Coffey

Other than a few rare examples, like James Storm, Bobby Roode & Eric Young, there's not a lot of people that are stars because of TNA. Bully Ray has done a good job of rejuvenating his career. AJ Styles I reckon is more successful and famous because of TNA. But then you have guys like Samoa Joe that went to TNA and just fell completely off and in 2005, he was in the conversation with a lot of people for the best active wrestler. I think Gail Kim has improved too, but she was decent the first-go-round in TNA and after how bad her last WWE stint was, it might just be because it's a refreshing change of pace. I think the talent is there, roster wise, but if people don't want to see the match, it doesn't really matter how good (or bad) it turns out to be. A MOTYC only matters if people actually see it. Austin Aries, Bobby Roode, Magnus.. there's people there that I want to see. But they're mixed in with the D-Von's & Zema Ion's of the roster so I just sort of become apathetic.

Which therefore means you would take the stance that both Sheamus & Wade Barrett are made, right? Because I can't get on board with that. Even with Sheamus winning the Royal Rumble this year and having a World Heavyweight Championship match at Wrestlemania, he seems like an afterthought. Wade Barrett, it's tough to say because he got hurt, really. I guess he might have been on his way, but he certainly, in my opinion, wasn't on the cusp. It just feels like Cena is leaps and bounds above pretty much everyone, sans maybe C.M. Punk. Everyone else is just sort of there. I can't really buy that at least some of that doesn't fall onto Cena himself.

It doesn't. I actually think he's really good. But the "you can't wrestle" chants came from somewhere. And regardless of if wrestling is fake or not, you're still trying to sell the illusion. People don't buy tickets to be reminded 24/7 that it's "fake."

I think the problem is that he doesn't pull, actually, but whatever it doesn't matter. He also takes a Rock Bottom on his ass, which physically I don't even see how that's possible but it seems like it would definitely make it hurt more. Cena is definitely not the most crisp in his execution of stuff, which is where I think the "you can't wrestle" stuff comes from.

Well maybe they should when they don't have any guys. You can't bring back Triple H, The Undertaker, Shawn Michaels & The Rock forever to sell your shows.

OK, I don't think you understand what I'm asking, not when the first names listed are Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle, whom were obviously already stars well before John Cena showed up. I could actually argue that they made him, really. Has John Cena ever made anyone? Wade Barrett is still a nobody. RVD was big before Cena. The Miz is in a hole. C.M. Punk I can see an argument being made for. Umaga is a good one, actually. Shawn Michaels was one of the best EVER before Cena was even in WWE... The only person that really comes to mind that Cena has even partially tried with is Zack Ryder and he's a fuckin' jobber going nowhere. As far as The Miz is concerned, Cena KILLED him. That dude is done. The PPV where it was basically a 2-vs-1 Handicap hardcore match where Cena was beatdown for 20 minutes by both Alex Riley AND The Miz only for him to no-sell it all, slap on his lazy STF and have The Miz tap out instantly? The Miz, from going to winning in the Main Event of Wrestlemania last year to barely making the card this year? That's pretty much the exact opposite of what I'm looking for. Cena has killed that dude. And no one took him seriously going into his 'Mania match either because Cena just dismisses anything anyone ever says and smiles, the same shit he's been doing to The Rock the whole time. Cena's idea of being "serious" is reverting back into white rapper mode and throwing out gay jokes...

As long as John Cena has been on top of WWE, has he ever made anyone? Has anyone ever even benefit from being in a feud with him?

Not even just heel authority figures: I wish wrestling would do away with on-air authority figures altogether. No more GM, CEO, COO, President, etc. Hell, it was terrible in WCW just when they mentioned "the powers that be." It's just another thing that has become a staple over the years. I remember President Jack Tunney, but he didn't eat up massive amounts of time from the shows. Not like how WWE is nowadays. Holy shit. Another thing I wish they would get rid of is having cameras backstage. I'm not sure when that started but as a viewer, we should never be able to see the promo sets, or Gorilla position or guys standing in the background of a hallway during a promo and shit. I *hate* that. Either put a guy in front of a drop screen, or put him in the damn ring. Now the stupid GM's have offices and shit and it's terrible.

