JerryvonKramer

Chad, he's maxed out, 10 for great matches, 10 for variety of opponents, 10 for base skills. He's losing his points on intangibles and ability to work different roles. It's small margins at this point. But he's effectively being hurt by the fact he didn't really travel and that he's not uber charismatic.

Sgt. Slaughter Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for outrageous bumps) = 8 Intangibles 6 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 80-91 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technically +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Bob Backland, 2. Pat Patterson, 3. Steamboat / Youngblood, 4. Iron Sheik, 5. Pedro Morales, 6. Hulkm Hogan, 7. Stan Hansen, 8. Wahoo McDaniel, 9. Andre, 10. Rick McGraw Variety = 10 opponents = 6 39 Mr Saito Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 = 7 Intangibles 3 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 80-90 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, SWCW, GCW, AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Martel / Garea, 2. Strongbows, 3. Fabulous Ones, 4. Curt / Larry Hennig, 5. Hulk Hogan, 4. Lawler / Greg Gagne, 5. Steven Keirn, 6. Mr. Wrestling II, 7. Takado / Superstrong Machine, 8. Larry Zbyszko Variety = 8 opponents = 4 28 Kerry von Erich Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 80-89 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, SWCW, GCW, AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Michael Hayes, 2. Terry Gordy, 3. Buddy Roberts, 4. Harley Race, 5. Jumbo Tsuruta, 6. Ric Flair, 7. Gino Herndandez, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. One Man Gang, Variety = 9 opponents = 4 29 Reworked ratings for Misawa, Shawn, Eddie, Vader and Hansen: Mitsuharu Misawa Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 6 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (90-04) +1 ability to work as junior +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II) +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 4 1. Jumbo, 2. Kawada, 3. Kobashi, 4. Taue, 5. Hansen, 6. Gordy, 7. Akiyama, 8. Fuchi, 9. Steve Williams, 10. Johnny Ace, 11. Takayama, 12. Morishima, 13. Ohtani, 14. Hashimoto, Yone, 15. Keiji Mutoh/Taiyo , 16. Fujinami, 17. Nakamura/Goto, 18. Hase, 19. Kensuke Sasaki, 20. Vader Variety = 20 opponents = 10 48 Shawn Michaels Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 5 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 86-97= 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Rose / Sumers, 2. , Orient Express, 3. Powers of Pain, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Rick Martel, 7. Bret Hart, 8. Razor Ramon, 9. Owen Hart, 10. The Undertaker, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Mankind, 13. Chris Jericho, 14. Kurt Angle, 15. Ric Flair, 16. Randy Orton, 17. John Cena, 18. Diesel, 19. Randy Savage, 20. Bob Backlund Variety = 20 opponents = 10 39 Eddie Guerrero Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 94-05 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Black Tiger) +1 ability to work NJ Juniors style +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, Mexico, WCW, WWE, Indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 1. Octagon, 2. El Hijo Del Santo, 3. Chris Benoit, 4. Rey Mysterio, 5. Dean Malenko, 6. Chavo Gueurrro Jr, 7. Chris Jericho, 8. DDP, 9. Kurt Angle, 10. John Cena, 11. Brock Lesnar, 11. JBL, 12. Edge, 13. Kidman, 14. Ultimo Dragon, 15. Ohtani Variety = 15 opponents = 7 43 Stan Hansen Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 79-93 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technically +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, WWF, WCW, AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Bruno Sammatino, 2. Bob Backlund, 3. Andre, 4. Giant Baba, 5. Terry Funk / Dory Funk Jr, 6. Carlos Colon, 7. Jumbo, 8. Tenryu, 9. Kawada, 10. Misawa, 11. Taue, 12. Kobashi, 13. Rick Martel, 14. Sgt. Slaughter, 15. Vader, 16. Jerry Blackwell, 17. Nick Bockwinkel, 18. Steve Williams, 19. Akiyama, 20. Curt Hennig Variety = 20 opponents = 10 50 Vader Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 7 Intangibles 7 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 86-97 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work shoot style +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WCW, Japan, Mexico, WWF, Europe) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Hansen, 2. Inoki, 3. Wanz, 4. Sting, 5. Cactus Jack, 6. Flair, 7. Hashimoto, 8. Hase / Mutoh, 9. Dustin, 10. Owen Hart, 11. Steamboat, 12. Michaels, 13. Chono, 14. Bossman, 15. Kobashi, 16. Taue, 17. Akiyama, 18. Misawa, 19. Tamura Variety = 19 opponents = 10 43 The ratings for these five guys won't change again, and it looks like Misawa will not finish top five, despite max scores in three categories.

That's a fair point, I didn't know Smarkschoice was more of a snap poll than this much more rigorous process. My impression is that people deliberate a lot on their top 5s and to a slightly lesser degree on their top 10s and 20s and then get more crap shooty beyond that, so I agree with the general principle that something should reflect that.

***** Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (12/6/89) **** Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada (2/26/89 TV) Yoshiaki Yatsu & Jumbo Tsuruta vs Toshiaki Kawada & Genichiro Tenryu (1/22/89 TV) Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu (9/15/88) ***3/4 Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu (8/29/88) Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada (9/3/89 TV) Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara vs. Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu (8/30/88) Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat (11/29/89) ***1/2 Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (10/20/89) Kick-ass team with a resume of kick-ass matches. Almost made cooler when you consider that both guys were Olympians. I am still not sure about ranking these Japanese teams though on the basis that I don't know if they are "proper" teams.

What were the other two?

My preference is to use exactly what they did in Smarkschoice, so the comparison is exact.

How was Smark's choice done?

If there's ever a This is Awesome chant during one of his matches, he could stop and refuse to continue until they shut up. Heel heat shouldn't be that hard to come by, just be a dick to the fans

Has there been a heel who has declared war on the Internet/ smart fans yet? He could smash up iPhones with a sledgehammer

Bobby Heenan Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 3/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 8 Great matches 0 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, AWA, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Lanza / Fabulous Ones, 2. Bigboss Man, 3. Ultimate Warrior, 4. Bruiser / Crusher, 5. Lord Alfred Hayes, 6. Pepper Gomez, 7. Greg Gagne Variety = 7 opponents = 3 20

Updating to add these: ***** The Great Muta vs. Hiroshi Hase (12/14/92) Manami Toyota and Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki and Dynamite Kansai (AJW 11/26/92) ****3/4 Hiroshi Hase and Kensuke Sasaki vs. Shiro Koshinaka and Takayuki Iizuka (12/13/90) Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness (6/23/07) Shinya Hashimoto vs. Riki Choshu (8/2/96)

I've just realised that the Jumbo and Yatsu team aren't nominated. I think they'd be a sneaky pick who I think might have been together longer than either Choshu / Yatsu or Jumbo / Tenryu or Tenryu / Hansen.

I'd like to nominate Jumbo and Yatsu for Tag Teams via AJ 80s set.

Hansen in AJ from about 85 on feels not just dangerous but legendary, you can almost feel the level of respect and awe from the crowd. I've been watching Vader's 92 run in WCW with WTBBP recently and he definitely doesn't have that sort of status. I will be reviewing a pile of Vader's NJ greatest hits soon, so the rating could change. Will keep this in mind.

That would put him in the top 20, which seems bonkers considering it is my list and how much I hate him. I'll have to make a call at some point. The thing is that intangibles is meant to be in-ring only. And I see a lot of Shawn's aura coming from the big money entrance, fireworks and hype. Like, I don't see him doing shit like Flair screaming in pain in a leg hold, or jawing the guy in the crowd or telling some chick his hotel room number right in the middle of a cage match, let alone the aura of a champion, etc. Or like Bruno, zero fireworks, not even entrance music, and the roof is coming off as he gears up for a comeback. Or the crowd going deathly silent when Ivan pinned him. Take away the fireworks and I don't see Shawn being able to generate that sort of energy or heat. See what I mean?

I don't really think there's any argument against that Loss. I actually wonder if there's be something to a Hase / Windham comparison. Both guys seem like the total package in terms of toolkit for me but don't have the output to make them truly top tier.

My thinking on intangibles was something like: 6 - all time great character work / mannerisms / stooging etc. 7 - as above, plus electric heat 8 - as above, but also aura and star presence 9 - as above, but also makes things feel like a bigger deal 10 - transcendent charisma / X-factor Might make it easier to help me slot guys in. Which is to say that a 6 is by no means a diss.

One little quirk of this is "when do you take the rating from"? Like Austin's intangibles of 10, for example, is clearly based on the Stone Cold run not him in USWA, WCW or as The Ringmaster. Yet other ratings take work from those other runs into account. In my mind, I've justified that sort of thing as "positive stuff counts towards the case", but it is a bit of a fudge if you think about it. I think Eddie is probably a 7 for intangibles and maybe Shawn a 4 or 5? I'm not sure if Rude is a 7. The spreadsheet will make it a lot easier for me to fiddle with scores.

Yeah pretty much, that's me saying I think his core skills are better than Taue's -- so are Barry Windham's by the way -- but output is a key metric for a reason. Taue will be a 10 for great matches and at least an 6-8 in four other categories. So even if he gets 0 in Base, which he won't, he's looking at a minimum of a 34-42, add on the 6-7 he'll get on base and he's probably getting a score that puts him over the likes of Randy Savage, Bret Hart, and Eddie. Taue might realistically finish top ten for me.

Did I say that? I don't actually think Hase can finish over Taue, isn't mathematically possible.

