JerryvonKramer

OJ, I'm sorry but this isn't the best post you've ever made. It's completely disinguous. You know as well as anyone that Flair worked spot title defenses in Japan where -- just like Harley Race, Terry Funk, Jack Brisco and Dory before him -- he did what was asked of him and worked longer technical matches. Some excellent ones too. He was over perfectly fine in that role (as much as any of the other NWA champs) and carried himself as the absolute epitome of the NWA champion -- through and through. Look up "NWA Champion" in a text book and you might just see a picture of Ric Flair in Japan about to defend the belt against Jumbo. Come on now. Dory was always going to be more over than him when he'd worked there 15+ years and worked numerous blood feuds against the likes of The Sheik, Abby, Bruiser Brody, Hansen and so on. God knows how many matches with Baba etc. To say Flair "didn't wash" with Japanese fans or that he didn't know how to work for them is ... basically ridiculous. Before 1991, when did Flair work New York exactly? Do you think he wasn't over as the heel champion in 1992? Royal Rumble 1992 is still brought up all the time by fans as the best ever version of that event. It was Flair, in New York, over as the top heel. What more do you really want from him? He didn't know how to act during that run? Come on. Was the post a troll OJ? Be honest.

Actually, if I'm having to argue why Flair was more charismatic than Bob Backlund or Dory Jr, I think I have to draw a line. That's the point where the discussion has become too absurd. If other people want to discuss that great, I'm done with it.

Super strong booking. Backlund killed everyone for close to 6 years and was a babyface. I think Dory ate like 2 pinfalls in 20 years in Japan. That crowd also respects tradition, history, titles etc. more, and Dory was NWA champ, had legendary matches with Baba and Inoki, and held quite a few major titles for Baba down the years. Flair never did more than the odd title defense in Japan, never had a sustained run really. And it stands to reason that he'd be less over in NY just as Hogan was less over down south. It wasn't his area. And he was still pretty over there as a heel in 91-2 despite being booked pretty weakly for a top guy in terms of wins etc.

Charisma, expressiveness, personality in the ring, aura and other such "intangibles". Overness is not necessarily taken into account, although it can be seen as proof of connection to the audience. Bruno at MSG for example. Or, one might argue, Kobashi in 93-5. But it doesn't always tell you the whole story. Like Sting in 89-90 was very over and, in my view, failed to live up to the reaction himself. HOWEVER, the reaction in the first place for Sting is some evidence of his intangible qualities. He stands out from other guys with less star quality to an extent. In the cases of guys like Backlund and Dory, I'd point to very strong booking and their wrestling ability, rather than intangibles, as the reason for their overness.

I've given Misawa his due for selling and his great matches. What this boils down to is that I don't see Misawa (6) as comparable to a Flair, Hogan, Bruno, or Austin (all 10s) for intangibles. I see Kobashi (8) and Choshu (9) both as being closer to that level but not quite. As there is not long left, all I can suggest is for everyone to come to their own conclusions. I've provided the reasons for mine.

If those have been low balled, who do you think has been highballed? What you have to grant is that I've given people maximum transparency and with that clarity over what exactly you might quibble on.

As an additional point, there are points during the peak Misawa run circa 93, 94, 95 where Kobashi feels like he is more over than Misawa judging from the crowd noise and "Kobashi" chants. Or at least that's how it has come across to me. I think that is partly because of that fact that (a la Martel, Steamboat etc.), Kobashi works from underneath building towards a comeback. He's just a classic wrestling babyface. And that's going to get over. But I also think it's because of his expressiveness as well. Misawa is more in the mould of Jumbo: a stoic, dominant ace. That will get over too, but I think the sense of inevitability of it all sometimes hurts both of their pops. Kobashi has the benefit of a greater sense of contingency a lot of the time. I've been watching matches of his when he's the ace too, and that still comes across in his matches. The sense of danger and the unknown.

Just two words for consideration here: Bob Backlund. He was very over for most of his run, and I can honestly say the guy deserves the Intangibles rating I gave him of 1. And I've seen him get a standing ovation at MSG. Dory Funk Jr was very over in many different places, including Japan. And he was one of the highest drawing NWA champions. He has an intangibles rating of ... 0. No one argued with either of those ratings. And no one who has watched the footage would argue that either guy was over. So, I don't necessarily buy that popularity = charisma / intangibles. Obviously, I think Misawa's intangibles rating of 6 is fair. And I'm also going to give Kobashi a higher score for it, for the reasons I've mentioned in that thread.