I kind of soured on Chris Jericho initially after reading his book. I remember specifically him talking about Scott Hall not knowing how to do a Roll-up finisher or something and it really made me mad. I mean, Scott Hall was wrestling as the Diamond Studd in WCW in like 1991. He worked before that for like five or six years too. Then AFTER that as Razor Ramon and then finally Scott Hall in the nWo and he was a pretty damn good wrestler...but Jericho wanted me, as a reader, to believe that sometime in 1997 or so Scott Hall didn't know how to do a roll-up finisher out of the Razor's Edge? Bullshit.

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been any sort of Jericho project? I think I'm willing to re-watch most of his stuff.

He has had some good material and he has had some bad material. I am not sure how much of it was him and how much of it was WWE writing. I remember some terrible Planet of the Apes promotion, that resulted in Chris Jericho having apes throw cream pies in Stephanie McMahon's face. I also remember like ten years after the fact, when Austin and Rock weren't even active performers anymore, trying to brag about beating them both in one night. Which I'm sure a lot of the audience didn't even remember. But none of that stuff is matches, which is more what I want to talk about. The actual bell-to-bell parts of Chris Jericho.

I would say so. While people were shitting on the likes of Goldberg and Kevin Nash, the people being praised were Guerrero, Benoit & Jericho. I have no issue with Benoit or Guerrero from an in-ring perspective, when looking at the whole body of work. Jericho though, I don't think he passes the test. To me, I don't know, I don't want to undersell him either, but I think he's "a good hand." I agree with Loss in his assessment here: I'm sort of surprised that anyone agreed with me but this forum is pretty good about that. I don't think Jericho is bad, it's just that his name comes up whenever people talk about great workers and sometimes when even talking about the best workers and that's just ridiculous to me. If he was never even the best guy in his company in various companies throughout various years, how can he be in that conversation, ya know? Also, as far as matches are concerned from this thread so far: Chris Jericho Vs. Juventud Guerrera, WCW Superbrawl (2/22/98) Chris Jericho Vs. The Rock, WWF No Mercy (10/21/01) Chris Jericho Vs. Kane, WWF RAW (09/30/02)

Perhaps this should be its own topic, but I am of the perspective that from an in-ring standpoint Chris Jericho is as overrated if not more so than Lance Storm. For years I have heard and read people talk about how he's a great worker and I think somewhere along the way it just sort of became accepted as a fact due to it becoming the general consensus (at least in my mind). However going back lately and watching a lot of Jericho, to me his best stuff was all done via vignettes and promos, not in the ring. He's not bad, mind you. I would say pretty damn consistent and even has a lot of above average matches. But when looking at his whole body of work that I have seen, Japan, ECW, WCW & WWF, he's just not in that top echelon for me that a lot of others seem to place him in. Maybe it is a matter of having my expectations too high because of hype. As an example, I went back and watched him in the Super J Cup and he seems green and sloppy. I go back and watch him in WCW and he's pretty much just a comedy character (although he still did some good stuff with the likes of Mysterio, Malenko and those guys). In WWF, he was always carried by a Benoit-type character (in my opinion) and I think his best stuff was tags. The one big thing I remember was his WWF match with Rob Van Dam that he was so high on and then he flipped out when he went on-line and read that it wasn't as highly praised as he thought it should have been. Actually, as a collective can you guys compose a list of say, oh, five Chris Jericho matches that are must-see matches? Preferably singles bouts, not tags. I'll re-watch them as I'm willing to have my opinion be persuaded. CHRIS JERICHO RECOMMENDED MATCHES TO RE-WATCH: Chris Jericho Vs. Juventud Guerrera, WCW Superbrawl (2/22/98) Chris Jericho Vs. The Rock, WWF No Mercy (10/21/01) Chris Jericho Vs. Kane, WWF RAW (09/30/02)

I don't know why they didn't have Jerry Lawler instead of Michael Hayes on that episode. Especially because they had an entire segment devoted solely to Andy Kaufman. DDP sort of made sense, because they talked about Rodman, Malone & Jay Leno. Roddy Piper, of course, could talk about Mr. T. Michael Hayes didn't really provide too much to this episode.

