JerryvonKramer

For the purposes of this I'm not taking drawing into account, only the ability to get over in different markets. Box office isn't really part of the metric. It's about work and getting over through that work. It does hurt guys who stayed in one or two places even if they did so and were phenomenally successful, no doubt.

I was under the impression that he was saying every person not on the list would get a -1.

I'd agree with this as well. The other way it almost seems like the guy is being punished for being #100. The other way with 0 for #100 is not a punishment when everybody that isn't on the list gets -1. Obviously if you drop the -1 for people not making a list, then 0 for 100 makes no sense. However the original way is not a punishment. It is. I'm not voting for Lucha guys, as you know. I really like Negro Casas, and wouldn't want him actively punished by me not selecting him. If 20 other guys don't vote for Casas, he's on -20 in one system, and 0 in the other. So he's getting punished.

I'm perfectly happy to take the points away from Tenryu.

I disagree only insomuch as I see a lot of Rick Martel or Ricky Steamboat or even Jack Brisco in Kobashi and on that basis could see him getting over anywhere. Martel and Brisco weren't exactly talkers. Neither was Steamer come to think of it. There might be things specific to Japan that helped Kobashi get over there, but that is also true of -- let's say Jim Breaks in England -- but I still think Breaks could have gotten over in the US or Japan based on his natural "intangibles".

I'd just point out that I had Misawa capping out at 12 opponents for "variety" originally, trying to represent this knock against him, and it was quickly argued by a number of people that he can easily make 20 "memorable opponents" and max out for the variety score. Which, if you consider that so much of his peak years are locked up with facing the same small pocket of guys over and over again, is actually pretty impressive.

I suspect that he'll be a lock for top 5, and probably even top 3. And most of what you see is a vocal minority.

The fact that it's a stretch really tells the story. Misawa was over in two places: AJ and NOAH and that's not enough for a +1. Tenryu was over in AJ, NJ, and a pile of Japanese super-indies, so that's a +1. Hansen was over in at least 4 different US territories, plus PR, NJ and AJ, so that's +3. It counts because what it takes to get over at Vince Sr's MSG, on GCW's TBS show, Verne's AWA crowds, in front of the Colon's hardcore Puerto Rican crowd, Baba's crowd and Inoki's crowd are six very different things. And Hansen got over in every setting. I value that for a GWE case. Misawa might not have gotten the chance to do that, but GWE isn't the place for what ifs.

I'd prefer that. 1 for 100, 0 for not making someone's list.

I don't agree with -1 for not making someone's list.

Some related reading: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/27872-learning-to-love-dory/ My impression is that he was over as a legendary former NWA champion who had go toe to toe with Inoki and Baba, acquitted himself very well against all comers in the 1975 Champion's Carnival and then cemented that legacy battling the evil Sheik / Abby combo and then the fearsome Brody / Hansen combo. He also won the NWA International title a couple of times, now one part of the triple crown. So I don't think it was purely because of association with Terry. They respect tradition and hierarchy in Japan, and Dory was always announced last.

Vader vs. Antonio Inoki (1/4/96) Even though at this point in his life Inoki had awesome grey silver fox flecks in his hair and a general look of experience and wisdom in his face, I still hate the boring fuck unreservedly and am readying myself to see him get his ass kicked. It's only thirty years too late. Got to give him this though: he's in good nick for a 52 year old. The same cannot be said for Vader here, who is in bad shape. I like to imagine as Vader is throwing the table on top of Inoki He's shouting *thats for that fucking 1980 Bob Backlund match* *And THAT'S for the interminable broadway with Dory* *And that's for every time you've made Parv fall asleep and wake up in a pool of his own drool, you boring fuck!* This is cathartic. Of course, this also has the holy shit release German suplex in it. To me this match is the epitome of being memorable without being "great". ***1/2

Interesting tidbit someone told me today:

Shinya Hashimoto vs. Genichiro Tenryu (8/1/98) This bout is quite similar to the two awesome Flair vs. Wahoo matches from Houston in 85, as well as Flair vs. Tenryu from SWS in 92. All matches I gave ****1/2 to, and all marked by being massive chop fests. I have this a little shade below those simply because the insertion of Flair into a match worked along these parameters adds quite a few dimensions to those exchanges, take him away -- and we can see it directly here with the replacement of him with Hash vs. Tenryu -- and what you are left with is a match that can border on the one dimensional. However, I am a mark for insane stiffness and, aside from Flair and Wahoo, there aren't many who can dish them out like Tenryu and Hash. I enjoyed some of Hash's desperation when he was hitting the forearm smashes. I mean, if you look at it, it's a spot Ax and Smash from Demolition used to do, but ramp up the intensity to these levels and it becomes compelling. I was also impressed with some of Tenryu's selling efforts here, I've been critical of his stony lack of emotion at times in the past, but I think Hash was hitting him that hard that he was more or less forced to sell the pain here. Cool match that I'm glad to have seen. If you haven't watched it and dig Flair vs. Wahoo or Flair vs. Tenryu, I'd recommend checking this one out. ****

I've just asked this on Twitter, but why not ask here too: I've seen a bit of him watching 90s NJ stuff recently, but where's his jacket? I keep looking out for it. Basically OJ, I'm curious about the origins of your screen name.

The word missing from my post above is emotion. Yes, we all know about Japanese stoicism and Misawa as the embodiment of that, but Kobashi I'd argue is so emotional as a performer that he actually transcends cultural barriers -- in a way Misawa doesn't.

Will be reviewing this match on AJ Excite later tonight, just wanted to say that I appreciate OJ's willingness to be a voice of critical dissent because it makes for a richer discourse. This is a great example of it in action.

One might ask the same question about Terry Funk in 1972 when Dory Funk Jr was undoubtedly the NWA champion and top star. More extreme example, but you get the point. Kobashi is just so much more expressive with his facials. He's like a living cartoon. I think his character work is bigger and louder than Misawa's. I have Misawa as a 6, I think Kobashi might be an 8. I also think from about 92-97 he was just as over as Misawa was. At least based on crowd reactions and chants etc.

Assuming that Kobashi will equal Misawa in terms of base, great matches and variety (10 for all), I think he actually has every chance of finishing higher than him on my list, because he undoubtedly has better intangibles and a comparably long peak period.

My suggestion was to produce different lists, not just one overall list. For example, "of those that voted for luchadores, these were the results" etc., but that was shot down pretty quickly.

To be honest I don't really know what to do with WAR or NOAH. I've given Tenryu the places he worked as as part of WAR, but not for it as a promotion in its own right. Maybe SWS should be downgraded similarly. With NOAH who is really affected by it? Generally guys don't get points for working two different promotions, but will start to get points from 3-4 different ones. No one has had points for working stuff like Global or SMW or individual indies. If someone worked a lot of indies, they might get "Indies" listed. But they are not worth the same as working even the smallest of the old territories, like Portland say. You'll also notice a lot of American workers just get "Japan" listed without going into granular detail where. Not an exact science tbh.

After the first Abby-Sheik match in 1977, from what I've seen Dory was always very over with the All Japan crowd and always got a good reaction. Terry was, of course, a superstar, but Dory was basically as over as anyone. If I had to make an analogy, if Terry was someone like Hulk Hogan in WWF 85, Dory was JYD -- that is, phenomenally over in his own right. My impression is that this continues to be the case right through about 1987. After that, when Dory starts tagging with Baba and essentially transitions into being an old man wrestler in the early 90s, he doesn't get the same sort of reactions.

Hansen was able to get over in WWF, GCW, AWA, WCW, and Puerto Rico as well as in the two biggest Japanese promotions. The +3 isn't arbitrary. This does give an advantage to guys who travelled vs. Guys who homesteaded. Generally, I haven't given guys points for working both AJPW and NOAH. Tenryu gets a bonus point because he worked NJ, AJ, SWS and FMW.

Ratings: AJ Excite should return with some force over the next couple of weeks as we have a power run towards the finish line. Six shows left.

It's worth noting that if Misawa's peak rating was extended to 08, it would put him just ahead of Hansen (tied on 50, base breaks tie) and just behind Jumbo and Tenryu. The peak rating was originally pushed to 04 because people argued for it. Because I don't want to shortchange Misawa, I will consider any arguments for him being 08. As a basis of comparison, Flair gets to 94 even though I'm sure smart fans in 95 and 96 would have considered him top thirty in the world still in 95-6. Similarly Ted is cut at 1988, even though I'm sure in Meltzer's rankings at the time he would have still been top 30 89-91. Hansen is cut at 93. Funk in 89. Race in 84. Shawn in 97. Savage in 92. These are some benchmarks to consider.