time.

I'm going to be completely honest: WWE Monday Night RAW sucks. It's bad television. It has been that way for at least a year, sans one or two moments, which don't make up for the ridiculous amount of time given to us that is just terrible programming but I would argue it has been that way since about 2005. That being said, the one constant question that comes up over the years is "if it sucks, why do you watch it?" and then people/posters try to make comparisons to other television shows like it's the same thing. "If Will & Grace sucks, would you keep watching it?" It's not the same thing. Will & Grace doesn't dictate, control and influence the ENTIRE industry that it is in. You know why, even when I know that it will be bad, that I continue to tune-in to WWE Monday Night RAW, without fail, damn near every single week? Because I am a wrestling fan and, like it or not, RAW dictates the wrestling world. It is the wrestling show. The A-show from the A-company. Without RAW, you're out of the bubble for a week. If I miss RAW, I don't feel like my opinion is as valid around the internet on various message forums. Without RAW, a lot of the podcasts and radio shows that I listen to don't make as much sense or are talking about things that I didn't see. Without RAW, I always feel like I'm a week behind and can't catch up until I watch RAW. Also, there's always the possibility, even if it seems to get slimmer and slimmer over the years, that WWE does something incredible that you don't want to miss live. I missed the C.M. Punk shoot interview last summer when it happened live and I kicked myself for missing it for quite some time. I had to watch it later on YouTube and it wasn't the same. I missed the immediate excitement over it and all my friends talking excitedly about it. Even just that first initial fifteen minute rush that came post-show, I hated myself for fucking up. I saw the debut of The Nexus live and it was great. I don't want to miss moments like those, when they happen live, regardless of how it plays out down the road. I have been watching wrestling since, oh, 1987 or so I guess. I have been posting/talking about wrestling on-line since the end of 1998. Over that time, from 1987 to today, I have seen a lot of wrestling. WCW, ECW, TNA, AWA, NWA, Mid-South, Smoky Mountain, Memphis, AJPW, NJPW, CMLL, AAA, NOAH, FMW, XPW, Shimmer, SMASH, shit from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's... you name it. The one constant is that RAW will be on TV on Monday night and for better or worse, most wrestling fans will be watching it. THAT is why I watch RAW.

His selling was so bad it was business-exposing.

I seem to recall kind things being said about Jeff Hardy when he was still in WWE. Nowadays, I think it's just John Cena though.

at least successful fall back careers in writing doubtlessly await them Nope.

Oh man, I don't wish ill-will on anyone but if that comes to fruition, I will definitely laugh.

The wrestlers texted him. They said they wanted to work a different match. The VERY FIRST THING THE PROMOTER SAID, was "well, I have to pay you less then." That's what the entire argument was over. Had he agreed to pay them the same price, none of that convo happens. And we'll never know if they would have worked if they still got the $475. And we'll never know if the promoter would have really sent them money "for their time" if they didn't show up at all, but history seems to indicate that would be unlikely. I think the wrestlers were just looking to fuck him & rip him off. They were certainly trying to take advantage of him. But it was most definitely about the money. And apparently you know this guy personally so you can't see the forest from the trees. I hope the wrestlers get blackballed over this but it's just another scummy wrestling story to add to the list and it's almost always about pay. Who else thinks it is about the money? Why or why not?

No, my point is he's full of shit and it was definitely about the money.