So you watched a match in fast-forward going into it looking for flaws? How can you ever enjoy ANY match that way? Actually, come to think of it, I don't think you're ever going to like a match ever again with that eye of scrutiny, man. Never talk good about a match again, cause someone will rip it apart in some way just to be contrary.

Me too, man. It's my Match-of-the-Year so far, although I know we're only in March. It was really damn good though.

I don't know, man. I'm not a real big Dave Meltzer fan, but I just watched that match and it was pretty incredible. I marked out five or six times.

Sucks to hear about Kharma. On a more positive note, Johnny Sorrow's radio voice is awesome.

Well, I mean, I'm not sure. I could wager a guess, which would be something about involving the thin roster and not having any stars, but really I just don't know. Granted that is probably a rhetorical question anyway. No one there really entices me to make a purchase. I think Kevin Steen is better than anyone in the World Title match and he's just slopped on at the end in an "also including!" sentence. I like Michael Elgin too but I don't know how good he is against guys that he can't just man-handle. Which I guess isn't a problem in ROH since the World Champion is under 6' & I like the Briscoes but I don't want to watch All Night Express, Worlds Greatest Tag Team or the Young Bucks work. So, welp. If I'm being honest, I don't even know who Shane Haste & Mikey Nicholls are. I'm hoping that Steen just beats Davey for the title and then ROH turns a corner. Who knows when, or if, that will happen though.

From left to right it is Roderick Strong, Davey Richards & Eddie Edwards. They do all look generic as fuck though. Night One - Friday March 30th at 8pm ROH World Title Davey Richards vs. Eddie Edwards vs. Roderick Strong The Icon vs. The Prodigy Lance Storm vs. Mike Bennett Proving Ground Match The Briscoes vs. Team MDK (Shane Haste & Mikey Nicolls) Miami Street Fight The Young Bucks vs. The All Night Express Other talent include Kevin Steen, Michael Elgin, Jay Lethal, TJ Perkins, The New Combination, Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team, Kyle O'Reilly, Adam Cole, talent from Chikara and more. Night Two - Saturday March 31 at 2pm ROH World Tag Team Titles The Briscoes vs. Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team Tornado Tag Rules The Young Bucks vs. The All Night Express Other talent include Kevin Steen, The House Of Truth, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Jay Lethal, TJ Perkins, The New Combination, Kyle O'Reilly, Adam Cole, talent from Chikara and more. Pretty sure Night 1 is the same day as the $2 Dragon Gate USA show with Low-Ki Vs. PAC in the main event though.

This might be one of the most, if not THE most ridiculous threads that I have ever seen. I feel like I've stumbled across a troll forum. I have been laughing pretty hard though, which I needed, so carry-on.

Because...it's not just that minute long segment? It's everything else added together and then that on top too.

I seen it as a platform entirely used for a one-liner that Michael Cole said on Smackdown last Friday: "So you're saying all Harts are full of air?" But WHY does it have to happen at all? Can you explain that, logically for me? Remember that WWE is a publicly traded company too.

This is actually genius because I think it sums up exactly why I feel the way that I do. I'm tired of hearing the arguments pimped that I just have rose-colored glasses or am waxing nostalgic because I thought things used to be better.

Oh, absolutely. I like Paul Heyman, actually. I was a big fan of ECW. I thought he was great at hiding weaknesses and exploiting strengths. It just popped into my head when the main event finished last night. Those ECW matches had heat and emotion too. Say what you want about the ECW mutants in the crowd but at least they cared. If ROH is trying to draw in fans based on ring work alone they're doing things drastically wrong because I would say that the ring work right now is one of the biggest hindrances to the company as a whole. It's a bunch of guys trying to one-up one another by seeing who can do the most ridiculous shit. The last PPV had a top rope Superplex onto a guard rail for a damn 2-count!