JerryvonKramer

I think Dylan is overly low on Ted as opposed to me being overly high. But then I guess I would say that. It's fair to say we look for different things. Although I am not entirely clear on what Dylan looks for exactly.

It boils down to you liking the puppy dog "Son of Larry" Hennig run a lot more than I did. Note I'm not saying he had better matches in WWF, but he did have a lot more star presence. He also probably did the "shot from a cannon" bump better in WWF, which could be a plus or minus depending on your perspective. I still think Curt won't make my list.

Maybe it's because sometimes they are outside in PR, but the same magical connection does not come across through the electric crowds as they do for Bruno at MSG and Philly. And this is not a knock on Colon, but that would also go for Hogan or Austin or any other very over babyface you care to name. It also won't come into my ratings much because the dial doesn't go to 11. If it did, Bruno would be the only one at 11.

I enjoyed a lot of those Hase tags and have a few more to watch. Seems like a Japanese Steiner brother to me. Which on here comes across as criticism, but I don't intend it as criticsm.

What are you talking about? All I've said is that he rides on good will and seems to escape real scrutiny. Nobody mentioned motives. McKell's point seemed pretty insightful to me as regards accounting for why.

What's that got to do with anything?

Pretty sure he has a late 70s NY run on tape. My main criticism of Patera is that he goes to the long bear hug too often. Hate that spot. Note: Backlund will likely make my 100 and do well.

Colon is more agile and has better matches to his name. Bruno has a magical connection to his audience that is not matched by any other babyface, including Colon. Johnny was objecting to the idea that Bruno could be the "poor man's" anything. I didn't feel much compelled to check out more Colon beyond the Hansen series, his flips and things were weird. But he was an effective babyface from what I saw. And that series is great. Bruno is probably a tad underrated as a worker, he's very good at garnering maximum -- as in all-time loudest -- heat, is more effective than Backlund in generating sympathy and has a rough and tumble style that is all its own, like a Angered Gorilla. He wouldn't be making any lists based on his technical ability or matches though. And if he makes mine, it'll be through the intangibles and variety ratings. He will be borderline.

Some people, it seems to me, only go on their initial instincts which can lead to a skewed perspective. Blackwell will make my list, but he's just exactly the sort of guy who will fiat straight into many people's top 40s without much thought. And in my view, if there wasn't going to be much thought, we might as well have shipped our Top 100s two years ago.

In Hennig's case I disagree with the narrative that people here have pushed that he was better as a babyface. To me, it seems like he didn't find his feet as a worker in AWA until 1986-7, and he was more accomploshed as a performer by the time he reached the WWF. He has poor offense in WWF, but is very good at several other aspects of the performance, which are lacking in his younger days. I've still not seen the Portland stuff and will likely spend a night watching Buddy matches before deadline.

I'd agree that the phrase is very ill-considered.

You can do what you want with your list. Andre is someone who seems to be praised for his best moments but not criticised for his many many many disappointing ones.

Why is Andre 9th on you list? Have you watched all the MSG and Philly matches? Or are you basing this entirely on the 30 second squashes against Warrior?

So many terrible matches.

Andre has so many disappointing matches it is quite incredible. Was a long talking point about this on last Titans. Another guy who gets a very easy run of it. I've watch so many crappy Andre matches it's unreal.

Think he gets a ridiculously easy ride all things considered. Able to just surf on good will.

Windham had a better float over suplex and more opportunities to have five star matches with Ric Flair. Also probably a smudge more talented at base. Ted had a better scoop powerslam and a better career overall. Shakes out like this for me: Ted DiBiase Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 6 (79-88) Ability to work different styles / roles 6 Variety 5 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Million Dollar Man) +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Amarillo, WWF, GCW, Mid-South, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 6 1. JYD, 2. Freebirds, 3. Magnum TA, 4. Brad Armstrong, 5. Duggan, 6. Flair, 7. Murdoch, 8. Tenryu, 9. Jumbo, 10. Choshu / Yatsu, 11. Hogan, 12. Savage, 13. Virgil, 14. Jake, 15. Dusty / Dustin Rhodes, 16. Steiners, 17. Harley Race Variety = 17 opponents = 8 35 Barry Windham Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for float-over suplex) = 10 Intangibles 3 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-93 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Flair, 2. Luger, 3. Arn, 4. Tully, 5. Pillman, 6. Sting / Steiners, 7. Murdoch, 8. Midnight Express, 8. Steamboat, 9. 2 Cold Scorpio, 10. Regal Variety = 10 opponents = 5 33 In practice the two-point gap might result in a difference of about ten to fifteen places.