Don't be as "generous as possible." Just be realistic. Was Misawa as a junior even one of the 50 best juniors ever? If no, does he really deserve a +1. Misawa "worked" the Tiger Mask II gimmick, but he wasn't nearly as successful or over as Sayama and I've never seen Misawa's run as Tiger Mask ever described as anything other than disappointment. Is anyone voting for Misawa as #1 putting a ton of weight into his Tiger Mask run? Misawa wasn't just the ace of a promotion. He is often cited by hardcore fans as the "Best" ace and his "promotion" is often pointed to as the absolute pinnacle of in ring work. And Misawa's time as the Ace is specifically pointed to as the absolute PEAK of the "best in ring promotion" of all time. It seems like that last point should mean more than his ability to put on a mask or his time as the 75th best junior heavyweight. The Tiger Mask run and his ability to work as a junior are feathers in his cap and I'm giving him credit for them. See Chad's recent thread on this very topic: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33392-the-burning-question/ They are not central to his case but just one itty party of it which translates as about 2/60 or if you want 3.333333% of his entire case. There are no shenanigans about the multiple markets. It's in the A category because it -- theoretically -- shows adaptability to get over in different places. It's not just a case of geography but of different styles of promotion, booking philosophies and crowds. It takes one thing to get over in the old Vince Sr WWF and at MSG, another thing entirely to get over in a work heavy promotion like Crockett, another thing again in Memphis, another thing again in Midsouth, another thing again in Giant Baba's promotion with its sometimes stony faced fans or in Inoki's promotion where the crowds are used to seeing more technical matches. The +3 isn't just arbitrary, it is meant to be saying something about the worker's ability to connect with some very different sets of fans. Of course, Abby didn't really do a lot to change from place to place, but then maybe his act is "universal", in which case all credit to him. He had that act and he got over all those places, Terry Taylor didn't. It's not like I have some insane desire to rank Abby highly. I just give credit where it is due. Just a couple more weeks now ...

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-80-clash-of-the-champions-20/ Chad and Parv review the Clash of the Champions TBS 20th Anniversary Special from September 1992. [01:36] Wrestling Observer roundup: wild rumours, Ron Simmons wins the world title, Meltzer goes to Japan, and the 1992 readers send in their top moments, matches and workers in TBS history. [48:44] Review of Clash of the Champions 20: let's play spot the WCW executives, TBS memories packages, Brian Pillman's heel turn, the mysterious return of Butch Reed, and the laser eyes of Sting and Jake Roberts. [2:05:05] End of Show Awards

To me it still doesn't tell me anything. I'm not being facetious or anything, it just genuinely doesn't. I've thought about this many times before about writers. Some have strong late periods, Bob Dylan, WB Yeats, Milton would all spring to mind. I don't see the late work telling us much about the early work. I really don't. They capture their minds at a different point in their life. An old man could not have written Easter Rising or Times They Are A-Changing, a young man could not have written The Tower or Love and Theft. Similarly, other writers, William Wordsworth springs to mind, have really poor late careers, and similarly it doesn't really tell you much about his earlier work other than that he became a massive Tory in later life.

Found myself oddly affected by this and even teared up. Pretty sure it was Dibiase in GCW in 84 in that clip.

I guess the underlying problem I have is that in Matt's formulation the wrestler's "smarts" seems like an unchanging unified constant. But people change over time. They lose motivation or get lazy or complacent. Or maybe they start hotheaded and gain wisdom with experience. They might adopt different personal beliefs or philosophies. It's not like magically transporting the same brain to a different body. Some guys might be smart during their prime and stupid in post prime. Others might be smarter later in their careers.

See I'd argue he started doing it as far back as 1996.

Like look at Flair, he's constantly telling us that after he couldn't really go anymore, he became more of a gimmick worker and pared back to like three moves. On the face of it, it's smart. And he did get over and adapted enough to stay on TV until he literally couldn't be in the ring any more. To me, looking at old man Flair reveals precisely ... nothing about Ric Flair from 1985. Like nothing at all, they might as well be two different guys.

Also I really do disagree with this idea that a worker at 50 can tell you something about the worker at 28, doesn't tell me anything about the worker at 28 only what he's like at 50. Again I think of real sports. Like who cares what Thierry Henry was like at 35? Doesn't matter, it's what he was like when he was scoring shitloads of goals for Arsenal that matters. Who cares if Kobasho was excessive in 2004? He was awesome in 1993. Etc One of those hard philosophical differences between some of us it seems.

I think the big difference is that the net result of the bad years for you is like -30 whereas for me it is just 0. To me you can't take away from greatness once it is achieved. You see it in sports all the time. Lionel Messi could go crap in the next ten years or never kick another football but his goat case is made. He can only add to it, he can't take away from it. That is how I see it.

@Grimmas: Well you know I more than most would cosign almost all of that, but to me not ranking him because of that feels like throwing the baby out with the bath water. As in, you're throwing away 12 years of a perfectly good career just because you didn't care for his final few years. It seems disproportionately harsh. This is what I mean about negatives over-indexing. Will you be holding Greg Valentine's completely underwhelming WCW run and decade plus of Indy obscurity (during which I don't think he produced many if any memorable matches) against him in the same way? This is bizarro world if I'm the guy defending Michaels, ha ha.