Bryan Danielson vs. KENTA (9/16/06) This is from ROH. Hey, at least it's not TNA. Bryan is the world champ and carrying a shoulder injury from which he's coming back. KENTA meanwhile is on an undefeated streak. I found this pretty slow going for long portions. All the elements are there: crisp work, focus on an injury and limb work, call backs, genuine strategy, big spots, a pretty hot crowd, and touches of character work from both Kenta and Bryan, the highlight probably being Bryan shouting "Fucked up? I never fuck up!" The violence also escalates as the bombs get bigger and more ambitious as the match progresses. So why do you feel there's a big "but" coming? Well, it feels like a smart fan's idea of a five star match being played out in front of me. And it probably is many smart fans' idea of a five star match. I will say that the hard elbows by Danielson in the finish are pretty disturbing in their intensity, and you buy that Kenta taps. The finish is really good. But I guess what I'm saying is that this is the wrestling equivalent of a "worthy" Oscar film, it seems designed to win awards and accolades and I'm not sure I can get behind that degree of self-consciousness. Technically, there's no flaw I can point to, the match tells a story, it is well executed, it has heat, it has intensity and a real sense of high stakes. And yet ... It left me cold. I've had meals like that at top restaurants, y'know, everything about it was technically perfect -- designed to dazzle critics and garner Michelin stars -- and yet it doesn't give you that warm feeling inside that a tub of Mac n Cheese from a shack at a street festival might. I see this as the wrestling equivalent of that meal. Probably says more about me than it, but I can't imagine myself ever watching it again or recommending it to anyone even if it was entirely successful it what it set out to achieve. **** Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness (6/23/07) This is ROH again, of course. Fans do duelling chants for both Bryan and McGuinness. The winner becomes number 1 contender for the title. Some Jim Breaks-style wrist work at the start of this from Bryan. This feels a lot more gritty than the last match with this British-style matwork. I found it a lot easier to get into Bryan's stiff and intense offense here too, the whole thing felt less self-consciously aiming for accolades. Great match if you are a mark for the European uppercut (as I am). This has a perfect mixture of stiff strikes, gritty and sick matwork, and a super hot finish with the blood. Really good stuff here. This match was good enough, and heated enough, that I could mostly ignore the sycophantic crowd and post-modern setting. ****3/4 Daniel Bryan vs. Dolphins Ziggler (10/24/10) This is in WWE, at some low-rent PPV of this era called Bragging Rights. Vicki Guerrero comes out and the crowd boo her. She introduces the IC champ Ziggler, who comes out to zero reaction. Music is awful. Bryan is the US champ. 2010 WWE crowd probably more annoying already than 2006 ROH crowd. This just felt like any other match from the past decade to me, good enough but also more or less instantly forgettable and I can guarantee you that if Chad brought this up six months down the line, I'd probably have forgotten that I'd seen it. In some ways, this had an old school feel to it, with Ziggler's larger than life selling and little touches like the ref spotting a foot on the rope in the middle of a count. But in a vacuum no aspect of it feels important or special in any way. It's just a match. For some reason I imagine it didn't feel that way at the time. Perfectly solid work but little else. *** Bryan Danielson vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (9/20/08) Back to ROH. For some reason, I get the impression this one is gonna be good. I'd really prefer this ROH stuff to have no commentary. Sorry for being such a grumpy curmudgeonly fuck, but hey, at least I'm honest about it. This was a lot more spot heavy than the previous matches. Nakajima really seems like a very spotty worker to me. This is still a pretty hot match despite that, however. Bryan is just so intense with his relentless uppercuts and the "kick his head in" spot is all kinds of American History X brutal. For sheer violence, I'm not sure how many would even be in the conversation with Bryan. Vader possibly? It's not simply stiffness a la Wahoo or Tenryu, it's all out borderline psycho violence, and it has a disturbing edge. The repeated elbows are another spot like that. I thought Bryan was really good in this match against someone I'm not that familiar with but who I assume is a two-a-penny modern NJ-type guy. He definitely has something special about him beyond the mechanical perfection of a Benoit or the flash of an AJ Styles. Which is to say, that I've always understood the hype about Bryan and he does live up to it, even in these settings I'm disposed not to like and against these basically nothing opponents. ****1/2 One other comment I want to make, and perhaps it is just a quirk of this random sampling, but going back to my Roman Reigns article, it strikes me that Bryan was booked really really strong. I mean four matches here and he won every single one by tap out. Just something to show that the general principle I was talking about in that article still applies to modern wrestling. Looking forward to more Bryan, he's a beast.

Where I think Taue is "not on the level" of the other three is in the Base rating on my scale. Where the others are clear 9/10s or 10/10s, Taue is at best a 7/10. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a list of great matches and performance in those matches as long as your arm, but that's where I think the talk comes from. I'm probably just stating the obvious. I think Taue is more obviously likable, on a human level, than Misawa or Kawada, which is why I reckon so many people feel so well disposed towards him. "Son of Baba" sounds about right. I'd be surprised if Taue finishes outside the top 20 of the combined final list. He will v. likely be in my own top 20.

In case anyone missed it, I reviewed a lot of those matches Loss mentioned here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32747-hiroshi-hase/

One thing I'll say from recent WTBBP viewing is that he has quietly had a really good 1992 up through to July. People talk about the Hollywood Blondes, but I think Austin undergoes a minor transformation before that from 91 to 92 whereby he still feels green at the start of the DA stuff while by the time of War Games, he seems really accomplished, and especially good in a tag setting. I do think it should count towards his overall case.