The combination of extremely sound fundamentals, psychology, ability to go with anyone and ability to get anyone over has become an underrated commodity. It is also relatively rare. What interests me is that you say you don't value mechanics but then are extremely high on someone like AJ Styles. What do you value in Styles? His flash? His great matches? His ability to get something out of lesser workers? Wow factor? Goes without saying that I think the comparisons with Brad Armstrong from El-P are way way off base.

Shinya Hashimoto vs. Jushin Thunder Liger (2/24/94) If the narrative of the Choshu 96 match was old vs. young, this one is big vs. small. Or rather fat vs. not fat, or if you want heavyweight vs. junior. Whatever you want to call it, it comes across. This match really benefits from the extra ten mins or so, it's closer to thirty mins than twenty and so they have the extra time for that obligatory NJ early matwork to actually build towards a satisfying climax. The bombs in the finish stretch are great and they pay off because the whole bout is very well paced. It's very well worked and I loved the finish. What an amazing brainbuster. I'd take this over your typical Rey match for sure, and it's about as good as a match worked in these parameters could be. However, Hash really isn't that much bigger than Liger and I kinda wished that they'd have gone for a straight up match a bit more. If I had my way there'd be no such thing as Juniors or Cruiserweights. ****1/2

What glimpses are they? Don't think I've ever seen him In the Outlaw run. Is this early 70s AWA stuff?

Shinya Hashimoto vs. Riki Choshu (8/2/96) This has such a brilliant old man vs. hot young thing vibe. It's Paul Newman vs. Tom Cruise in the Color of Money. It's the old cop back for one last case. And Jesus do they smack the shit out of each other here. This is probably the best Choshu singles match I can recall seeing because it is predominantly strike-based rather than mat-based. The early exchanges do a fantastic job of setting the tone and telling the story. I loved the moment when Hash kicks his leg and Choshu comes back with a massive slap to Hash's face. That's what Choshu can do better than the vast majority of guys to ever step in there: have a moment like that resonate. And really let it sink in and register the full impact. He's a master at that, and we get many moments like it during this one. This is just pure violence and intensity. You can see the sweat smash off them as they connect the lariats and chops. Really fantastic match that feels massive and tells a wonderful story. If Matt D ever wanted an exhibit for his "anti-rate" campaign, this would have to be right there. Loved it. And see, this is a match that would go straight into my top 100. This is pro wrestling right here. ****4/3

Shinya Hashimoto vs. Genichiro Tenryu (2/17/94) People said they want no play by play or description, but just pure analysis and opinion. I can do that. All of this is true, but it still means that out of a match that goes maybe 17 minutes, they spend the first 10 of it on the mat, exchanging basic arm locks and leg locks. Perfectly fine if you are going 30 mins+, but this was basically a sprint. This is where the NJ stuff always seems to compare badly to the AJ stuff for me. This should have been a five star classic, but it's not by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, intensity, yes stiffness. Yes basic matwork. Yes, Tenryu is the most disdainful mother fucker who ever walked the planet. But the match is too short and they just don't do enough stuff to fill up the time. I am also not entirely sure what the story of this match was apart from the big finish. Hash kept Tenryu grounded, for the most part preventing bombs. When Tenryu was on top, he did his disdainful kicks. It's not exactly a psychological masterpiece. Good fun, but I just don't see this going in the conversation with the Steamboat-Flairs, Kawada-Misawas or Jumbo-Tenryus. Match just wasn't good enough. Great for what it is, but no better. A match like this would have no chance of making my top 100. ****

Which ones have changed? Glad to see you review so many matches. Just to be clear, are the star ratings yours or Meltzers? Only one I disagree strongly on is Flair vs. Sting. I know Kris Z still defends that match, but for me it's the most rote and by the numbers Flair match ever. I don't genrally give out snowflakes for what a match did in history or what happened after. As an example, also low on Race vs. Flair Starrcade 83 and high on something like Hogan vs. Bock which is traditionally maligned because of the booking.

I don't really understand what the last two posts in this thread are trying to say.

I think it's probably a mistake to criticise Hogan or Valiant for that. Or Dusty. There were always two different types of babyface: 1. Technical babyfaces. Cleaner than clean. On one end of this spectrum you'd have someone like Verne or Dory Jr as a fact. On the other end you'd have your blowjobs like Steamboat, Martel, and all the tagteams. Jack Brisco was somewhere in betweeen. 2. Hero of the people. The Crusher, Dick the Bruiser, Dusty, Hogan, Jimmy Valiant, Duggan ... The distinction should be clear. Generally also, the first group were "scientitific" wrestlers and the second group were "brawlers".