My issue is, what if they turn out like Kurt Angle and go from really good to the dirt worst? If we did this poll in 98, Shawn Michaels would be on my list. Doing it in 2016 he is not, due to his awful run post comeback. This is why I'm not voting for someone in their prime. For me, the post-prime does nothing to diminish what he achieved before that which why HBK is making my list. I'm convinced that negatives over-index in our thinking.

The level of stardom isn't being rewarded, all that is being rewarded is the ability to get over in different places. I mean let's get down to it: who is really affected by this when it comes to the Misawas / Kobashis? Abby is so far below both that he's not the fairest comparison. Here are the guys currently above Misawa according to BIGLAV: Nick Bockwinkel Jumbo Tsuruta Genchiro Tenryu Stan Hansen Terry Funk Ric Flair They are all close in the 6 ratings, generally scoring 7-10 in each one, apart from in the A category. There, Funk, Flair, Hansen, and Bockwinkel have an advantage over their Japanese counterparts. Look at the rating category again: "Ability to work different styles / roles" I've been as generous as I possibly could be to Misawa. I mean, he gets a whole TWO points just for his Tiger Mask run: +1 ability to work as junior +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II) +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work tags People like Funk, Flair and Bock worked a lot more different types of matches than Misawa was asked to in his career. They worked all sorts of gimmick matches (+1), they worked both face and heel (+1), and they worked in many more markets and got over in them (+3) AND they worked tags, worked as champions / aces and so on. You could say: "yeah, but that's not fair! Flair and Funk were NWA champions and Bock was the AWA champion, OF COURSE they travelled and got over!" And I say: "yeah, it was them and not anyone else, and they should get additional credit for it" If you want to know the origin of the A category, it was actually the Wrestling Culture on Flair vs. Funk vs. Lawler where Dylan built the case for Funk essentially on points in the A category. I think Chad is more the sort of guy who'd build the case from the G category, and the the main issue he has is that he doesn't see the A category as being equally important. I see all six categories as being roughly of equal importance with the privoso that B is the first tie-breaker and G is the second tie-breaker.

Only their screams of terror in three dozen juice brawls.

You'll notice that Abby didn't get any bonus points for being able to work gimmick matches (or technically, or "normal" matches). He was a big star with a long career who worked in many many different places and was over in all of them. His score reflects that. Also, Abby's act was always the same, but he seemed to get over everywhere with it, and so ... That means it is universal in a way that Misawa specifically isn't. Like people struggle to "get" Misawa sometimes, we've seen that. Abby gave Japanese kids nightmares just like he gave little Will from Texas nightmares. I give credit where it is due.

If you enjoyed this one, give me any ideas for future ones. Was thinking WWE.com's top 50 talkers next. There will be more of these after GWE is over and Mania stuff has died down. Also for newer listeners, if you look in the archives, we did do previous shows on top 50 heels and top 100 matches before you die too.

Abdullah the Butcher Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 7 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan, Australia) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. The Sheik, 2. Dory Funk Jr, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Brusier Brody, 5. Giant Baba, 6. Jumbo Tsuruta, 7. Mil Mascaras / Dos Caras, 8. Dick Slater, 9. Billy Robinson, 10. Harley Race, 11. Antonio Inoki, 12. Hulk Hogan, 13. Tatsumi Fujinami, 14. Carlos Colon, 15. Wahoo McDaniel, 16. Cacus Jack, 17. Sabu, 18. Mark Lewin, 19. Manny Fernandez, 20. Dusty Rhodes Variety = 20 opponents = 10 28 Adrian Adonis Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 3 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 1979-85 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("The Adorable One") +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (PNW, WWF, AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Buddy Rose, 2. Bob Backlund, 3. The High Flyers, 4. Hulk Hogan, 5. Anotnio Inoki, 6. Tatsumi Fujinami, 7. Yoshiaki Yatsu, 8. Dick Murdoch, 9. Jack and Jerry Brisco, 10. Andre, 11. Bob Orton Jr, 12. Roddy Piper, 13. Paul Orndorff, 14. Tito Santana Variety = 14 opponents = 7 31

I don't think several of them even exist on tape to my knowledge. You can intersperse newspaper headlines, footage of him cutting promos with the gold. And then have like numbers. ONE Headline of Flair beating Dusty for title Footage of Flair in Mid-Atlantic studio cutting promo with the gold. Footage of him beating a jobber with a figure-four TWO Starrcade 83 Footage of Harley promos Footage of Flair with injury THREE Footage of Flair beating Kerry Von Erich Footage of Flair in claw Footage of Flair in Texas FOUR Footage of Dusty cutting Hard Times promo Footage of Flair in fur coat Footage of Dusty in fur coat Footage of Flair beating Dusty .... You get the picture.